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What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

G_Chem

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Apr 17, 2015
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I researched the polymorph theory heavily and even went over Raman Specs from different years to look for polymorphism variations.

The conclusion was, that while polymorphism probably has some effect on the overall experience (anhydrous VS the varying hydration polymorphs) it’s not the culprit here as these various polymorphs have been around since Day 1.

-GC
 

unodelacosa

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Joined
Feb 23, 2021
Messages
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Some people were too dumb to tell MDMA apart from methamphetamine,
No one is that dumb. Maybe naive and/or inexperienced, but that has nothing to do with the 90s.
even in the roaring 1990s.
I think right now we’re living in a Golden Era for recreational drug use since global drug prohibition began. I was there for the 90s. Laws were worse and weed was illegal everywhere. When we’re younger, drugs are still new and impressive, like music and sex. This effect is often underestimated. Also: nostalgia is misleading. People who insist drugs were better during some earlier decade tend to ignore that they were younger and drugs were fresh to them then.
If they IV'ed MDMA
Pretty rare for an MDMA user to IV the drug. That’s during the 90s and now.
and you asked them how it felt, they would just say "like coke."
Lol, what? No. Where’d you reach that conclusion? … firstly, I thought you were comparing MDMA and meth. How’d we jump to coke? Secondly, no one would say this. Even IV’d, MDMA lasts 3x longer and has vastly different, easily distinguished effects. Logic alone tells me this is true, but I also have the personal experience of having used and sold both drugs in the 90s and I’ve seen many others use them as well. No one IV’d MDMA and then confused its effects for cocaine. That’s ridiculous.
 
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unodelacosa

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Feb 23, 2021
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411
Hi Negi, don't be naive.
Negi isn’t naive. Far-fetched conspiracy theories strike me as naive though.
Police is not your friend.
Most people aren’t, but these matters don’t require friendship and are largely predicated on legalities, academic study, and professionalism. Police exist to serve the people, and were it not for drug laws and other vices being labelled “crimes” most people would view the police department the way they view the fire department – favorably and seen as only there to help you, not hurt you or lead to your imprisonment.
Researchers in close collaboration with the dutch police neither.
It’s good to always be skeptical, but most researchers won’t risk their professional reputation by publishing questionable and/or dishonest studies in the science journals. They invest too much in their careers to do so, trust me, and careers have been ruined by researchers pandering too much to drug prohibitionists in the govt. for grants while publishing false and misleading studies that are later debunked.
I think they know very well what's going on, they just simply won't disclose what they know because isn't in their agenda.
Sounds like conspiratorial conjecture.
Everything is easier with things being as they are now.
As if law enforcement is behind a conspiracy to put out bad MDMA analogues so no one can enjoy MDMA, because sadism is their bottom line. Hahahaha
For sure they won't tell somerandomguyfromthewebcallednegi (no offense!)
(no offense to what? Referring to Negi as a random guy? That shouldn’t offend anyone. I’m as random to you and Negi as you two are to me (loosely defining “random”)).
about what's really going on, unless the request is coming from a legit accademic or governative organization.
I’m not saying this totally disqualifies what you’re saying, but “accademic or governative organization”? —.—
If you forget for a moment what Kranenburg told you, and start analyzing the issue with a fresh mind you can see that the ortho, or 2,3 deoxyring position isomer is the only viable option here,
You mean, *2,3-dimethoxy ring, and this is bad logic without underlying evidence; again just poorly informed conjecture, no disrespect.
You can't ignore some facts, whatever it's been said by "official" sources.
Untruths and opinions are often presented as facts. And also simply stating “Fact” before declaring something does not make it a fact nor true.
Fact: test labs failed to identify any major adulterant with phamacological activity in many different samples and from different labs
Which “labs” do you mean? Major adulterants have been found. This thread was attempting to limit the sharing of experiences to those experiences that involve samples purportedly only containing MDMA as the active ingredient.
Fact: it resists any purification attempts,
This is not a fact. Virtually anything can be purified given the proper knowledge, technique, and equipment to do so.
a minor but ultra potent potent adulterant
And which adulterant would that be? There’s nothing that potent that would be a by-product of MDMA synthesis.
would be easily removed by recrystallization,
No, if the impurity were also an amine-bearing compound, recrystallization would simply also recrystallize the impurity. There are better, more suitable purification techniques for this.
besides the fact that from a chemistry point of view it is impossible the creation of such unknown by-product,
I think you accidentally a word. You might be echoing what I said above though, hopefully.
mdma chemistry is pretty basic and simple.
Oh so you’ve synthesized it yourself? In your “accademic” pursuits, you were a chemical engineer and that’s what gives you the authority to say with confidence “mdma chemistry is pretty basic and simple”? And are you framing this within the context of clandestine chemistry and working with suboptimal environments with chemicals that aren’t always reagent grade and all of this without any advanced analytical equipment? And btw I’m speaking from experience with this – I’ve synthesized MDMA.
Fact: It's more profitable than MDMA, because of its shorter duration and due to being less potent by mg/Kg users consume more
Wrong. The more potent the drug, the more profitable it is to produce it. The best evidence of this is LSD. Just producing 1 kilogram is 10 million hits of LSD. This is why no one hardly ever produces Mescaline any more – threshold dose is too low.
Fact: It became mass available short after the ban of essential oils from asia, so precursor change plays a major role here
No arguments there, but that sudden loss of source lead to a flood of identifiable MDMA analogs for a few years until no sources were procured and MDMA production picked back up. We’re in that era now.
Fact: Both street drug test and official test labs identify meh as magic,
Yes, they even use those exact terms, because: science.
see the Kranenburg research to understand that to differentiate the two substances very accurate and directional test procedures are needed, which aren't performed normally.
There’s some validity to what you’re saying here a bit, but it doesn’t justify all these other half-drawn conclusions.
Fact: from a legal point of view in most countries the two M's are equally illegal (analogues law)
Fact: irrelevant point. I like “the two M’s” those… sounds ominous but also makes me want some M&Ms. Mmmmm…
Fact: The number of trials and convictions that would go expunged or in re trial would be massive in those countries where doesn't exists the above illegal status (analogues law)
Ok first of all that would be contingent on a government addressing “retroactivity” as it’s called, and they sometimes drag their feet on this subject. Secondly, it would require carefully reexamining drug sample evidence that is likely long-since destroyed, and would also require a legal system that gave enough of a shit to attempt correcting any such technical error. But see, that‘s a dilemma for a justice department to deal with. Law enforcment is separate from that, as are legislators, and as are yet still private research firms.
Sorry but if you guys really want to see the light at the end of the tunnel and have a definite answer to the meh vs. magic discourse this is the main, fundamental first thing that need direct and personal verification.
Which thing? You listed over a half-dozen points. And I have doubts there is an answer or a certain conclusion to this topic.
Every other theory comes after this, no matter how you put it, or if you like it or not.
Sorry for dismantling your post and picking it apart point by point, and while I applaud you for thinking about this topic critically and give you credit for applying what seems logical to you, I have to disagree with—respectfully of course—the majority of your points, as outlined in the rebuttals above.
  • Fact: using this format makes me think of Dwight from The Office.
 

PlayHard

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Location
Ne - UK.
It seems its been awhile again since I posted on here or even read this thread, magic landed in my hands a few days ago which I was keen to test with the test kit and shortly after indulge.. A trip down memory lane as the sample given to me started to unwind around the 40 minute mark - waves of bliss as I'm coming up. Dose was weighed at 150mg with an additional 50mg prepared for later. However I didn't feel the need to dose up anymore, the general feel of spangledness and sheer bliss/eurphoricness in a world of my own for around 4/5 hours before the comedown was a very mellow drop off. Some nice soft hash and fine terpy flowers, followed by a dab of bho sent me to sleep nicely. No feeling I had taken anything the night before when I woke - other then known I wasn't in bliss world anymore, just back to reality.

The sample tested fine before consumption - All showed signs of nothing but mdma present - quite a violent reaction and that classic proof of smoke. Been ages since I tested or seen any mdma - well before lockdown. Seems the magic finds me at times I'm not generally looking.
 

ThreePointCircle

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Joined
Apr 21, 2016
Messages
291
It seems its been awhile again since I posted on here or even read this thread, magic landed in my hands a few days ago which I was keen to test with the test kit and shortly after indulge.. A trip down memory lane as the sample given to me started to unwind around the 40 minute mark - waves of bliss as I'm coming up. Dose was weighed at 150mg with an additional 50mg prepared for later. However I didn't feel the need to dose up anymore, the general feel of spangledness and sheer bliss/eurphoricness in a world of my own for around 4/5 hours before the comedown was a very mellow drop off. Some nice soft hash and fine terpy flowers, followed by a dab of bho sent me to sleep nicely. No feeling I had taken anything the night before when I woke - other then known I wasn't in bliss world anymore, just back to reality.

The sample tested fine before consumption - All showed signs of nothing but mdma present - quite a violent reaction and that classic proof of smoke. Been ages since I tested or seen any mdma - well before lockdown. Seems the magic finds me at times I'm not generally looking.
Awesome. Where abouts in the world? And did you notice any difference in the reagent reaction compared to meh?
 

PlayHard

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Jul 6, 2012
Messages
357
Location
Ne - UK.
Awesome. Where abouts in the world? And did you notice any difference in the reagent reaction compared to meh?
I'm in the UK - northeast without been to specific. I've tested alot of meh in the past, I have a collection of videos from a few years ago when I was posting results in here. the meh samples would give off a black reaction rather then the dark purple/purple. The stuff I tested on Monday night reacted so fast and went a dark purple within seconds. I'll upload video and pics of the mdma in question soon as
 
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ThreePointCircle

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Apr 21, 2016
Messages
291
I'm in the UK - northeast without been to specific. I've tested alot of meh in the past, I have a collection of videos from a few years ago when I was posting results in here. the meh samples would give off a black reaction rather then the dark purple/purple. The stuff I tested on Monday night reacted so fast and went a dark purple within seconds. I'll upload video and pics of the mdma in question soon as
Interesting. Yes, everything I've tested (all meh) has been black rather than purple but I know its hard to over analyse reagent results.
 

mooka

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Sep 26, 2018
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33
@unodelacosa

man you're totally missing the point... it's not ridiculing me that we solve this.

mooka said:
If you forget for a moment what Kranenburg told you, and start analyzing the issue with a fresh mind you can see that the ortho, or 2,3 deoxyring position isomer is the only viable option here,
You mean, *2,3-dimethoxy ring, and this is bad logic without underlying evidence; again just poorly informed conjecture, no disrespect.
None taken, it is not conjecture it is what remains after ruling out all the other possible options, after all this is a years long thread.
I can't produce evidence, we would need a lab for this, still there are so many different clues that suggests that this is an hypothesis that deserves real attention and not being discarded right away.
By all means I would be very happy to be proven wrong with real data.

mooka said:
mdma chemistry is pretty basic and simple.
Oh so you’ve synthesized it yourself? In your “accademic” pursuits, you were a chemical engineer and that’s what gives you the authority to say with confidence “mdma chemistry is pretty basic and simple”? And are you framing this within the context of clandestine chemistry and working with suboptimal environments with chemicals that aren’t always reagent grade and all of this without any advanced analytical equipment? And btw I’m speaking from experience with this – I’ve synthesized MDMA.
No, but I've studied chemistry in high school as many others long time ago, still is a quite basic set of reactions (2 max 3 with the proper starting materials, you can find any required precursor online, it's not a secret), it is something doable by any college level chemistry student. There's plenty of kids doing stuff on various reddit subs. It doesn't involve exotic substances, neither requires protection from atmosphere, involves maintaining critical temperatures ranges or highly technical and expensive lab gear, in fact there's a nice procedure on rhodium that shows the final reduction performed in a modified plastic bucket). And no one in the 90's was using lab grade solvents.
In fact you could start from pepper and produce mdma completely OTC. More steps required of course.

mooka said:
Fact: It's more profitable than MDMA, because of its shorter duration and due to being less potent by mg/Kg users consume more
Wrong. The more potent the drug, the more profitable it is to produce it. The best evidence of this is LSD. Just producing 1 kilogram is 10 million hits of LSD. This is why no one hardly ever produces Mescaline any more – threshold dose is too low.
Sorry man totally disagree here.
If you and your buddies control the production, distribution and ultimately the market without competition you can sell everything you want, and a short acting, weaker by mg/kg is it more profitable simply because users consume more of it, therefore you sell more of it, why selling something that is fully active at a certain dosage and lasts 4-6 hours when you can sell a sub par substance that you need double amount and last half the time?

mooka said:
Every other theory comes after this, no matter how you put it, or if you like it or not.
Sorry for dismantling your post and picking it apart point by point, and while I applaud you for thinking about this topic critically and give you credit for applying what seems logical to you, I have to disagree with—respectfully of course—the majority of your points, as outlined in the rebuttals above.
No problem, at the end nothing changes really.

See, I look at it more like: “FUCK GLOBAL DRUG PROHIBITION. Just let adults enjoy recreational drugs.”
Couldn't agree more

Still, not a scientist but last my two cents:

science is not questionable, is based on data, when this data is not available hypotheses are made and are confirmed or disproved through experimentation and/or data acquisition.
We have all the data we need:

Meh appeared after shifting from natural to synthetic precursor
it follows that the difference is due to the precursor
now you have two different hypotheses:

  1. precursor impurities create active byproducts that compete with the main substance. Fine I can accept that, but as you said it needs proof.

    So I go to drugsdata.org today (one of those public and anonymous substance test labs cited before, there are few but not dozens), and check the first 200 results for MDMA and the only results that gives a synthesis byproduct is https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=11074.
    All the others pills are tablets are MDMA, so where are those impurities that alter so much the substance effects? Are those all fantastic magic lovey sexy horney danceyoursoulout extasy pills? I doubt very much so
    Something isn't right here, either those impurities aren't there or something else is going on.
    On a side note, attempted purification of current available "Champagne" or "Cola" or whatever is called DWM MDMA doesn't produce any difference in effects.
    Many people in and out this forum tried to purify MeH without success. Purifying in this case means by the bare minimum: pulverization of the substance, multiple acetone washes followed by multiple recrystallizations (at least 4times ) in IPA or other suitable solvent.
    Now I'd like to quote you: "No, if the impurity were also an amine-bearing compound, recrystallization would simply also recrystallize the impurity." Actually this isn't correct, crystal lattice formation would favour the substance which is in higher concentration first, this is the whole point of recrystallization. It is a way to purify chemicals.
    from wikipedia: "In chemistry, recrystallization is a technique used to purify chemicals. By dissolving both impurities and a compound in an appropriate solvent, either the desired compound or impurities can be removed from the solution, leaving the other behind. It is named for the crystals often formed when the compound precipitates out. "
    There are better, more suitable purification techniques for this." Indeed. Have you tried any of those and succeed? just asking
    Also: an amine bearing compound in relevant concentration would be detected by the above test labs. I'm tired to repeat this: if is there it is detected. There is not such substance invisible to GC/MS.
    It is a fact, it's not questionable.


    So that leaves us with:

  2. precursor is not what it should be.

 

AutoTripper

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Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
5,973
I'm in the UK - northeast without been to specific. I've tested alot of meh in the past, I have a collection of videos from a few years ago when I was posting results in here. the meh samples would give off a black reaction rather then the dark purple/purple. The stuff I tested on Monday night reacted so fast and went a dark purple within seconds. I'll upload video and pics of the mdma in question soon as
Yes the few tests I was witness to with truly fire ecstasy, MDMA, I definitely saw purple in there, getting darker quite quick, and thevwhole process was fast. Seconds really.

In later 90's.
 

Negi

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Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Messages
329
We have all the data we need:

Meh appeared after shifting from natural to synthetic precursor
I would love if you could provide your evidence for this. Remember that numerous people in this thread have identified the early to mid 2000's as when the magic went away. The major seizures and disruption of safrole production were 2008-2009. That is assuming that the "natural" precursor you mentioned was safrole.
 

unodelacosa

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Joined
Feb 23, 2021
Messages
411
man you're totally missing the point... it's not ridiculing me that we solve this.
Not trying to ridicule you, just your argument. Nothing personal and no offense.
None taken, it is not conjecture it is what remains after ruling out all the other possible options, after all this is a years long thread.
Many of these arguments and impurity side products cannot, at this point, yet be ruled out. It all pivots on solid evidence and independent, repeatable test results.
I can't produce evidence, we would need a lab for this,
Exactly…
still there are so many different clues that suggests that this is an hypothesis that deserves real attention and not being discarded right away.
Only where you expect to see clues.
By all means I would be very happy to be proven wrong with real data.
Well how about instead of taking the approach of “prove me wrong!” why not approach it like, “I don’t know yet until we see more evidence”? Otherwise you jump the gun. There are probably multiple things that can interfere with MDMA pharmacokinetics and cause a “mehDMA” experience.
No, but I've studied chemistry in high school as many others long time ago,
Yeah and most people took a foreign language in high school, too. It doesn’t mean they speak that language fluently or even conversationally now with few exceptions. A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing when we don’t know yet how little we actually know.
still is a quite basic set of reactions (2 max 3 with the proper starting materials, you can find any required precursor online, it's not a secret),
I never said it was a secret, nor implied this knowledge is cryptic or arcane. I’ve been doing this since the alt.drugs.chemistry days and witnessed the proliferation of illicit drug chemistry knowledge as it moved from Loompanics book catalogues, to Newsgroups (like the aforementioned ADC), then to The Hive, Rhodium’s site, the Erowid and similar sites, and eventually across the dark net markets.

However, you cannot safely and reliably find “any required precursor online”, not without serious risk of walking into a trap, L.E. honey pot, or getting reported to the DEA by a chemical supplier (as the law stipulates). Sometimes you might get lucky and find a supplier who doesn’t report jack shit because they’d rather make money, but it’s a roll of the proverbial dice I’m not willing to make, not when my personal liberty is on the line, but that’s just me.

Also fractional vacuum distillation isn’t difficult, per se, but I wouldn’t call it “quite basic” either. It really depends on whom you ask, but setting up magnetic stirring hotplates, round-bottom flasks with 24/40 ground glass joints, a Liebig condenser with coolant being fed to it by a pump submerged in an insulated bucket of ice water, a vacuum adapter, a Claisen adapter or thermometer adapter, vacuum pump, vac hose, and vacuum grease, not to mention the fractionating column and a suitable material to pack it with… plus it doesn’t hurt to be familiar with liquid chromatography and have the right material, solvent(s) and suitable column.
it is something doable by any college level chemistry student.
Wait, so your high school chemistry education is or is not sufficient then?

Your point that it’s not but so logistically challenging is noted, but that’s also contingent on either being educated in chemistry or trusting someone else to give you a perfect step-by-step procedural guide. If you’ve ever read any of Uncle Fester’s books, you might realize how this can be dangerous and you should know how to calculate your own math. It’s better to understand how to modify and develop new procedures as needed, too. And if it were that easy more people would do it.
There's plenty of kids doing stuff on various reddit subs.
That’s a vague statement, but I assume you’re talking about /r/TheeHive and its ilk, and also there are a bunch of related subs on the .onion forum, Dread. I’m on those subs all the time. … I don’t agree with you here fully. Yes, there are new, younger heads in the game now, but that doesn’t prove it’s supposedly easy to manufacture high quality drugs in your spare time to amuse your friends and relatives… or just yourself, even. But that’s fine, we may have to disagree.
It doesn't involve exotic substances,
“Exotic substances”= vague. Plus the DEA watch list might surprise you. But I mean, is palladium dichloride exotic to you? (It’s certainly not cheap.)
neither requires protection from atmosphere, involves maintaining critical temperatures ranges or highly technical and expensive lab gear,
Analytical gear like GC-MS is beyond the reach of most underground chemists as are the logistics of certain precautions like blast shields and properly pressurized, vented work areas. Also assembling, monitoring, tearing back down and cleaning a full vacuum distillation glassware setup is a whole bunch of slightly to moderately stressful, tedious work. And one really needs a good vacuum pump to lower boiling points in order to avoid nasty polymers that come from too much heat.
in fact there's a nice procedure on rhodium that shows the final reduction performed in a modified plastic bucket).
I’m well aware of the content on the Rhodium archive site, having been a contributing bee myself when much of that stuff was first published. I have copies of that archive on backup as well as copies of the entire Hive forum on backup. You’re referring to a period in time more than twenty years ago. Dr. Drool, Brightside, and Methylman are the bees behind that particular post if memory serves. That method outlines a p-benzo Wacker oxidation from Safrole to MDP-2-P, and an Al/Hg amalgam + reductive amination to the final product: bright white, pure MDMA hydrochloride.

Try to acquire some p-benzoquinone, PdCl2, and mercuric chloride in 2021 and see if the Narcoswine don’t swoop down on you and charge you with attempt to manufacture MDMA. Most of the easily accomplished, thoroughly discussed routes to MDMA from The Hive have become traps or dead-ends. The DEA look for materials involved in illicit synthetic routes, always just behind underground chemists, like a game of cat and mouse, so things like p-benzo wackers and ketone reductions with methylamine aren’t as easy to pull off with no one looking anymore.
And no one in the 90's was using lab grade solvents.
That still just depends on the chemist’s sources. There are clever ways to steal from chemical suppliers, universities, and industry. Also fake businesses and fraudulent credentials aren’t impossible for someone with a little talent at being charming, convincing and good at Photoshop document forgeries.
In fact you could start from pepper and produce mdma completely OTC. More steps required of course.
Wasn’t there an episode of Hamilton’s Pharmacopeia referencing that? Regardless you’re talking about piperine extraction –> from which you can derive piperic acid which when hydrolyzed yields piperonal and eventually without describing the whole process, yes, you can work your way to Safrole with enough determination. It’s technically possible but it sounds awfully tedious.
Sorry man totally disagree here.
That’s cool. And understand why you come to your conclusion, but you’re thinking from the middleman perspective. Consider the drug chemist / producer. From the producer’s angle, highly potent finished-product = more individual doses/grams/discrete product units. Hence the popularity of potent drugs among traffickers.
If you and your buddies control the production, distribution and ultimately the market without competition you can sell everything you want,
That’s different. If you had that much control, not much could stop you from price gouging if you felt like it. Regardless you can’t just remove all competition and act like that’s what the drug market is like. You’re changing the parameters. This is why cocaine is so profitable despite being weak and short-acting – it’s because the Columbians have a lockdown on its production and global distribution. It’s not because of the drug’s duration or potency. When the market place has healthy competition, and from the perspective of the drug manufacturer, the more potent the drug, the more profit will come from each gram of starting precursor. This is true in the pharmaceutical industry as well which is part of why LSD’s discovery was so impressive, and also why Dr. Shulgin admits in PiHKAL/TiHKAL that he too was swept up in the notion of producing an ultra-potent, useful pharmaceutical drug to the point of neglecting to recognize fully the impact of the qualitative experience.

Think about it: let’s say you have 6 kilos of ergotamine tartrate to make into LSD. You create 1.5 kilos of pure LSD from it, which isn’t a high yield, but that’s okay because it’s 15 million doses @100 µg each. We’re not supposed to discuss drug prices, so use your imagination. Compare that now to 20 kilos of cocaine. Even at a discount, the L is still more profitable. I think you’d need to move roughly a metric ton, no exaggerating, of cocaine to come close to that 1.5 kg of LSD. (Note: these figures can fetch you a multi-decade prison sentence in many countries; to anyone actually reading this, please don’t be stupid, thanks).

This is also a big part of the problem with fentanyl – it’s so potent that it’s unbelievably profitable, and that’s exactly why all these transnational criminal organizations have invested in it and are pushing it so heavily.

Another example would be a chemist who aims to make a phenethylamine from, say, vanillin (4-hydroxy-3-methoxybenzaldehyde). From that innocuous starting point, it’s about as much trouble to manufacture Mescaline as it is to manufacture 2C-B – not impossible, but a good bit of tedium, chemicals, and technical know-how, to be sure. However, there’s a reason you hardly see Mescaline anymore, especially the synthetic stuff – users need somewhere around 400 mg Mescaline to trip compared to ~30 mg 2C-B (or 2C-x). I hope you see my point here.
and a short acting, weaker by mg/kg is it more profitable simply because users consume more of it, therefore you sell more of it,
This disregards other factors like quality, product appeal, safety profile, cost/price, and user preferences. The equation isn’t that simple.
why selling something that is fully active at a certain dosage and lasts 4-6 hours when you can sell a sub par substance that you need double amount and last half the time?
Because someone else will put out a better product that will slow your business to a crawl if you don’t remain competitive. Customers will defect. Hence: competition benefits consumers. As quality increases, dealers need superior customer service plus clever marketing and branding to distinguish themselves.
No problem, at the end nothing changes really.
Nah, given enough time, this too shall pass.
science is not questionable,
No, but interpretations can be questioned.
is based on data, when this data is not available hypotheses are made and are confirmed or disproved through experimentation and/or data acquisition.
The scientific method – you got it. Too bad researching schedule I drugs is so mired in legal red tape most of us can do little but wait for the War on Drugs to end.
We have all the data we need:
No, we don’t. Did you see the part earlier about how Energy Control in Spain doesn’t have analytic standards for certain MDMA impurities, for example? Or how about complications such as, e.g., MDDMA and MDE have the same molecular weight and basic shape and can be tricky to distinguish via mass spec.?
Meh appeared after shifting from natural to synthetic precursor
Firstly, even if that were true, correlation does not prove causation.

Secondly, are you suggesting all global production of MDMA shifted at once from using safrole (3,4-methylenedioxyallylbenzene) distilled from Sassafras oil to, what, PMK glycidate? That’s would odd since PMK is piperonal methyl ketone, aka MDP-2-P, which is the intermediary between isosafrole and MDMA.

And thirdly, the time frames don’t correlate, like @Negi pointed out.
it follows that the difference is due to the precursor
Faulty logic; again: correlation != causation.
now you have two different hypotheses:
  1. precursor impurities create active byproducts that compete with the main substance. Fine I can accept that, but as you said it needs proof.
This has already been proven and links to the journal papers were provided in this thread weeks ago by the OP.
So I go to drugsdata.org today (one of those public and anonymous substance test labs cited before, there are few but not dozens), and check the first 200 results for MDMA and the only results that gives a synthesis byproduct is https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=11074.
See, that’s because you searched “MDMA” and drew the wrong conclusion from the results, not aware that it limits your query to actual MDMA, I‘m guessing. Search for the term “ecstasy” in the “Sample name” column. The impurities and imposters come out; however: this thread was meant to exclude those examples and focus on examples wherein a testing lab reports the sample as only containing MDMA for the active, yet user reports for the same tested material are consistently “meh” without evident explanation.

Personally, I question the validity of some of the testing labs.
All the others pills are tablets are MDMA, so where are those impurities that alter so much the substance effects? Are those all fantastic magic lovey sexy horney danceyoursoulout extasy pills? I doubt very much so
See comment above re: the issue with your search term.
Something isn't right here, either those impurities aren't there or something else is going on.
On a side note, attempted purification of current available "Champagne" or "Cola" or whatever is called DWM MDMA doesn't produce any difference in effects.
Many people in and out this forum tried to purify MeH without success. Purifying in this case means by the bare minimum: pulverization of the substance, multiple acetone washes followed by multiple recrystallizations (at least 4times ) in IPA or other suitable solvent.
Yes if any of the adulterants are active instead of being MDMA or being inactive, then it’s not surprising this rinse doesn’t alter the effects. It won’t remove water-soluble amine-bearing drug salts so long as the acetone is completely salted dry with MgSO₄, ice-cold, and used correctly. You’ll have clean cuts with clean drugs, lol.
Now I'd like to quote you: "No, if the impurity were also an amine-bearing compound, recrystallization would simply also recrystallize the impurity." Actually this isn't correct, crystal lattice formation would favour the substance which is in higher concentration first, this is the whole point of recrystallization.
Firstly, are you not aware of how, for example, MSM tends to co-crystallize with other compounds? But never mind that, b/c secondly, it doesn’t matter if the impurity compounds form crystals or simply get trapped inside another molecule’s crystal lattice, the impurity would still have whatever effect in your body it was going to have regardless of phase, crystal, whatever. Even ingested MDMA freebase oil will bond to the hydrochloric acid in your stomach upon first-pass metabolism. This is getting too long. Goddamn.
It is a way to purify chemicals.
Yeah no shit.
from wikipedia: "In chemistry, recrystallization is a technique used to purify chemicals. By dissolving both impurities and a compound in an appropriate solvent, either the desired compound or impurities can be removed from the solution, leaving the other behind. It is named for the crystals often formed when the compound precipitates out.
Please just glance through my past posts and tell me if you really think I’m new to organic chemistry. Jesus Fucking Christ, man. Look, you’d need a two-solvent system to do what you describe and it‘s based on exploiting the differences in solubility between compounds and solvents. For example acetone and IPA work well with MDMA. The IPA is boiled and a minimal amount completely dissolves the crystals with agitation. They are then slowly cooled off until cold, anhydrous acetone is added as the crystals crash out. As each new layer of the lattice is formed it is scrubbed clean by the acetone.
“There are better, more suitable purification techniques for this." Indeed.
(read: lithographic chromatography)
Have you tried any of those and succeed?
Yes, I’ve cleaned discoloration from black market purchased MDMA many times. If there’s little-to-no MDMA present, I can’t do anything about that. Not an alchemist over here turning things to gold, ya know. However, I have synthesized about a dozen different substituted phenethylamines over the years, and have relevant knowledge and experience in the field from multiple perspectives – user/buyer, dealer, supplier, producer. No bullshit.
just asking
Also: an amine bearing compound in relevant concentration would be detected by the above test labs.
Covered this earlier. You ran the wrong search.
I'm tired to repeat this:
Yeah I’m tired of repeating myself as well.
if is there it is detected. There is not such substance invisible to GC/MS.
I think you should master the search engine before GC-MS.
It is a fact, it's not questionable.

So that leaves us with:

  1. precursor is not what it should be.
If that were true, then the result of the fraudulent precursor would also be detected by GC-MS, by your own argument, so with your logic we’ve ruled out everything now, and MDMA never existed in the first place. It was just a dream and we’re all wide awake now. Congratulations, you solved it… for me at least 😉
 

hardtack

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Messages
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I'm an oldkool raver and took Ecstasy and speed in the early 90s and into 2000, and there is no comparison with the 90s and the 2000>
No recreational drugs today are the same as they were 20-30 years ago. Particularly Ecstasy and amphetamines.
I always suspected that the one thing that changed it all was the birth of the "Legal High/Research Chemical industry.
The use and application of the many hundreds of research chemicals has destroyed the oldskool illegal drugs market. Most if not all illegal oldskool classic type drugs today are mixed with the legal high/research chemicals. Amphetamine is the classic example. It simply does not exist anymore. It is simply research chemicals mixed with tiny amounts of real amphetamine to give it the smell of amphetamine. Utter garbage.
I'm now middle aged and no longer participate in such activities, but I strongly believe that the research chemical boom changed everything permanently, even after the governments banned the sale of them. They are all now just incorporated into all the other drugs.
Drug abuse has always been dangerous and risky, but so much more risky today. Todays drug takers will never realise because they don't know any different.
Stay safe guys.
Yes I agree but MDMC is identical to the SO CALLED OLD SCHOOL MDMA made from Sassafras ,,,yeah I'm OLD school raver too and had those years of Bliss back then too. I did the super real thing and guess what I had tremendous great times on the RC stuff . I can appreciate a Bigger kick back in those days and I found things even more refined of today. Remember we also were younger back then and it was a NEW HIP experience and had 5x the Dopamine and receptors back then so we got the Higher Rocket fuel back then. I just am happier actually some things are NOT available to younger generation. They were not as risky back then and I remember as well allot of idiots passed out and kids I partied with Sweating like Pigs back then. Dancing for hours and hours straight! Oh yeah Chicks were way way more into kicking it out too. Man would you want your kids today getting as wired as that? Nah gotta have the new watered down RCs today. At least today one if smart can Dance Safe test and well gotta look at good things that have taken place of original nasty things like Vaping. Yeah no more Cancer cigarettes at the parties we once attended? I embraced the Designer deal ,and still roll to OLD 90s music all day and night.
 

hardtack

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130
See, I look at it more like: “FUCK GLOBAL DRUG PROHIBITION. Just let adults enjoy recreational drugs.”
Then all the A-HOLE governments copied off GB and USA to ban RC Chems and now cannot even get the good Phenethylamines ...well gotta improvise a little more today and still have hordenine out there.
 

unodelacosa

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Then all the A-HOLE governments copied off GB and USA to ban RC Chems and now cannot even get the good Phenethylamines ...well gotta improvise a little more today and still have hordenine out there.
This is why it's important that public perception of recreational drug use lighten up and society learns to accept, nurture, cultivate, and perfect the integration of psychotropics instead of tolerating the harmful, wasteful, ineffective War on Drugs and supporting global drug prohibition.

MDMC is identical to the SO CALLED OLD SCHOOL MDMA made from Sassafras
By MDMA I assume you mean: 3,4-methylenedioxymethcathinone, aka methylone, aka M1, aka βK-MDMA, right? Because that compound has significantly less serotonergic activity and it's much more of a dopaminergic/adrenergic experience compared to real-deal Holyfield MDMA.
What about that oxygen atom at the β position ?
Exactly. A double-bond oxygen to be exact, therefore qualifying it as a ketone. That extra moiety typically changes a compound's pharmacodynamics quite a bit.
 

hardtack

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What about that oxygen atom at the β position ?
Correct but I can tell you from experience that if you pack on the right things to boost MDMC you can get effects about 80% of old school MDMA. Flood the body with loads of phenylalanine and 5-HTP loading up on dopamine as well as good high quality Protein Shake and trust me ...like adding Nitro Methane to a fire! Trust me this works really (good)because done it with other Cathinone's and did it> without. Like adding a twin turbo to your brain. Did allot of studying on this( ALLOT) Gotta be real careful cause you will really get a strong experience.
 
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hardtack

Bluelighter
Joined
Feb 28, 2016
Messages
130
This is why it's important that public perception of recreational drug use lighten up and society learns to accept, nurture, cultivate, and perfect the integration of psychotropics instead of tolerating the harmful, wasteful, ineffective War on Drugs and supporting global drug prohibition.


By MDMA I assume you mean: 3,4-methylenedioxymethcathinone, aka methylone, aka M1, aka βK-MDMA, right? Because that compound has significantly less serotonergic activity and it's much more of a dopaminergic/adrenergic experience compared to real-deal Holyfield MDMA.

Exactly. A double-bond oxygen to be exact, therefore qualifying it as a ketone. That extra moiety typically changes a compound's pharmacodynamics quite a bit.
Yes and No; One attachment on opposite side really does not have too much critical action other than exactly what you say less seratonin but that is just a good feeling part....I absolutely seek the empathogenic reaction the most and I would get TONS of that from MDMC as well as
4 -MEC. Remember as well, MDMA tends to be more of a Stimulant.... at least how I remember the old "REAL" thing. Now MDA really is the Good deal when it comes to big experiences. Then again each Chem. will effect people differently.
 
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