Why do you do PEDs?

[Serotonin101]

This. All day.

Not directly of the fight itself, but the off season it will help tremendously as well as preparing for the fight. Being able to recover more quickly, put on more lean mass AND to preserve it when cutting weight. Also let's not forget when it comes to a striking sport, potent androgens can help with muscle recruitment which is why halo and cheque drops were popular amongst boxers on fight day which I'd be willing to bet @Genetic Freak can verify with his boxing history.

 

[Mycophile]

@Mycophile I’m not even going to read all that because it really isn’t worth the time lol. I’m debating my point from a general objective philosophical viewpoint...not making it personal. That should have been apparent.


But dude...if you get offended over what a guy on the internet says..that is you’re fault, not mine lol. Gotta take offense to be offended which is something I’d never do for anyone.

But, you answered my statement either way but saying

“But i mean, logically i think you could realize that i already knew i had no way of 100 percent knowing whether or not my coach has used PEDs”

Boom. You have no way of knowing 100% that he hasn’t used PEDs. Has he? Probably not. I didn’t say he that probably had, nor do I think he has. But can you say with 100% certainty? Nope.

That was my point.

We can debate all day but, yes, I believe in a more libertarian viewpoint that PEDs are a decision where the primary effects do not impact others and therefore using them in any sport is not morally wrong. Again, some laws and rules are okay to break in our society and some are not so you don’t have an objective standard to say otherwise beyond a personal opinion. Until your belief becomes the majority, we will have PEDs I’m tested sports.

Well, as for most of this i PMd you about it.

But as to the bolded part, the reverse is true for why i started debating with you and the other mod, because you guys said basically ''ALL PRO ATHLETES USE PEDS'' which is not ALWAYS true..

And because I really don't believe you were just saying ''it's possible'' my instructor could have used them'', i actually think you were saying you believe he HAS used them, or else i don't think you'd have brought it up.

I can't be 100 percent sure he hasn't and you can't be 100 percent sure he has, but since i have known him for 20 years and you don't know him at all, it's much more likely that i'm correct.

And my thing really isn't that I am against PEDs, i just think that either everyone should be on them or no one, and while MOST are on them, some aren't.

I would support there being a PED league and a non-PED league, one where we know for sure everyone is on something, and one for sure where we know everyone isn't.

But i personally conduct myself in such a way so as not to go around telling people, online or otherwise, that their friends are probably lying to them about things, because it's not cool, because i honestly don't know, and because it starts arguments.

The fact remains both that the majority of people in pro sports do usually use PEDs, AND that most definitely for sure there are athletes who at least SOMETIMES compete while not on them, and also for sure that there do at least exist rare individuals who have never used them.

I think that anyone who does compete while on PEDs should be fully ok with the possibility that someday it is likely that at least once they will compete against a non-enhanced athlete and not need to justify it by saying ''everyone does it so it's ok''.

They should just be ok with it, whether everyone does or not.

I'm still interested in TRT, though I don't know whether or not i'll ever feel totally safe about it, but i'm going to continue my research, but i do feel sorry for those non-enhanced athletes who for whatever reason don't use and lose to an enhanced athlete when it's against the rules.

Personally, if i was on PEDs and beat someone not on them i think i'd wonder if i was the better athlete that's for sure.

I have done over 33 BJJ tournaments, and I know i have beaten and lost to people on roids, though i can never be sure about all of them.

Whatever, it is what it is, and i understand the nature of the beast, and really fully believe everyone should be allowed to put into their body whatever they want and that any and all drugs should be legal, but it's only when sports come into play that i feel a bit differently.

Peace.

 

[Mycophile]

This. All day.

Of course that is true, but everything is a factor.

If it weren't no one would use PEDs.

I am only 5'7 and 170lbs but have submitted in competition guys outweighing me by a lot.

I triangled a guy who was around 6'2, 250lbs.

In regular every day training, back when i was younger and not injured, i'd go into a room and pick the biggest strongest dudes to roll with and usually tap them out.

I remember once grabbing some huge dude and having an absolute war with him before i caught him in a triangle and later finding out he was on parole for some violent crime and being like ''shit, i'm glad he didn't grab a shank and take it out on me'' hahahha.

We all know that skill is generally the most important thing, but all the attributes come into play from strength, reach, speed, flexibility, agility, diet, stamina, mind set, etc you name it.

And as mentioned, i would also want to take every PED under the sun, and would in a heart beat, if I thought i could do it safely.

Hell, I'd start tomorrow, and even if in some alternate universe i made it to pro, which won't happen cause i'll probably never even do amateur, i bet i could justify my usage even while cheating and be cool with it.

I also know PEDs and roids don't make you super human cause i have tapped out many roided people before.

I know fairly well the reality of the situation, having been around BJJ and MMA for 25 years now.

 

[Hal_1ncandenza]

I feel like BJJ is the least likely combat sport to use peds in. The flow is everything, as long as your cardio is solid and you’re not carrying dead weight.

 

[Mycophile]

Not directly of the fight itself, but the off season it will help tremendously as well as preparing for the fight. Being able to recover more quickly, put on more lean mass AND to preserve it when cutting weight. Also let's not forget when it comes to a striking sport, potent androgens can help with muscle recruitment which is why halo and cheque drops were popular amongst boxers on fight day which I'd be willing to bet @Genetic Freak can verify with his boxing history.

Yeah, that's why i am interested in TRT, and it's only whether or not i feel it is safe, affordable, and will generally always be available to me that is holding me back.

I make decisions like this slowly, so likely it will take me years to decide, and maybe i will and maybe i won't, but i'll never be a pro so i would never be breaking rules.

But especially when it comes to being able to train longer and harder, and even more so with older athletes, all those extra hours you can log, whether it's boxing, muay thai, wrestling, bjj, mma, weight lifting, cardio etc make a HUGE difference.

Number of reps in the end, in any sport, makes the better more prepared athlete, and even without knowing almost anything about PEDs like you guys do, one thing i do know as that at least SOME of them greatly enhance recovery time and allow muscles to rebuild faster.

The guy one all kinds of PEDs can keep training longer and harder while the other guy can't, and in a pretty ruthless sport of inches where at the top everyone is already really really good, those little things matter A LOT.

That is of course why almost everyone does it, and again, i don't blame them.

As said before, I wish there were a PED league for users and a non-PED league for non users, but that will never happen lol.

I'm about as libertarian as it gets when it comes to drugs, believing any and all drugs including heroin or meth or whatever should be legal for all adults, and only in sports do i have any issue at all if a clean athlete is facing a juiced one.

 

[Mycophile]

I feel like BJJ is the least likely combat sport to use peds in. The flow is everything, as long as your cardio is solid and you’re not carrying dead weight.

Not true though.

Most of the top BJJ athletes also use different kinds of PEDs, though you guys would know better than me, but the majority i would assume use the types of PEDs that put on lean mass and increase cardio and not dead weight.

I'm a brown belt who has been training BJJ for 24 years and have competed and rolled many times against juiced guys, i mean, i can't possibly know who was and who wasn't to be honest and only know for sure about a few, but I have done over 33 tournaments and competed in somewhere around 130 matches, both gi and no-gi, and the juicers are out there, especially considering NO ONE is tested in amateur competition, which is all i have done.

Jeff Monson is the most obvious example of a high level BJJ/sub-mission athlete who is roided to the gills, but looking at him you'd know that right away if you ever see him.

Royce Gracie used some kind of steroid in order to beat Sakuraba in their rematch, even though that was MMA and not BJJ, but he's always been the example of the ''skinny drug free guy'' and people are pissed at him still today, less so for doing it and more for continuing to lie about it when it is so obvious he did.

Flow is absolutely the main thing in BJJ, but you want to be able to get in as many reps as possible, and more energy = more reps, and speed and cardio are very important.

Especially in no-gi, which is more my style, athletes want that cardio and the lean muscle mass as well as the cutting agents and explosive strength but they need to make low weights too and those PEDs for cutting help with that.

And lets not forget that at this point BJJ and submission grappling are becoming more and more wrestling-centric, especially no-gi submission grappling which is more my thing.

At this point, BJJ and wrestling are kind of merging together almost into one hybrid sport, especially at my school where my instructor stresses wrestling very heavily, and we all know that a lot of wrestlers juice.

But you are correct that the kinds of guys who are super big and bulky and inflexible are going to have a rough time.

I have rolled with some body builders who were most likely juicing and they never even felt very strong on the mat because they couldn't move well and the fact that they could bench a lot meant nothing and some of them actually feel downright WEAK despite looking and being huge.

Then there are those guys, whether or not they are drug free, who are deceptively strong but you'd never know it.

There's a jiu-jitsu black belt who is legendary in my area because when we all met him he was like 55 years old and looked half-dead with grey hair and balding and was a carpenter with INSANE grip strength and you'd think he was an old weak man and then the second you started grappling with him you'd damn near be fearing for your life he was so freaking strong and crazy hahah.

Mat strength is entirely different from lifting strength that's for sure.

 

[Mycophile]

I just have to say, some people will hide and protect the fact they use PEDs till the day they die, no matter who is close to them or how much you think you know about them.

The reality is is PEDs are widely used by almost all professional athletes, and I would not be the least bit surprised if star fighters like McGregor or Jon Jones didn’t have super drugs the WADA don’t even know about or how to test for. The reality is is the stakes are too high and it’s foolish to expect to compete without PEDs.

in sports it’s entirely embarrassing and discrediting to be found positive for steroids and especially in MMA, so I know if I was a pro fighter I would go to extreme lengths to deny and advocate against PEDs because the reality is is if you get caught it completely diminishes what you have achieved. I do find it funny however how people have the belief if you stick a needle in your ass you instantly turn into some Greek chiseled god. That couldn’t be further from the truth.

Steroids help, they do. But I’m under the belief that for steroid users to achieve the highest physique they have to put in Tremendous amounts of work regardless of what enhancement is being used.

that said, I wanted to go back to the guy saying his friend died 4 months after dropping testosterone

I already know everything you are saying is true.

The only points of contention i had are the idea that ALL athletes ALWAYS use PEDs, because it is simply not true, and also that someone who doesn't know my instructor would basically be implying that he's lying to me.

I don't care if he does or doesn't use them, but his integrity is important to me because i have learned from him for 15 years, and just basically, i have every reason to believe he's telling the truth.

I mean, he didn't have that long a career, just like 9 fights or something over the course of 8-9 years, and i could be wrong, but i wouldn't tell someone else who said they believe their coach doesn't roid that he probably does...i mean, that's just me.

We all know most do, but there are those who don't, and of course i know that if you don't put in the hard work then the PEDs will basically do very little if nothing for you.

From what VERY little i know about PEDs in comparison to all you guys, what i have heard is that it's the extra work they allow you to do that makes the difference, but that if you don't actually DO the extra work then they mean next to nothing.

I remember a kid i knew in highschool who took steroids but he admitted to almost never working out at all and he wasn't even an athlete and the thing we noticed was he just got fat hahahaa.

Pretty dumb really.

 

[Mycophile]

If someone is a better fighter with more experience in the arts like Ju Jitsu, no amount of testosterone is gonna change the outcome of that fight.

Technique / Experience > Strength 100% of the time.

A real versed pro fighter it wouldn’t matter if there opponent was on PEDs, unless there training matched them.

Again, i know this.

It's when all else is close to equal that it becomes a factor, just like strength itself, but if it made no difference no one would do them.

I really am not morally against it, i'm more against some people being on them and some not.

I wish there was a PED league and a non-PED league, but it will never happen.

And the reason I know you are right is because, as mentioned, I fully believe my instructor has never used PEDs, and know he's beaten people in MMA who were juiced, and while i have never fought MMA, i have beaten, and been beaten by, guys who juiced in tournament BJJ competition.

 

[Swim15]

The only points of contention i had are the idea that ALL athletes ALWAYS use PEDs, because it is simply not true, and also that someone who doesn't know my instructor would basically be implying that he's lying to me.

I want to point out that no one has said this lol. Most do and that’s what’s been stated.

Idk why you’d ever feel bad for anyone clean though. It’s understood that most are using so pro leagues are essentially PED-open sports. If someone chooses not to use them, that’s okay. I wouldn’t feel bad though. I also wouldn’t feel bad if I was using and beat someone who wasn’t...why would I? I train how I want to and they trained how they want to. Nothing wrong with either way.

 

[Mycophile]

I want to point out that no one has said this lol. Most do and that’s what’s been stated.

Idk why you’d ever feel bad for anyone clean though. It’s understood that most are using so pro leagues are essentially PED-open sports. If someone chooses not to use them, that’s okay. I wouldn’t feel bad though. I also wouldn’t feel bad if I was using and beat someone who wasn’t...why would I? I train how I want to and they trained how they want to. Nothing wrong with either way.

Ok, sorry then cause i was pretty sure that either you or the mod serotonin had said at one point that ''ALL athletes use PEDs'', so if i misread you then i guess that's my fault.

Well, where i'm coming from is that i am not 100 percent sure i'd feel safe taking PEDs.

I have high cholesterol which i am going to work hard to lower right now, and i have heard that some PEDs and roids raise it, and i'm not risking a heart attack to perform a bit better in martial arts, so I would feel it unfair if then i have to go against someone of equal skill, but he bests me ONLY because he did not have to worry about that health condition and thus could use his PED.

He would not have proven he was better than me, and his winning would be based on luck of the draw.

And I wonder, would you extend this as far as taking pain killers?

Cause that can't be safe for the user either to take pain killers and not feel the punches as much and risk that.

But with MMA and striking arts even more than BJJ, the risk you take is NOT only your own, because you take a PED that allows you, only along with SERIOUS training of course, to be able to punch, kick, knee and elbow your opponent in the head harder than a normal person could, and hence, put them in more danger.

And then there is the economic factor where i think it's messed up if one fighter cannot afford a PED and the other can, and their skill level is close enough that just cause the other guy has more money and can afford that PED he wins.

Ideally, i'd like to see a PED league where EVERYONE uses and a non-PED league where NO ONE uses.

Someone like you would probably say that most sports leagues already are ''PED leagues'' and you wouldn't be entirely wrong, but there are exceptions.

I would also question, how do you feel about transgender athletes like Fallon Fox who is actually a man but transitioned to a ''female'' who is now beating the pulp out of women and even broke a women's skull recently in a fight.

Would you not say that Fallon Fox is unfairly ''cheating'', despite being able to get away with being, IMO wrongfully, considered a female and able to use his brute strength on women, and if you DO see that as unfair then why would you draw the line there and not with PEDs, especially considering one of the big differences between him and the women he fights is the testosterone advantage he has?

I mean, I just think everything should be the same for everyone so that it is truly the person who has the most skill combined with the most NATURAL advantages who wins, or if someone is on a PED then it should be fine for his opponent to be on all the same ones so we truly know who the better fighter/athlete is.

I mean, it's the same reason IMO why many sports have different divisions for older men vs younger men and men vs women, because again, one of the biggest defining issues between young and old, men and women, is testosterone.

Everyone would agree that a 20 year old has an unfair advantage over a 50 year old, and everyone would agree that a man has an unfair advantage over a women, and likewise, that is why we have weight classes and everyone agrees a 200 pounder has an unfair advantage over 155er.

So we make all these distinctions, many of which i'd assume you agree with, but then NOT the PED distinction.

It's a VERY slippery slope where you could argue in the case of fallon fox that it's ok if you can trick someone that you are a man to allow you to fight a women, or that if you could deceive someone about your age or weight somehow that you could fight someone older or small and gain that advantage.


I just think that the second you start saying you are ok with breaking certain rules that at that point you can take it logically to absurdly extreme lengths and the rules are really being decided by the competitor.

I feel that if a sport has rules, then they should be followed by everyone, or else, if we disagree with those rules, then ideally their should be another league or version of the sport with the different rules that we agree with.

Obviously though, as mentioned, we won't ever have a PED league and non-PED league, though i think we should, but it is worth considering that if you are ok with breaking one rule you could in theory be ok with breaking any rule, and then all sports become meaningless.

This conversation has gotten too circular though, so I don't feel we should probably continue much longer, but i do wonder your take on the Fallon Fox thing, and why you would be cool with men and women having different divisions and their being different weight classes, but not see an issue with PED use, as i am sure you would say men should not fight women, that heavyweights should not fight light weights, and that 60 year olds should not fight 20 year olds, and in all cases it is the ''unfair advantage'' we are talking about.

 

[SS373dOH]

Tldr

OT: I gots to have them Jose Canseco numbers !

 

[Swim15]

None of these other questions really matter since we’re discussing your use of PEDs and whether or not they are right for you.

As far as transgenders in sports, I don’t really think they should be allowed to compete at all really. Someone that was biologically a dude shouldn’t compete against females because they have different muscle tissue philology. A lot of females use PEDs but often times different from males and often times not even anabolics. As far as painkillers I think it’s fair game. We really aren’t here to discuss my personal opinions though so DM me if you want to talk about them.

As far as you, I’d say you scrap the whole idea altogether personally because you are way too concerned about the whole fair/unfair advantage thing and I don’t think that will go away.

 

[Mycophile]

None of these other questions really matter since we’re discussing your use of PEDs and whether or not they are right for you.

As far as transgenders in sports, I don’t really think they should be allowed to compete at all really. Someone that was biologically a dude shouldn’t compete against females because they have different muscle tissue philology. A lot of females use PEDs but often times different from males and often times not even anabolics. As far as painkillers I think it’s fair game. We really aren’t here to discuss my personal opinions though so DM me if you want to talk about them.

As far as you, I’d say you scrap the whole idea altogether personally because you are way too concerned about the whole fair/unfair advantage thing and I don’t think that will go away.

I won't make my decision based on the ''fair/unfair'' issue cause i'll never fight pro so it will never be illegal for me to do so, and i don't even know if i'll get to fight amateur, and i'm not going to scap or not scrap the idea based on your opinions, and no offense, but again, you sort of have this way of speaking where you act as if you know how certain things will go or how they are that are totally unrelated to you like how people feel about things or their opinions or what they know, like when you say ''I don't think that will go away'', as per my opinions on what is ''fair or unfair.''

You can't possibly know how my opinions on the matter or on anything else will or won't change, and it's just odd to suggest you would.

My opinions on many things have changed 180 degrees over the years.

I mean even though IF i fought amateur it's possible someone else might not be on something and i might if i made that choice, it's not against the rules, and when no rule is broken then i have a harder time taking issue.

Plus, i'll be 40 soon, and IF i got TRT i'd only get levels adjusted to be close to on par with guys in their 20s, and i could possibly be up against a guy in his 20s or 30s, though i am sure i'd look for an opponent who was in his 40s if possible, but i would not let that stop me.

Even my instructor said he would take no issue with one of our amateur muay thai fighters who might possibly be using TRT because he's in his 40s and said he wouldn't hold it against him using that to level the playing field against younger guys in amateur competition.

It's really the breaking a rule thing that gets me, and where i think it's ok if every single person breaks the rule, or otherwise not.

If there is no rule stating it's not ok, then I can't really see anyone making a stance about it being unfair, just as i mentioned that i have competed against juiced guys in jiu-jitsu tournaments, but i really have no leg to stand on to complain about it when it is not against the rules and no one is drug tested so i accept that as the reality and know going in that i may or may not be against a juiced athlete and i deal with it.

As also mentioned, i have done absolute divisions where even being 170lbs i can face someone of any size, and have beaten guys who are 250lbs, and those guys were probably stronger, whether they juiced or not, than some guys who juiced who were my size, so sometimes you have the option in tournaments i have competed in in downright knowing ahead of time that you'll be facing bigger, stronger and more experienced guys by choice, and that they will have the advantage, and I do it anyway to challenge myself.

Whatever.

We clearly don't agree on everything, though we do agree on a few things, but that's fine.

I'm sure it will take me quite some time to decide whether or not I want to try TRT, and i'll have many people here, on facebook, and most of all I'm sure and most importantly, actual doctors to ask about it if I should want to know more, and I make decisions like this slowly in life, so whatever choice i make, by the time i do or don't make it, i'll be willing to live with the consequences.

Good talking to you though as you provided some decent information at times.

 

[Swim15]

Not gonna lie I said that partially to be funny to see if you would go into another wall of text about your thoughts on cheating, rules, and whether other guys are juiced or not.

Just have fun dude. Although most docs, especially in the states, are not well trained so you’re likely to get a lot of misinformation if you take them all at face value. Western medicine philosophy is beyond fucked

 

[nuttynutskin]

I heard that the dispenser steroids come in is called a PEDs dispenser. Is this true?