Is 25i NBOMe Neurotoxic?

[jacktheripper42]

Thanks for your input man, I appreciate the detailed response and suggestions.

How are we certain that 5ht2a receptors don't face the same conformation alteration as the GABA ones?

Also, if the conformation of my receptors got altered by the highly potent 25i NBOMe would they all just be internalized and degraded? I just want to know be certain that these receptors are in perfect condition and are able to bind to the serotonin provided.

What if the NBOMe altered the conformation and now my serotonin doesn't fit in there which causes my anxiety/depression.

It's this thought that has been bothering me significantly. Is it even possible to alter the conformation of serotonin receptors with a really potent full agonist such as 25I NBOMe?

 

[Xorkoth]

I believe you have developed a fixation on this idea, when what you need to do is just stop thinking about it ewither way and get on with your life. Anxiety and stress can cause your brain to work very differently. When I was in an emotionally abusive relationship and addicted to opiates for 10 years, over time it got to where I felt like I was a shell of my former self. I felt stupid and slow and mired in a soup of numbness all the time. I felt like I was destroyed. But once the stress of that was removed

NBOMes can cause some short-term aftereffects, like any drug can, because they're powerful mind-altering drugs. It's totally in the normal range of experiences to feel a little off for a short time afterwards. But you have the power to shape your mind, either positively or negatively. You say "I can't live with the thoughts that I might have permanently damaged my brain"... this is a very powerful statement, and it concerns me. It's also not necessary... even if you HAD permanently damaged your brain, you HAVE to live with it, the brain is malleable, people even recover from traumatic brain injury. Thinking about whether you damaged your brain or not to the extent that you are is gaining you nothing, it's hurting you, and it doesn't change anything anyway.

But you didn't permanently damage your brain. You're just feeling an intense level of stress and your brain is having a hard time dealing with it. The cause of this stress is internal, it's caused by your obsessive thoughts about whether or not you have damaged your brain.

If you can't stop thinking about it after really thinking about what I've said (and others have said), I would suggest seeking some therapy. Have you had problems fixating on things at other times in life? Some people have more difficulty controlling their thoughts than others, it's just part of personality, but therapy can help with stuff like that. We're all just learning to deal with ourselves our whole lives. You're fine man, believe that and you'll be fine.

 

[Solipsis]

All of that seconded ^ and no Nichols isn't going to lie to you, that stuff makes no sense. It's the paranoia talking, the anxiety.

Have faith that it will be alright and take excellent care of your health, avoid drugs. Don't get hooked on benzo's. Best of luck dude...

There are others who get fixated on this idea for a while that they damaged their brain. The mind/body distinction is tricky and confusing at times, I think you're having psychological problems and you may think knowing what is causing it (organically you might assume) would take some of the anxiety away perhaps also that you might be able to fix it better. A lot may be irrational and translating to mostly a feeling of just needing to know.

Consider it known as per your other post: it's settled this thread considered. I didn't know Nichols was aware of the conformational details but I definitely could have known since the whole research aim is receptor probing. So forget about me fantasizing out loud.

You would do well to just let as much as this go as you possibly can (which should help you more than pursuing this in the first place), just focus your effort on your health via sleeping, eating, being outside, staying active and leading a fulfilling life as much as you can.. balanced. Understandable if this is a big challenge, and don't feel bad about not being there, but if you want to focus your unrest just reinforce good habits and beyond that remember that time heals wounds.

 

[Xorkoth]

Also I want to say, depression and anxiety are normal to go through for periods of time for everyone. They're generally a signal that you need to grow in some way or make a change. And like I mentioned in my last post, they can cause a wide variety of difficulty and change int eh way you feel and function, but this is a normal part of the human experience.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

How are we certain that 5ht2a receptors don't face the same conformation alteration as the GABA ones?

I just want to know be certain that these receptors are in perfect condition and are able to bind to the serotonin provided.

GABA-A channels are composed of different subunits that can be pieced together differently to give rise to different GABA-A receptors, but a 5-HT2A receptor is just a 5-HT2A receptor. They are recycled all the time.

There are lots of drugs that block 5-HT2A and even cause internalization (inverse agonists) and many people do well on these therapeutic drugs, so I wouldn't want you thinking that 5-HT2A is critical for mental health or anything.

Downregulation/desensitization of 5-HT2A is even part of the therapeutic response of SSRIs, and 5-HT2A blockade is a feature of many successful psychiatric meds. So try not to tunnel vision on 5-HT2A, among other things.

I urge you to learn mindfulness. I think it has a lot to offer someone in your shoes.

Regretting the past and worrying about the future is a common feature for someone who has adverse effects and I think it's really important to address that with mindfulness.

It may never be clear why a drug experience brings somebody's mental illness above threshold but I am of the opinion that for many people, the mental illness has been riding underneath the surface for years.

Now it's come to the surface so that we may deal with it. For many people, this means mindfulness, therapy, cardio and appropriate psychiatric meds if deemed necessary.

 

[jacktheripper42]

Thanks for the replies, both of you. This community is very caring and I'm thankful for that . I'll definitely try to incorporate mindfulness and exercise into my daily life.

I don't know why I'm being so skeptical about the entire thing, my mind is coming up with every reason to believe that my brain is damaged and the conformation of the receptors got permanently altered thus making it harder for serotonin to bind. I wish I never did research on 25i and how it's '100 times' the potency of LSD on such critical serotonin receptors. This just makes me feel flat out uncomfortable. I get so anxious thinking that I damaged the one brain I was born with and now I'm going to be doomed with a life filled with mental health problems. Maybe it's all just nocebo and me thinking that my brain is damaged is the cause of all my problems.

The uncertainty revolving this matter is what's been bothering me. It's not possible to actually go inside the brain and see what the conformation of these receptors are. I wish there was a piece of direct and unbiased evidence that directly shows that 25i NBOMe does not have any long term effects on the brain. I guess I have to entirely live in the moment and stop ruminating on my past experience/ predicting a future of heavy anxiety/depression.

These past couple of days I've been thinking about how my life could have been different if I never did the 25i NBOMe. I feel as if my mind is set on the idea that I'm going to have to face a life sentence of sorts because I ruined my 5ht2a receptors and their binding potential. When I'm watching T.V. or even in class, I've been becoming envious of other people and their 'NBOMe free' brains. It's so frustrating having something like this in the back of my mind at all times. I sometimes think what if my anxiety and depression gets out of my control because of some sort of organic damage that is irreparable. This is what's really been getting at me. The idea of being perma-fried is the worst kind of reality that I can imagine.

I need to really work on alleviating my feelings of frustration and bitterness. I keep thinking about how different my life would have been and this just makes me more sad. Also, something to note of, I was pretty fine my senior year of highschool after I took the NBOMe and my problems really started in the summer after my first year of college. In this first year of college, I did 25i/c another two times. The summer following these two trips, I definitely developed an anxiety disorder of some sort. I reached my lowest point in the semester following that summer break, but eventually I made a recovery by keeping an entirely positive outlook. I got a job as a waiter and I was set on constantly improving myself and my well-being.

Fast forward to March of this year, I began doing research on the NBOMe's and I started to get worried that I might have inflicted some sort of permanent damage on my serotonin system by taking the substance. I even emailed Dr. Nichols about it and this is the response he gave me: "The compound is not capable of producing organic “brain damage.” People who have died after taking it had seizures and hyperthermia, probably related to its high potency at 5-HT2A receptors. Reading other’s people’s symptoms is an easy way to convince yourself that you also have their problems. If the NBOMe had caused your anxiety/depression issues they likely would have occurred soon after your use of the compound, not a year or two later. Depression and anxiety are some of the most common psychiatric disorders, with as many as 20% of people suffering from them at some time in their life. I believe you can be fairly sure that what you are experiencing is endogenous, meaning that it was not induced by the NBOMe. Being a university student can be high stress, as you know, and anxiety and depression can occur as a result of stress or stressful life events.

My bottom line? Relax and quit worrying. I don’t think your NBOMe experience is causing you problems now. I would not, however, take any NBOMe compounds again; they can be toxic."

I should have just taken his advise and stopped all research regarding this matter but I went on to reddit and posted about this and some guy named 'psychedmind' talked about how the full agonism displayed on the 5ht2a receptors by the 25i NBOMe could potentially cause permanent damage affecting mental health. This is what really started to freak me out and I started to make many threads on reddit regarding 25i and its potential negativee effects on mental health.

Now I'm here, May 17th, 2017, talking to you all about this problem that I have. I'm so thankful that you guys are here as a supportive community and are willing to provide any input in order for me to get better.

What do you guys think about my entire situation? You guys think it's settled that 25i is not neurotoxic and can not permanently alter the conformation of 5ht2a receptors? I really need to close this chapter in my life and get over this worry. It's been really deteriorating my health and destroying any sense of willpower I have.

 

[jacktheripper42]

Also.. I just went into the bathroom and I turned the lights off and stared at my toilet for 20 seconds and noticed that it started warping and breathing. This is only noticable if there's dark lighting and I focus on one object for a prolonged period of time. Do you guys think I could have a form of HPPD maybe? My friend who also took this substance developed epilepsy recently and he's been put on Keppra. Ever since he started that medication, he said he's felt a lot more control of his life and anxiety.

 

[cj187]

I agree with everyone else, you just need to stop worrying about it. Years ago, when I took a high dose of LSD for the first time, I had experienced the same thing you're going through now. I was convinced that I had completely ruined my life and I would never be the same again. When I woke up every morning, it was the first thing I would think about, and I would immediately be consumed with dread and despair. I had trouble thinking clearly because I was constantly worrying about whether I could think clearly.

Over the following weeks, I thought about it less and less, and I felt completely normal again after few months. Just give it time. Taking psychedelics again was a big part of what helped me get better. People will tell you to abstain from drugs for a while, and while I won't say that's bad advice, it can be very therapeutic to trip again.

Also, no, you don't have HPPD.

 

[Xorkoth]

I remember as a kid, way before drugs, that I could stare at things and they would start to completely transform after 15 seconds or so. I always thought it was really cool. Visual anomalies are normal, we just often don't notice them.

I even emailed Dr. Nichols about it and this is the response he gave me: "The compound is not capable of producing organic “brain damage.” People who have died after taking it had seizures and hyperthermia, probably related to its high potency at 5-HT2A receptors. Reading other’s people’s symptoms is an easy way to convince yourself that you also have their problems. If the NBOMe had caused your anxiety/depression issues they likely would have occurred soon after your use of the compound, not a year or two later. Depression and anxiety are some of the most common psychiatric disorders, with as many as 20% of people suffering from them at some time in their life. I believe you can be fairly sure that what you are experiencing is endogenous, meaning that it was not induced by the NBOMe. Being a university student can be high stress, as you know, and anxiety and depression can occur as a result of stress or stressful life events.

My bottom line? Relax and quit worrying. I don’t think your NBOMe experience is causing you problems now. I would not, however, take any NBOMe compounds again; they can be toxic."

I should have just taken his advise and stopped all research regarding this matter but I went on to reddit and posted about this and some guy named 'psychedmind' talked about how the full agonism displayed on the 5ht2a receptors by the 25i NBOMe could potentially cause permanent damage affecting mental health. This is what really started to freak me out and I started to make many threads on reddit regarding 25i and its potential negativee effects on mental health.

I mean, whose word are you going to take? One of the most brilliant scientists in psychedelic work, the guy who invented the NBOMes and has done by far the most research on them of any human? Or some random guy on the Internet?

What do you guys think about my entire situation? You guys think it's settled that 25i is not neurotoxic and can not permanently alter the conformation of 5ht2a receptors? I really need to close this chapter in my life and get over this worry. It's been really deteriorating my health and destroying any sense of willpower I have.

Between your descriptions of how obsessed you have become about this, and the replies given to you by Dr. Nichols, I would say that definitively you are making this problem for yourself. You are causing yourself intense amounts of anxiety and stress by believing you have a life sentence of mental disorders. Mental disorders, when they aren't genetic, are caused by our own thought patterns over a long period of time. For example, childhood trauma can cause people to develop avoidant coping strategies, and over the course of many years, this leads to things such as PTSD or worse. But it's not due to physical damage to the brain, it's due to maladaptive thought patterns. What you are experiencing right now is destructive thought patterns, and you need to break them. The only thing "wrong" with you is that you can't let go of this. The anxiety from it is making you feel bad, and the bad feelings are reinforcing your belief that you've damaged yourself.

I will say again, if you can't move past this yourself you need to see a therapist about it, because if you manage to actually convince yourself you're permanently damaged for good, that's how you're gonna keep feeling.

It goes without saying (I hope) that you should not do any drugs, even weed, until this is resolved. Actually especially weed, as it is known to cause anxiety and thought loops.

 

[jacktheripper42]

I've been trying my best to move on from this but it seems to have become an obsession that is hard to shake off. I keep getting intrusive thoughts of the 25i blasting my 5ht2a receptors and altering their conformation, making it impossible for serotonin to bind. This is the response that I recently got from Dr. Nichols:

"The conformation of the receptors does change when an agonist binds, but when it dissociates (as ALL noncovalent agonists do) the receptor returns to its native conformation. If you knew any biochemistry you would know that. Receptors are not like hard plastic, that when you hit it with a hammer it fractures or breaks. They are more like rubber bands, which stretch and then when the tension is gone they return to their original shape. And unlike rubber bands, they don’t snap when they are “stretched” too far. Your 5HT2A receptor have all returned to their native shapes/conformations, a long time ago."

I'm just wondering why my 150 mg dose of Zoloft isn't working as well as it should be. I just have a feeling that the serotonin isn't binding properly into my 5HT2A receptors.

The point that soliprisis brought up about how he wonders how people respond to medication after their NBOMe trips has been bothering me a lot. If my receptors were working properly then why isn't my Zoloft getting me out of this slump that I've found myself in?

I feel so hopeless... even with Dr. Nichols' replied. I just feel as if he's stating that the compound can not cause irreversible neurotoxic damage so that there is less liability on his part. Hundreds of thousands of people could potentially be inflicted by some sort of permanent brain damage that isn't fixable.

This is my biggest worry.. maybe I'm just being too paranoid and skeptical and assuming the worst of everyone and the situation I'm in.

What do you guys think?

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

5-HT2A overstimulation upon commencement of SSRIs could actually be a source of some of the initiation related side effects like emotional numbing, and once again people don't get your symptoms from 5-HT2A antagonism, so I'm really not understanding the logic behind obsessing over your 5-HT2A receptors.

Not to transfer your obsession over to something else, but the receptors are just there to help the neurons and glia communicate with each other, it's the brain cells themselves that actually matter.


There are many reasons why somebody could have an altered response to SSRIs or other drugs.

There are also many reasons why it can take many weeks for a person to respond to an SSRI (the beneficial effects are not from acutely increasing serotonin, and SSRIs don't really even acutely increase serotonin at first).

Many people have to try multiple antidepressants before they find one that works for their symptoms. It's thought that the OCD dose for SSRIs is higher than the antidepressant dose and that it can take longer to respond to it.


There are also depressives for whom SSRIs don't cut the mustard, as well as people who should take another class of drug like a mood stabilizer (e.g. Lamotrigine, which has seen some success in treating other drug use related neurosis and illness).

Try to relax. You're going to be okay. How long have you been taking the Zoloft?

 

[jacktheripper42]

So the neurons and glia communicate with another. Are you indicating that I could possibly have neuronal/glia damage from the incredibly potent 25i NBOMe? I've been on a 100 mg dose of Zoloft for a while now, maybe a year now? I recently got upped to 150 mg.

I just really hope this is in my control entirely. If I can get over the notion of brain damage causing my problems, I'll feel a lot better.

I hate uncertainty and I've had issues with obsessing on things like this in the past.

 

[Volsam]

There are also depressives for whom SSRIs don't cut the mustard, as well as people who should take another class of drug like a mood stabilizer (e.g. Lamotrigine, which has seen some success in treating other drug use related neurosis and illness).

Try to relax. You're going to be okay.

^^^I think the same way. Brain has a lot of plasticity, as I understand, in terms of repairing itself over time if you provide good conditions for it.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

So the neurons and glia communicate with another. Are you indicating that I could possibly have neuronal/glia damage from the incredibly potent 25i NBOMe?

Jesus lol, you sure have an obsession with "damage", which is a word I hear thrown around a lot when somebody has adverse effects.

But the most important thing to understand about the brain is that it's all about neuroplasticity and operating in different modes. You can experience a profound change in subjective experience without any damage. Someone can also have a severe stroke and make a great recovery. Or you can have half your brain removed as a child and still turn out pretty normal as an adult.

If you're a cat you can have your whole cortex removed and still be pretty normal.

Anywho, I've never understood why people assume adverse effects are due to neurotoxicity or an otherwise "irreversible" change in neurology, but it's really important to get out of that mindset by appreciating neuroplasticity and recognizing what proclivities you had beforehand (if there was some pre-existing anxiety/OCD.

Mental illness like anxiety and depression are entirely treatable but different methods work better for some people. I have a feeling that mindfulness will be the ticket for you.

I would start by downloading an app called Headspace to learn the basics, but there are also guided meditations on YouTube. Mindfulness with an anchor like the breath would be good, I wouldn't try any real visualization type stuff personally.


The brain is like a muscle in the "what you use grows stronger and what you don't use grows weaker" sense. People often assume that mental illnesses, especially mental illness after drugs, is due to part of the brain being too weak or "damaged".

I think a lot of people's issues are actually due to some areas and networks being too strong. But that can still *feel* like "damage" and make you feel fried.

An analogy is that a lot of people have back pain not because some muscles are too weak, but rather some muscles are too tight and strong. But most people assume that their back pain is due to a straight up disk herniation et cetera, and that it's irreversible. A lot of humans have a habit towards this kind of thinking, but we have to be on guard for it.

 

[jacktheripper42]

Jesus lol, you sure have an obsession with "damage", which is a word I hear thrown around a lot when somebody has adverse effects.

But the most important thing to understand about the brain is that it's all about neuroplasticity and operating in different modes. You can experience a profound change in subjective experience without any damage. Someone can also have a severe stroke and make a great recovery. Or you can have half your brain removed as a child and still turn out pretty normal as an adult.

If you're a cat you can have your whole cortex removed and still be pretty normal.

Anywho, I've never understood why people assume adverse effects are due to neurotoxicity or an otherwise "irreversible" change in neurology, but it's really important to get out of that mindset by appreciating neuroplasticity and recognizing what proclivities you had beforehand (if there was some pre-existing anxiety/OCD.

Mental illness like anxiety and depression are entirely treatable but different methods work better for some people. I have a feeling that mindfulness will be the ticket for you.

I would start by downloading an app called Headspace to learn the basics, but there are also guided meditations on YouTube. Mindfulness with an anchor like the breath would be good, I wouldn't try any real visualization type stuff personally.


The brain is like a muscle in the "what you use grows stronger and what you don't use grows weaker" sense. People often assume that mental illnesses, especially mental illness after drugs, is due to part of the brain being too weak or "damaged".

I think a lot of people's issues are actually due to some areas and networks being too strong. But that can still *feel* like "damage" and make you feel fried.

An analogy is that a lot of people have back pain not because some muscles are too weak, but rather some muscles are too tight and strong. But most people assume that their back pain is due to a straight up disk herniation et cetera, and that it's irreversible. A lot of humans have a habit towards this kind of thinking, but we have to be on guard for it.

Cool, thanks for your input man. Yeah the thought permanent damage scares the hell out of me. So 25I doesn't have permanent tolerance and it can not alter the conformation of receptors. So in reality I should be fine right? I hate when the thoughts 'permanent damage' 'Darwinism' or '100 times the potency of LSD on 5ht2a'.

I need to regain my self-respect for myself. I constantly view myself as someone with a damaged serotonin system who is somewhat hopeless due to some damage that is irreparable. I think I'm just being way too hard on myself though. I struggle with these intrusive thoughts and I think about all the different posts and etc that people have posted on after effects and permanent damage. It's so strange how obsessive my mind can be sometimes.

All your input has been really good. I guess I'm just psyching myself out really bad with the thought that I could be 'permafried'. It's when I think this thought that my anxiety starts kicking in. I notice myself sweating more and my veins start to pop out in my hands. I also kind have a sense of dread and "what's the point mentality"

I have to work on these thoughts and really get over them. If other people have done a ton of 25i and have ended up fine, I'll be ok

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

All agonists change the conformation of receptors, including serotonin itself, otherwise a receptor would never be activated the thing is that the ligand unbinds and then the receptor returns to normal or the receptor just gets recycled and a fresh one pops up.

Some drugs bind irreversibly, like risperidone (antipsychotic) to 5-HT7 receptors and I've seen people freak out about this before funnily enough, but the important thing to realize is that this doesn't permanently delete all 5-HT7 receptors or whatever else people catastrophize about - your brain makes new ones all the time and recycles old ones. And blocking 5-HT7 is a good thing for depression anyways.

LSD, unlike 25i/Nbomes, actually binds pseudoirreversibly to 5-HT2A (I'll bet you'll be worrying about this shortly) often triggering receptor internalization because it stays bound for so long. Yet people have been taking LSD for ages and problems are rare, and people see the same exact problems from other 5-HT2A agonists that don't bind for very long, and other drugs that don't even bind to 5-HT2A like cannabis and dissosiciatives (ketamine and DXM).

Not to mention people can have severe mental illness without having ever touched drugs and you certainly seem to have had something going on beforehand. So I definitely wouldn't be thinking about 5-HT2A.

Instead I would think about the default mode network, essentially a rumination network. Some people have an inner monologue that is much too strong.

The voice in the head just talks 24/7, often spewing neurotic thoughts. These thoughts really affect the way we feel. Try to address that over-thinking and over-analyzing with mindfulness.

Imagine for a moment that all your thoughts were played on a loudspeaker. That guy walking down the street talking to himself is clearly mentally ill, right? Well we talk to ourselves in our heads all day long. This could result in particular neurobiology that is conducive to anxiety/depression et cetera, but you can reverse this with mindfulness and decrease the power of the default mode network.

Of course the rumination and thought patterns can take some time to break because they are often life long habits, but I really think mindfulness is your golden ticket. Some medications can also help with this as well, and some medications can make the rumination worse occasionally. Always something to talk to a doc about.

For what it's worth there was this guy who always raved about 25i, it was his absolute favorite psychedelic, he used it all the time and he was in perfect mental health. It's definitely not something specific to 25i.

 

[jacktheripper42]

All agonists change the conformation of receptors, including serotonin itself, otherwise a receptor would never be activated the thing is that the ligand unbinds and then the receptor returns to normal or the receptor just gets recycled and a fresh one pops up.

Some drugs bind irreversibly, like risperidone (antipsychotic) to 5-HT7 receptors and I've seen people freak out about this before funnily enough, but the important thing to realize is that this doesn't permanently delete all 5-HT7 receptors or whatever else people catastrophize about - your brain makes new ones all the time and recycles old ones. And blocking 5-HT7 is a good thing for depression anyways.

LSD, unlike 25i/Nbomes, actually binds pseudoirreversibly to 5-HT2A (I'll bet you'll be worrying about this shortly) often triggering receptor internalization because it stays bound for so long. Yet people have been taking LSD for ages and problems are rare, and people see the same exact problems from other 5-HT2A agonists that don't bind for very long, and other drugs that don't even bind to 5-HT2A like cannabis and dissosiciatives (ketamine and DXM).

Not to mention people can have severe mental illness without having ever touched drugs and you certainly seem to have had something going on beforehand. So I definitely wouldn't be thinking about 5-HT2A.

Instead I would think about the default mode network, essentially a rumination network. Some people have an inner monologue that is much too strong.

The voice in the head just talks 24/7, often spewing neurotic thoughts. These thoughts really affect the way we feel. Try to address that over-thinking and over-analyzing with mindfulness.

Imagine for a moment that all your thoughts were played on a loudspeaker. That guy walking down the street talking to himself is clearly mentally ill, right? Well we talk to ourselves in our heads all day long. This could result in particular neurobiology that is conducive to anxiety/depression et cetera, but you can reverse this with mindfulness and decrease the power of the default mode network.

Of course the rumination and thought patterns can take some time to break because they are often life long habits, but I really think mindfulness is your golden ticket. Some medications can also help with this as well, and some medications can make the rumination worse occasionally. Always something to talk to a doc about.

For what it's worth there was this guy who always raved about 25i, it was his absolute favorite psychedelic, he used it all the time and he was in perfect mental health. It's definitely not something specific to 25i.

Wow thanks so much Cotcha, you seem very knowledgeable about this matter. It's nice getting reassurance from you as well. Ok, so one more thing. 5ht2a receptors are involved in the development of Schizophrenia and OCD. Could it be possible that my experiment with a high affinity full agonist such as 25i NBOMe on the 5ht2a receptors could have possibly made me more vulnerable to these psychiatric disorders? I don't think I had any mental illness' before I took my NBOMe, I was always the most optimistic kid and always happy. Maybe it's also just growing up and having more worries as an adult.
It really sucks having to deal with this and having it in the back of my mind at all times.

It's like a thought loops in my head and I automatically assume I got OCD from doing 25i and its action on the 5ht2a receptors. Or if I'm becoming more and more anxious, I think that the 25i caused this too and I'm bound to get something as awful as Schizophrenia.

Does high potency full agonism on these receptors increase my risk for OCD or Schizophrenia at all? I sometimes worry that my anti-psychotic medication won't work due to some alteration in these receptors from the 25i NBOMe. I know you stated that the receptors conformation goes back to normal/they get recycled, but is there any possibility that this could have occurred and made me more susceptible to these two psychiatric disorders. I'm just worried that the anti-psychotic medication that works on 5HT2a receptors won't be able to fit into the receptor as a result of the conformation permanently being stuck in one way. It's 100% guaranteed that receptor conformation can not be stuck in one position? It just reverts back to normal conformation like a rubber-band as Dr. Nichols stated? "The conformation of the receptors does change when an agonist binds, but when it dissociates (as ALL noncovalent agonists do) the receptor returns to its native conformation. If you knew any biochemistry you would know that. Receptors are not like hard plastic, that when you hit it with a hammer it fractures or breaks. They are more like rubber bands, which stretch and then when the tension is gone they return to their original shape. And unlike rubber bands, they don’t snap when they are “stretched” too far. Your 5HT2A receptor have all returned to their native shapes/conformations, a long time ago."


Thanks so much dude, you're really helping me out here.

I don't know if these symptoms are from actual physical damage or the fact that I THINK I did permanent physical damage and that's what is psyching me out.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Schizophrenia has very little to do with 5-HT2A, it's a neurodevelopmental disorder that is largely genetic in origin. I definitely wouldn't worry about that lol.

But people develop anxiety and obsessive thoughts left and right. No drugs needed, our society is great at producing anxious and neurotic people!

"I sometimes worry that my anti-psychotic medication won't work due to some alteration in these receptors from the 25i NBOMe."

You mean to say that you take an antipsychotic? Antipsychotics can help a lot of people with obsessive thinking and intrusive thoughts. But just FYI, an SSRI is definitely not an antipsychotic and can cause hypomania in some people.

But yes your receptors themselves are totally fine I'm sure, your brain just needs some time to rebalance itself and normalize.

Mindfulness + therapy + appropriate medication + cardio + sleep + diet

Rumination really is your word of the day

 

[jacktheripper42]

Nah I'm taking 150 mg of Zoloft but I got a recommendation that I should look into anti-psychotics to deal with obsessive ruminating thoughts. I was way better before I started doing research and I could actually fall asleep and stuff. Now after doing research my mind wants to believe I made some sort of sinister discovery that I permanently damaged my serotonin system by doing 25i NBOMe and its super high potency and full agonism displayed on the 5HT2A receptors. I was sleeping so much better and dealing with my anxiety a lot better before I started doing the research. I was even pretty confident and answering questions in a college lecture classroom in front of a bunch of people.

Ever since I looked up 25i Brain Damage and stuff and read other people developing panic disorders etc. this started to become my own reality. I've been becoming more and more anxious and finding it harder to sleep because I've been ruminating left and right about the potential permanent damage. Like dude there's a thread called "25i Brain fry cumpilation" that includes a bunch of quotes of people describing a brain fried feeling after their trip. Is this just from receptor internalization and downregulation? I just hate the fact that there's so many people experiencing adverse affects after consuming this substance. Maybe all these people just had bad trips? The thought that I ruined the one brain I was born with makes me feel really uncomfortable.

The thing that does provide me comfort is the fact that I was semi-fine before I started doing research. Rumination is disgusting and it causes bitterness and a sense of despair. I'm just viewing my 25i experience as a permanent mark on my brain. I just hope I can still be really functional after doing this research and reading other people's after-effects too.

I wish I never did research on this stuff, its deeply ingrained in my subconscious now, I guess the best way to stop it is to absolutely stop all research and attempts at achieving reassurance.

Appreciate your help Cotcha, any farther input is appreciated

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

People get these syndromes and anxiety from all sorts of drugs, but when you have billions of people on a planet you can certainly find a mega thread of people having xyz symptoms from whatever drug. If you only see the 25i thread because that's what you were looking for, then you may assume it's something specific to that drug, but that's far from reality.

The thing is that your story is pretty common - the anxiety only really sets in after researching thing.

I talked with a guy who had this after a different drug for a long time (did a drug, was fine for a while, then started reading and got obsessive/anxious) and he went on to fully recover with mindfulness (he ended up going to a mindfulness retreat and practicing mindfulness a lot, with results coming slowly but surely).

He researched a lot and had to be convinced over and over that he hadn't done "permanent damage". Then he started worrying he was doing permanent damage to his serotonin with SSRIs. Trust me, your story is common.

What doesn't help is that people freak out over the "synthetic drug" bit, listen to yourself here for example

"25i NBOMe and its super high potency and full agonism displayed on the 5HT2A receptors."

But cannabis is "natural", yet it can cause intense depersonalization and psychosis in some who are predisposed to it or who have a bad experience on it. Same with feeling off for a while after a bad trip. Or drugs aside, feeling off for a while after a traumatic experience or an emotional loss. No super potent full agonism at 5-HT2A required