[Support] Help PD write warning announcements for the 25X-NBOMe threads

[Xorkoth]

I could try to write it when we outline what should be said and in what order. It would probably be good to do that.

I agree we should mention, in addition to other things, that there are better and safer substances to begin with than these. An informal appeal to be careful and sensible combined with information and warnings would probably be most well-received and thus, most effectively communicated.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/649693-Apex-student-dies-after-taking-LSD-another-teen-charged

This thread isn't 100% related but it has a good tie in: People are getting killed. To the gentleman above, is cimbi-36 = 25b? because these deaths just seem to keep coming at doses under 10mg, and I'm baffled for an explanation if the Therapeutic index indicates it would take much more

I'm wondering that too. Climbi-36 isn't expressly cited as 25B in the article you sourced, as far as I could tell they only mention N-bezylated PEAs once. If it is in fact 25B, that's some intriguing stuff, that trials were approved for it and all.

 

[tryp2fun]

I'm wondering that too. Climbi-36 isn't expressly cited as 25B in the article you sourced, as far as I could tell they only mention N-bezylated PEAs once. If it is in fact 25B, that's some intriguing stuff, that trials were approved for it and all.

Cimbi-36 is in fact 25B. It was used with C-11 labeling in order to image serotonin receptors in brain. C-11 is a positron emitter with a half life of 20 minutes, so it is ideal for PET (positron emission tomography) scanning. Here is the paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21174090. You have to be able to download the paper to see that it is 25B. This work is being done in Copenhagen. Cimbi stands for Center for Integrated Molecular Brain Imaging.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

Cimbi-36 is in fact 25B. It was used with C-11 labeling in order to image serotonin receptors in brain. C-11 is a positron emitter with a half life of 20 minutes, so it is ideal for PET (positron emission tomography) scanning. Here is the paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21174090. You have to be able to download the paper to see that it is 25B. This work is being done in Copenhagen. Cimbi stands for Center for Integrated Molecular Brain Imaging.

Very interesting. I still wouldn't touch any Nbomes with a ten and a half foot pole right now though; the sheer amount of damage I've seen with my own eyes from these drugs makes me glad they've been made illegal.

 

[Incunabula]

In the name of objectivity I must present a few facts which conflict with anecdotal evidence.

Most NBOMe chemicals are highly selective, efficacious, and near full 5ht2 agonist. Similar chemicals (DOx series) have been used in research over a decade and appear to have high therapeutic indexes in animal models in controlled environments. These experiments often involve doses of >.5 mg/kg without death to the specimen. This equates to human doses of ~35mg. The LD50 of DOB (a chemical with near identical binding to most NBOMe chemicals) is >100mg/kg in mice.(2)

25B NBOMe has been extensively studied in rodents, pigs, non-human primates, and humans.(3) 25B NBOMe has been approved for human research and is currently in clinical trials at very low doses.(4) In rodents, pigs, and non human primates intravenous doses equivalent to multi milligram human doses weren't fatal.(3)

I don't doubt people have lost friends after consuming NBOMe chemicals. The evidence appears to support these deaths were not induced directly by 25X NBOMe. In controlled settings the therapeutic index of these types of chemicals surpasses most psychoactives. I agree with Solopsis that in non-controlled settings "there may be some really stealthy" confounding factor we miss leading to death.


References:
(1)http://scholar.google.de/scholar?q=mg/kg&btn+Dimethoxy-4-iodoamphetamine
(2)http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal062.shtml
(3)http://scholar.google.de/scholar?q=cimbi-36+mg/kg&btn
http://scholar.google.de/scholar?q=cimbi-36+OR+25B-NBOMe
(4)http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT01778686
http://cimbi.org/index.php/the-11ccimbi-36-story

What's your agenda? Every time some one criticize NBOMe's, all the pseudoscience buff's comes out of the woodwork spouting Ki values, touting they'e safe if just taken in the right way. A huge heap of dead people beg to differ.

And honestly, I don't see those links you reference as proof of the picture you're painting. That 25B-NBOMe is safe, is a conclusion that you're drawing. It's not worth much more than an anecdote, but nice try with the references.

The people doing the experiments with 25B aren't testing how safe some recreational drug is for you, they're trying to map the serotonin receptors in the brain. And that human experiment was with 1,5 ug. That's like 1/500th part of a recreational dose.

All NBOMe's were invented for real scientific research of the human serotonin system, I think people are completely misguided when they think they can lead anything out of the research that's been done. Had they been invented, researched and tested to be medicines, then yeah, then that would be different. Then we'd know the exact pharmacology of this class of drugs, but at the moment, we don't.

 

[FunctionalOlfactio]

My "agenda" doesn't influence the validity of my assertions. Regardless I state my motive in the first paragraph of my post.

"I agree about the risk of inconsistent physical reactions to NBOMe chemicals. I also believe there are many wonderful chemicals that elicit a more consistent physical response. Both things should be highlighted in some simple, attention grabbing, and lucid way."

I also restate my motive later in my post.

"My recommendation is we suggest people unfamiliar with how their body responds to 5ht2a agonist consider lsd or psilocybin instead."

---

I could try to write it when we outline what should be said and in what order. It would probably be good to do that.

I agree we should mention, in addition to other things, that there are better and safer substances to begin with than these. An informal appeal to be careful and sensible combined with information and warnings would probably be most well-received and thus, most effectively communicated.

You seem to see what I am talking about. I also think you would be a good scribe.

 

[Incunabula]

My "agenda" doesn't influence the validity of my assertions. Regardless I state my motive in the first paragraph of my post.

"I agree about the risk of inconsistent physical reactions to NBOMe chemicals. I also believe there are many wonderful chemicals that elicit a more consistent physical response. Both things should be highlighted in some simple, attention grabbing, and lucid way."

I also restate my motive later in my post.

"My recommendation is we suggest people unfamiliar with how their body responds to 5ht2a agonist consider lsd or psilocybin instead."

And still, what you achieved in this thread already, was making more "naive" people wonder, "gosh, maybe 25B isn't that unsafe after all, scientists are using it for human experiments. And that smart scienceguy posted links that prove it".

That's why I ask to know your agenda.

Your assertions don't have any validity, they are just that, assertions (because you are not Hansen or Nichols in disguise, are you?) But still you want to make them sound like more than what they are. In my opinion you should choose your words and assertions more wisely in the future, if your aim posting here really is harm reduction.

That the scientists mapping the serotonin receptor in the human body considers 25B-NBOMe safe to inject in pigs, which they then kill right after, basically means fuck all. So why bring it up here in the way you do? it has the absolute opposite effect of what this thread is meant for.

Humans aren't pigs in a lab, and when they gave 1,5 ug 25B-NBOMe to a human, it had nothing, what so ever to do with the psychedelic activity that that drug has. It's not psychedelic research.

You have to keep things seperate. That's the whole problem with the whole NBOMe debate. People think that we know a lot about them because we know the Ki affinities, due to them being made and used for real legit research. Well we don't know all about them.

And to my knowledge, no real research has been made what so ever, as to these drugs safety as legal highs. If they had, we wouldn't need this thread.

And likening NBOMe's and DOx's therapeutic indices is also just wrong for so many reasons. Even though many DOx's are almost as potent as the NBOme's, longer lasting, just as stimulating and orally active, they still have caused surprisingly few deaths.

Maybe some one can answer me these questions:

1.What is the pharmacological cause behind the NBOMe deaths?

2.What is the complete pharmacological mechanism of the various NBOMe's?

3.What is the mechanism behind psychedelic activity? (and no, it's not just 5HT2a agonism)

4. And, are all 5HT2a agonists psychedelics?

No? Okay, I thought not. Thanks.

Peace, and light.

Rant over

 

[perpetualdawn]

This stuff is dangerous, and we're going to warn people about it, simple. So, let's move this along.

We're going for a succinct, easily digestible message. Easy to read, easy to understand. I'm going to suggest we use this format, adapted from an earlier post by someone:

"
A short intro paragraph goes here, to summarize in a couple of sentences that there are concerns around the safety of these drugs. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.

Simple bolded message here
-detailed point on this message
-second detailed point on this message

Simple bolded message here
-detailed point on this message
-second detailed point on this message

Simple bolded message here
-detailed point on this message
-second detailed point on this message

A short intro outro goes here, to conclude Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.
"

Can you please contribute to this by either taking a shot at writing this, or at least suggesting what are the key points we want to make.

 

[perpetualdawn]

These are great points. Is there any way we can combine some of them, or distill them down to convey broadly the same information, in less points? I'm thinking if we could target to have 4 or 5 big points, the message might disseminate more effectively.

Here is my suggestion:

25x NBOMe chemicals have killed at "normal" recreational doses
-We don't know how it kills (this becomes sub-point)
-People have died, even when they've done more previously.

Too high doses often lead to psychotic episodes and ER visits
-anecdotes (as sub points?)

These chemicals are mislabeled and sold as LSD or "acid"
-Nbome chemicals can be distinguished from acid (becomes sub point, and we can link to info on how)

25x is difficult to dose properly
-Tolerance builds quickly, but toxicity may still occur.
-Doses are unpredictable and uneven, even from the same sheet.
-mention unknown but proably narrow margin between ED and LD
-Physical and mental responses are unpredictable, even if you've done it before


Further refinements requested! Esp in simplifying langage, details, if you see better way to organize etc..

 

[Xorkoth]

This stuff is dangerous, and we're going to warn people about it, simple. So, let's move this along.

We're going for a succinct, easily digestible message. Easy to read, easy to understand. I'm going to suggest we use this format, adapted from an earlier post by someone:

"
A short intro paragraph goes here, to summarize in a couple of sentences that there are concerns around the safety of these drugs. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.

Simple bolded message here
-detailed point on this message
-second detailed point on this message

Simple bolded message here
-detailed point on this message
-second detailed point on this message

Simple bolded message here
-detailed point on this message
-second detailed point on this message

A short intro outro goes here, to conclude Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.
"

Can you please contribute to this by either taking a shot at writing this, or at least suggesting what are the key points we want to make.

Nice outline. Also, again I'll volunteer to write it, though if someone else wants to try they should go for it. I've applied to mod this forum again so most likely I will be a mod shortly and it would make extra sense for me to do it, but of course one of the mods could just post anyone's written piece here so if you want to give it a shot, go for it.

Let's also put a notice, maybe at the end of the post, to encourage people whose friends or self is having worrisome physical reactions or psychosis to go to the hospital, and not try to ride it out for fear of trouble or needless expense. Enough people have died from these that people should be much more fee wityh going to the hospital. If I were to take, say, 2C-E and get to a point where I feared for my safety, I would be likely to ride it out (in fact I did do this once). However with an NBOMe, I would just go to the ER to be safe if I seriously thought something was wrong. A medical bill to pay is nothing compared to death.

 

[perpetualdawn]

Great Xorkoth, glad you'll take the lead on this. Here is some more writing/refining. Do with it what you will:

"
BOLD TITLE / OVERARCHING MESSAGE
This is a Harm Reduction forum, and it is worrisome to see excessive dosages and combinations involving NBOMe.
Some facts you should know about The NBOMe series:

25x NBOMe chemicals have killed at "normal" recreational doses
-We don't know how it kills (this becomes sub-point)
-People have died, even when they've done more previously.

Too high doses often lead to psychotic episodes and ER visits
-mention the importance of taking someone to ER if suspected of NBOMe over dose
-anecdotes (as sub points?)

These chemicals are mislabeled and sold as LSD or "acid"
-Nbome chemicals can be distinguished from acid (becomes sub point, and we can link to info on how)
-"if it's bitter it's a spitter"

25x is difficult to dose properly
-Tolerance builds quickly, but toxicity may still occur.
-Doses are unpredictable and uneven, even from the same sheet.
-mention unknown but proably narrow margin between ED and LD
-Physical and mental responses are unpredictable, even if you've done it before

NBOMe substances are cheap and widely available, however they are not well understood, and have caused a number of deaths. There are better and safer substances to begin with than these. Final inspiring message of safety goes here!
"

 

[zn13bt]

-Doses are unpredictable and uneven, even from the same sheet.

I think this needs to be highlighted more, maybe move it to the first section? My feeling is this is the main factor in the deaths that have happened.

Another point to add (maybe someone can phrase this better):
- Doubling the dose will be (much) more than double the strength. If you've taken 1 tab in the past, that doesn't mean it'll be ok for you to take 2 now.

It definitely seems like Nbome blotters in the wild are being laid too strong, and inconsistently.

 

[Xorkoth]

Yeah, much too strong, when a single tab is a strong experience for most people, that's good for something like LSD with a wide margin of safety. But bad for something like an NBOMe where 2 tabs literally HAS KILLED someone. That's crazy to lay drugs so strong that 2 could be lethal, and 3 is too strong for pretty much anyone. ESPECIALLY when you lay it on blotter, so it can be mistaken for LSD... because it's absolutely common for people to take 3 LSD hits at once, no problem. People take 10 strips. People take even more than that. It's just so terribly irresponsible and dangerous to lay a drug so strong that anyone who mistakes it for LSD who has plenty of previous experience and is looking for a strong trip will LIKELY end up in serious physical danger, or worse (imagine eating a 10-strip of NBOMe blotter... )

I think the only thing NBOMes have going for them in their safety profile is that they come on pretty quick. Imagine if they took 2 or 3 hours to come on, how many people would redose multiple times and then OD? If they ever develop a long-acting NBOMe, with a typical long-acting slow come-up, I HOPE they will not try to release it to the public.

 

[zn13bt]

Yeah, I think blotter is a terrible way to distribute NBOMes. It might've worked ok if dealers had stuck to a sane dosage, like 300-400ug a hit, but even then a tenstrip would be 3 or 4mg which would still be an overdose for most people. LSD dosing habits just aren't safe at all with NBOMes. They really need to be carefully titrated by each individual user, they're not at all a good drug for mass distribution at parties or festivals.

 

[perpetualdawn]

Maybe one of the messages should be along the lines of: "If you aren't prepared to titrate this drug carefully, these aren't the droids you're looking for". I suppose the target audience of this audience is the kind of person who is quickly doing some research on the chem, the people we want to scare away from it are the slightly reckless user who won't take much time to learn.

 

[Incunabula]

your question of the complete pharmacological question is bs, were really don't know the action of LSD in a Human brain, true we know less about 25x but complete is somethin that ain't gonna happen for a while.

^that was the point I was trying to make. Thank you.

I totally agree with leting this go, it just pisses me off when people think they're oh so clever, and start arguing that NBOMe's aren't really dangerous because of: "insert pseudoscientific yada with reference to 5HT2a something".

You find it in every thread were the dangers of NBOMe are discussed. The notion that people who died, or went to the ER, were just noobs who couldn't handle their trip, and that they "were scared to death" is often more or less subtly implied.

Back on topic, I think perpetualdawn's suggestion for a write up is really good.

 

[Folley]

I think it should be noted that the VAST majority of people have taken 25i with little consequence... and that to minimize risks, it is best to dose sublingually and avoid other RoAs as that can lead to a dangerous potentiation. It is true that they hold a high inherit risk compared to other drugs, but it's not as if they simply can't be used safely.

 

[perpetualdawn]

Obvs this is debatable, but my opinion is that in this message, we don't mention "most people meet little consequence" with nbomes. We are trying to send a message out to the kinds of people who don't dig very deep, who genuinely could put themselves at risk with these, out of ignorance (I don't mean this in an insulting way, we are all ignorant of the things we aren't specialized in).

Anyone participating in this discussion, or reading this thread, is prob smart enough to learn how to consume these chemicals safely. But we need to put a very strong message out to the psychedelic "kindergarten": DONT FUCK AROUND WITH THIS STUFF. When these people begin to learn more about these chems, they can learn how to take them safely, and there is plenty of info about that on here. But I feel we need to erect the Bluelight equivalent of the stadardized warning symbols you see on dangerous materials. So that the kind of people who don't scratch past the surface, who shouldn't be taking this stuff, get the message right off the bat.

 

[Folley]

^ Sure, then again, I don't think we should overstate the dangers either.

 

[Xorkoth]

I agree, we shouldn't overstate the dangers, it's not necessary to overstate them to get the appropriate message across as there are quite a few dangers that are real enough. I also agree we should not say anything about how most people will be fine, because that's an open invitation to anyone who isn't going to do their research to say "well then I'll be fine"