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What is the Most Visual Psychedelic?

Ismene2

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I mean, Strassman was blowing it out of his ass in true classic wishful-thinking psychedelic mythologizing fashion, but I guess he got sort of lucky :LOL:

Here's the study, but it's only one, and the usual caveats apply:
Interesting study pyth. I suppose I should've said "released at death in quantities large enough to make you trip balls". It would be useful to know if this is what happens to most things in the brain when you go into cardiac arrest or if it's unique to DMT and whether the concentration of DMT varies over the day in response to sleep, stress, exercise etc.

Must admit I find it hard seeing how a pineal gland about the size of a grain of rice can instantly produce 10-50mg of DMT - multiple times it's own weight. And I've never read an NDE that sounded like a DMT trip either.

Be interesting to find out where this idea "DMT makes you feel like you''re dying dude" came from. I've taken an absolute shitload of DMT but I usually take it orally - never felt I was "dying" once. Not ever remotely close. Felt absolutely on top of the world, at my absolute peak and buzzing with the thrill of life. Maybe if I was taking it in a room with a bunch of teenage mates smoking it and everyone saying "Dude you'll feel like you are dying". Then perhaps smoking it with that in your ears creates the experience of "Dude,where's my car? I'm dying".
 
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Ismene2

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lol DMT is released at death they even proven it now in studies in 2019. They induced NDE in rats and their brain got flooded with dmt.
Not sure they said flooded - they claimed to find an increase - whether that would be enough to make you trip balls is another question entirely. The fact that it's in our brains doesn't mean we are tripping balls every day does it. It's likely the concentration goes up and down with sleep and stress and all kinds of things - just like every other substance in the brain. Just because the concentration varies doesn't mean you would be tripping balls - you still wouldn't notice it.
 

PYTH

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I remember hearing an interesting theory from a scientist on some podcast or another, maybe even in response to this study, that the possible release of DMT when the (rat) body's in crisis or under extreme stress might be to sort of goose the mind and body into survival mode, which actually makes a hell of a lot of sense - it's both stimulating and interconnects parts of the brain that normally aren't; breaks down passive, automatic behaviors; encourages creative problem-solving etc.

...so it's not about some birth/death dimension hopping, mystical experience, or suddenly tripping at all. For all the hype around DMT and NDEs they never sound like a DMT trip to me either - MAYBE 5-meo-dmt ish. I'm sure NDEs have more to do about a concert of wild things going on in the brain across the board depending on context.

From experience low dose DMT and psilocybin is powerful, powerful stuff.
 

pupnik

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the article summarizes after clarifying that the pineal is not any more DMT productive than other parts of brain:
It is unknown whether the concentrations of DMT reported in our study at cardiac arrest can elicit the effects of an exogenous psychedelic dose of DMT, or whether this surge of endogenous DMT similarly occurs in humans.
In all likelihood the concentrations are subthreshold for a psychedelic reaction, while death itself is probably a bigger trip altogether than anything.
Strassman's approach is fantastical, this one may be inspired by him, but is less imaginary.
 

Coffeeshroom

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I personally dont have a long list of psychedelics that i have used but from what i have used i have found the following for me to be very visual

Shrooms - depending the strain
DMT
San pedro
Moonflowers
LSD - but i havent had real LSD in almost a decade
 

Ismene2

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I think reducing DMT to stuff like death and aliens does it a disservice in a way because it's kinda obvious bullshit. Every alien they meet comes out with some stupid self-help shit you can read in a thousand books. If it's a real alien the next time it says "Life is a bowl of cherries, death is nothing to fear" ask it "How do you do nuclear fusion at room temperature?".
 

Ismene2

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the article summarizes after clarifying that the pineal is not any more DMT productive than other parts of brain:
I think the fact that it's created in the brain is fantastic but what it actually means - it's created in lots of plants too. Maybe it's just a by-product of cellular life processes.

But the fact that it creates such explosive feelings and sensations in your brain - that is astonishing.
 

pupnik

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I think the fact that it's created in the brain is fantastic but what it actually means - it's created in lots of plants too. Maybe it's just a by-product of cellular life processes.

But the fact that it creates such explosive feelings and sensations in your brain - that is astonishing.
yes, the wonder of it is astonishing, but the endogenous DMT holy grail search has not yet amounted to trippy concentrations. It probably is a byproduct as you say. I hope they stop giving mice heart attacks just to multrify their freshly dying brains and test the chemistry there, it is 100% fatal.
 

Vastness

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I think reducing DMT to stuff like death and aliens does it a disservice in a way because it's kinda obvious bullshit. Every alien they meet comes out with some stupid self-help shit you can read in a thousand books. If it's a real alien the next time it says "Life is a bowl of cherries, death is nothing to fear" ask it "How do you do nuclear fusion at room temperature?".
LOL, I like this. So true. :giggle: I think the same about people who talk about the bible or whatever other holy text being such an amazing guide to life. If it's written by an omnipotent being, why does it not contain detailed instructions on how to quickly and cheaply synthesise an antiviral for the pandemic which will strike in 2020? Same goes for mediums obviously and people who claim some tangible supernatural connection with another reality. For the love of god, someone ask some specific questions with useful, testable answers rather than just vague pointless blabberings.
 

TripSitterNZ

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Your never broken through or taken enough DMT if you have to question the existence of enities. You cant bullshit somebody who acutally goes to the other side. everybody can lie and think they say a million things about DMT.

The DMT breakthrough is literally annihilation straight ego death before passing into hyperspace. I have been to hyperspace on LSD aswell that rivals it with entity contact aswell. 5-meo dmt is dying you no longer exist.

If you haven't died on DMT you probably don't even know how to smoke it right or are just eating and getting a placebo high. Proper ayahuasca brews will scare the fucking day lights of anybody visuals so out of this norm of reality and experinces that defy all science and physical laws you will in a literal battle between the forces of good and evil during a proper ayahuasca trip no feeling good you wont even be in the same room and will be keeping your eyes open not closed not to get consumed by the infinite abyss of ineffable mind melting.

The pineal gland is able to be seen after 49 days in a fetus Tibetan book of the dead says it takes 49 days for the soul to reincarnate. Nuclear fusion at room temperature isn't even possible because thats just a meltdown of uranium the entities would laugh and call the person a retard when its already figured out. The smartest human on earth to ever live is like a brainless monkey next to hyperspace wizards.

the DMT realms are infinite you can go to any fucking reality that is beyond conceivable by the human brain.

Most people will never acutally breakthrough since the sub breakthrough doses are already too much for them. If 25 mg of dmt crystal isn't breaking you through to hyperspace you are smoking it wrong.

But Hyperspace can be reached abit way more rare on very high doses of LSD and shrooms mixed with cannabis and other high dose psychedelics combos. Hyperspace is fucking crazy anything is possible i have seen the most fucked up shit of my life in hyperspace.


Don't come bullshitting about DMT and its effects because people who have been there simply know what its acutally like and just don't care but a newbie might get the wrong idea about the power of DMT. DMT will literally fucking annhilate you on the atomic level rip your soul from your body and shove your consciouness through a cosmic hyper fractal til you explode in another space which is called hyperspace that has no bounds or limits to the infinite potential of everything.
 

Vastness

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Not questioning the existence of entities, just questioning the idea that DMT-induced entity contact has any unique and special properties that elevate it above the kind of entity contact that can come from any other substance, or indeed, any other altered state of consciousness. You're not the only one to have had fantastical, apparently supernatural experiences on high doses of psychedelic drugs you know - but you often talk as if you are, and other people who haven't experienced what you have should be simply excluded from the discussion. I literally just read you post in another thread:

TripSitterNZ said:
It also pays to not read into much of the entities visited it is still a chemical made in nature at the end of the day that is connecting us to the infinite SELF everything is still internal.
That being the case I'm struggling to understand what it was about my post that touched a nerve.

I really doubt that a transcendent being somehow communicating from another reality would use a word like "retard" or talk the kind of garbled pseudoscience that you seem to be spouting. Or maybe they would - the motivations and intellect of such beings would likely be quite far outside my own comprehension - and also outside of yours, despite your own lofty ideas about your own understanding of the mind of god - denizens of this narrow material reality that we both are.

Again - I'm not dismissing the idea that any otherworldly entities might have some kind of objective reality outside our experience of them. But if they do, it's my belief that any communication with them is much like quantum entanglement - a seemingly magical phenomenon that it's impossible to extract any useful information from without first obtaining this information by more classical means. The belief that entity contact within a psychedelic experience is on it's own enough to impart one with some kind of secret knowledge about reality that people who have not experienced this simply cannot hope to understand is, IMO, an ego delusion in disguise.

The human ego is a deceptive and ever-present adversary - and IMHO we would all do well to bear this in mind whenever we start thinking that our own experiences of being have brought us closer to an objective truth about reality than anyone else's, and this is especially true when these experiences are drug induced - again, IMHO - or not so humble opinion if I'm honest, I am obviously not any more immune to the tricks of the ego than you or anyone else.
 

TripSitterNZ

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Not questioning the existence of entities, just questioning the idea that DMT-induced entity contact has any unique and special properties that elevate it above the kind of entity contact that can come from any other substance, or indeed, any other altered state of consciousness. You're not the only one to have had fantastical, apparently supernatural experiences on high doses of psychedelic drugs you know - but you often talk as if you are, and other people who haven't experienced what you have should be simply excluded from the discussion. I literally just read you post in another thread:

That being the case I'm struggling to understand what it was about my post that touched a nerve.

I really doubt that a transcendent being somehow communicating from another reality would use a word like "retard" or talk the kind of garbled pseudoscience that you seem to be spouting. Or maybe they would - the motivations and intellect of such beings would likely be quite far outside my own comprehension - and also outside of yours, despite your own lofty ideas about your own understanding of the mind of god - denizens of this narrow material reality that we both are.

Again - I'm not dismissing the idea that any otherworldly entities might have some kind of objective reality outside our experience of them. But if they do, it's my belief that any communication with them is much like quantum entanglement - a seemingly magical phenomenon that it's impossible to extract any useful information from without first obtaining this information by more classical means. The belief that entity contact within a psychedelic experience is on it's own enough to impart one with some kind of secret knowledge about reality that people who have not experienced this simply cannot hope to understand is, IMO, an ego delusion in disguise.

The human ego is a deceptive and ever-present adversary - and IMHO we would all do well to bear this in mind whenever we start thinking that our own experiences of being have brought us closer to an objective truth about reality than anyone else's, and this is especially true when these experiences are drug induced - again, IMHO - or not so humble opinion if I'm honest, I am obviously not any more immune to the tricks of the ego than you or anyone else.
my post wasen't aimed at you but the above poster claiming to do alot of DMT then brush it off like its just some jolly light trip.
 

Vastness

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Well, the sentiment still applies regardless. All drugs affect everyone differently and DMT is no exception. Many psychedelics in sufficient doses can take one to "hyperspace", as you put it, but equally no psychedelic should be considered so sacred that any perceived attempt to rationalise it's seemingly transcendent effects is tantamount to blasphemy.

I'll admit to feeling both impatient and slightly insulted whenever someone talks dismissively about my own drugs of choice - but equally, the argument "JUST DO ENOUGH OF THIS DRUG AND THEN YOU'LL UNDERSTAND" is questionable intellectually, morally, and in all sorts of other ways.

If simply doing enough DMT was sufficient to impart enough understanding of "true reality" then we would expect the world to be run by the enlightened psychedelic elite - but this does not seem to have happened. One might try to argue that the material goals and measures of success that we typically try to use cease to have meaning once one has a sufficient understand of psychedelically-imparted truths, and this is probably true - but it also means there's no external method to evaluate these truths, and applying this mode of thinking to any other drug is something most people would find instinctually problematic.

Perhaps Marcia Moore was closer to true reality when she froze to death in a forest on a heroic dose of ketamine... or perhaps any number of opiate addicts were closer to true meaning in the depths of their addiction culminating in fatal overdose. DMT and psychedelics on the other hand have an air of mysticism which makes simply checking out of any of our more mundane value systems to be somehow more permissible, a mark of "enlightenment", in a way that it would never be with any other class of drug.
 

TripSitterNZ

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I guess my goal is to make sure anybody who is acutally going to get into deep with as something as powerful as DMT understand its not just over hyped stories this shit is real and is it going to happen to you once you breakthrough and if the entire spectrum of the experince that people report back is something you dont want to do then steer away from it because once you go there everything is forever changed.

But ill admit im very biased about these experinces simply because i have seen so far out into the outer reaches and so have many people around the community in NZ and australia get really deep into DMT and its combos with LSD.

My background was a Bsc undergrad in chemistry before i fried my braincells with so much drugs and no longer do anything with it. So deep down i guess i have the belief that these experinces should not be possible if we thought it through science which made me reject the rational logic when going deep since if it its just atoms interacting with atoms in a infinite soup of energy then even these experinces are something that could of only be invented by a literal unknowable infinite god.
 

Vastness

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Yeah fair enough. Sorry if I came across a bit rude or dismissive in making my own point. Had a slightly stressful morning. Don't mean to sound like I don't value your perspective though. As I said I'm not immune to the influence of my own ego telling me my own way of looking at the world is the most correct - much as I try to keep it in check.
 

necropolis

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2C-I was the most visually interesting material I ever tried. It was akin to being inside of an oil painting during parts of the trip. Don't have much experience with psychedelics though. My entire lifetime list consists only of LSD, psilocybin/psilocin and 2C-I. I'm more of a dissociative enthusiast.

I do plan to try DMT at some point in my life, and also plan to treat it with the utmost respect when I do...
 

MescaliCAN

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LOL, I like this. So true. :giggle: I think the same about people who talk about the bible or whatever other holy text being such an amazing guide to life. If it's written by an omnipotent being, why does it not contain detailed instructions on how to quickly and cheaply synthesise an antiviral for the pandemic which will strike in 2020? Same goes for mediums obviously and people who claim some tangible supernatural connection with another reality. For the love of god, someone ask some specific questions with useful, testable answers rather than just vague pointless blabberings.
With all due respect I think you are both guilty of the same error in logic that you are criticizing. If whatever god/entities encountered in a psychedelic experience or a religious text are indeed of a higher intelligence, and the message they convey are seemingly pithy platitudes about loving one another and not sweating the small stuff, could it be that perhaps advanced knowledge about the physical universe is not all that important in the grand scheme of things? And furthermore, it seems to me that faulting god/the universe for not removing all obstacles/negative experiences in life is the height of arrogance and elevates man and diminishes whatever universal intelligence is out there to a mere genie in a bottle whose only function is to provide shelter from pain at the whim of a flawed creature. I think it’s a pretty universal understanding that good parenting isn’t about removing difficulties from your children but rather enforcing the importance of honesty, integrity, compassion, empathy, determination, etc. in the face of the inevitable trials and tribulations that will come their way. Otherwise it’s pretty common for those children whose parents attempt in vain to protect them from the real world become spoiled brats who believe that their parents and typically their government are that genie in the bottle. I submit that the role of the entities/universal knowledge/god may in fact have a similar relationship with us. Perhaps the impending birth of my first child has given me a lens that sees everything as a push/pull relationship revolving around this very question 😊

[QUOTE="Vastness, post: 14839807, member: 79131"
If simply doing enough DMT was sufficient to impart enough understanding of "true reality" then we would expect the world to be run by the enlightened psychedelic elite - but this does not seem to have happened. One might try to argue that the material goals and measures of success that we typically try to use cease to have meaning once one has a sufficient understand of psychedelically-imparted truths, and this is probably true - but it also means there's no external method to evaluate these truths, and applying this mode of thinking to any other drug is something most people would find instinctually problematic.
[/QUOTE]

I like this idea a lot, and from my perspective I think the value (for me, the only person I can actually speak for) of psychedelics is about restoring balance more than being imparted with wisdom from another realm. I leave open the possibility that it may in fact be true, but my intuition leads me to believe otherwise. To me, if psychedelics imparted wisdom from beyond than its value would ultimately exist only in the actual experience itself, in that nothing but the substance would grant wisdom and would therefore be exclusionary to those without access. Reading certain religious texts of all colors and stripes leads me to believe there are many paths to enlightenment and psychedelics are merely only one tool.

I don’t see much value in dissolving my ego by taking a large dose in and of itself - I’m aware that my tendency is towards an inflated ego, and that temporary shift from way to left (I’m the greatest!) to the extreme on the right (who am I?) during the experience leaves me back in the middle where I should be. Meaning, my ego is in its rightful place where I view myself as worthy of being loved and as a consequence I should, to the best of my abilities, take care of my health, family, friends, work, finances, etc in order to live a balanced life. Opposed to the extreme of “I’m not worthy of love” or the opposite “all humanity should be on bended-knee before me!” To me this is the benefit of psychedelics - restoring balance so that I am able to improve the way I lead my life during normal consciousness in a way that is obvious to both myself and those that know me. In a way I think this is also the purpose of religion/spirituality properly understood, which is what I was trying to get at in my first response above.

Also, just to be clear I am engaging with the ideas presented and not attacking the person presenting them. I don’t presume to know much about anything, but I enjoy respectfully and at times forcefully engaging with the ideas of others in the hope that it increases my limited understanding of the world around me 😊

Also, part 2, this past weekend I chewed Salvia quids until I no longer understood the meaning of chewing and I think Sally D may have passed bufotenine as the most impressively visual psychedelic. Made me wish I had any artistic ability whatsoever to convey a fleeting glimpse of the things seen and experienced.
 

Vastness

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With all due respect I think you are both guilty of the same error in logic that you are criticizing. If whatever god/entities encountered in a psychedelic experience or a religious text are indeed of a higher intelligence, and the message they convey are seemingly pithy platitudes about loving one another and not sweating the small stuff, could it be that perhaps advanced knowledge about the physical universe is not all that important in the grand scheme of things?
For sure yeah, I don't have any problem with this idea. For the record I meant my comments to be taken kind of tongue in cheek, and they were really aimed more at people who try to claim that ancient religious texts, visions of the deceased, or drug induced hallucinations should be considered to be objective evidence of the fact that these texts were written by an omnipotent being, that there is a "life after death" in the traditional sense, ie, that we retain some semblance of our individuality and can perhaps interact with the living as ghosts, or any other sort of supernatural belief one chooses to indulge. Whereas the way I see it, none of these things are really evidence, although as the saying goes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and I wouldn't try to claim that these ideas should be considered entirely false either.

And furthermore, it seems to me that faulting god/the universe for not removing all obstacles/negative experiences in life is the height of arrogance and elevates man and diminishes whatever universal intelligence is out there to a mere genie in a bottle whose only function is to provide shelter from pain at the whim of a flawed creature. I think it’s a pretty universal understanding that good parenting isn’t about removing difficulties from your children but rather enforcing the importance of honesty, integrity, compassion, empathy, determination, etc. in the face of the inevitable trials and tribulations that will come their way. Otherwise it’s pretty common for those children whose parents attempt in vain to protect them from the real world become spoiled brats who believe that their parents and typically their government are that genie in the bottle. I submit that the role of the entities/universal knowledge/god may in fact have a similar relationship with us. Perhaps the impending birth of my first child has given me a lens that sees everything as a push/pull relationship revolving around this very question 😊
Again - no disagreement there. My own perspective about the majority of modern organised theistic religions - although this could equally apply to ancient paganism - is that the anthropomorphisation of the gods, and anthropocentric way of looking at the universe - does indeed significantly diminish the majesty of the universe and of the entirety of creation. I think honestly the very idea that we could understand the mind or motivations of an omnipotent being in any way, let alone in such a specific way as to be able to extract such fine details as the commandments, elaborate prescriptive rituals and suchlike, is yet another collective human ego delusion and just ludicrous.

That said, I do believe it may well be possible to extract some kind of universal truths from our experience of being, and I have no problem with the argument that all religions are in a sense imperfect reflections of such things, diluted over the centuries by the preconceptions and biases of countless numbers of humans trying to figure out the nature of this strange, strange world.

I actually also am a great believer in the idea that "everything happens for a reason", "God works in mysterious ways" and the like, although I think these ideas are commonly misinterpreted, in actual fact however they are of course self evident. Everything does happen for a reason, in the sense that everything is preceded by some kind of cause. It's just not possible to us to actually understand all of these reasons all of the time. It can also be easily misinterpreted of course and a difficult thing to accept for people who have experienced truly horrific things in this life, but there doesn't need to be any kind of moral weight behind this statement, although it's tempting to read such moralising into it, for reasons again relating to our biased and narrow viewpoint.

Anyway just to bring it back to the "error in logic" that you noted, I 100% get what you are referring to and I agree it is an error, and not logical!

I've noticed it myself whenever discussing the nature of being with very staunch atheists of the viewpoint that everything is random, there is no higher intelligence guiding our actions, etc. Just as those who are traditionally very religious have difficulty with the idea that the creation of the universe might be simply a "natural event", whatever that means when we're talking about the beginning of nature as we know it, very hard atheists have difficulty with the idea that we were created by the universe, we were put here for a reason even if the means by which the universe did this was billions of years of evolution rather than an anthropomorphic god simply clicking his or her fingers.

In my view (and again, this might be my ego talking ;)) the only reason that one would see any real distinction between these ideas (pure randomness versus a deliberately orchestrated conscious creation) is that they haven't thought about it enough. I honestly don't see that it makes much sense when we're talking about the creator of the universe to make a distinction between god and simply the immutable forces of nature. IMO, they are one and the same, and this doesn't diminish either of them. The argument people usually try to make - and this is usually, but not exclusively, from the hardline atheists - is that there's a difference between something being done by an act of will versus just unconscious causality, a row of dominoes of inanimate matter.

And this, I think, is the route of the whole problem, and in actual fact the origin of all anthropocentric philosophies, strict, codified religious beliefs, and plenty of other - in my view - inaccurate and even harmful ideas that these same hardline atheists are so quick to condemn as pure fantasy - while unknowingly clinging on to one of the most fundamental tenets of all these ideas. That of the supernatural nature of the human experience. That of a distinction between will, and conscious experience, compared to the aforementioned row of dominoes which is unconscious, natural, and 100% deterministic.

I posit that this distinction is entirely illusory. The mechanism of choice, stripped down to it's most fundamental level, is at it's core a deterministic process. Human beings, and the experience of being human, are a part of nature, and therefore any choice we make or any time we choose to impose our will on the universe, this is an entirely natural event. There is, IMO, nothing truly "unnatural", and it is not actually possible to define an act of will in a truly logical way that separates it from the other forces of nature. Therefore, just as everything happens for a reason, everything can also said to have been done deliberately. The Earth chose to cultivate a biosphere in which we could evolve. The sun chooses to shine, spewing heavier elements and the seeds of intelligent life into the cosmos.

"But it's not really a choice, they're just following natural laws..." one might say... but so are we! It's only the illusion of our perspective that makes us believe we are doing anything other than this. Whatever inconceivably powerful event spawned the reality we now reside within was something really completely outside almost any context in which we are capable of thinking, possibly even outside the arrow of time as we understand it, and therefore it's the height of human egotism to think that it even makes sense to debate whether the creator of the universe did it "deliberately", or if it was just a "natural event" as if one somehow diminishes the other, or that there's even any meaningful difference between the 2. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that this event was - by definition - divine and our experiences of being alive from one moment to the next are therefore faint echoes of this transcendent divinity.

I understand the source of the bias of course, being conscious seems to be a great mystery, and it still is a great mystery which we do not and maybe cannot understand. It's not obvious why we are conscious, even now, why there is something rather than nothing... but from all of our perspectives, despite the fact that we can be aware of the wider universe - or at the very least, it's a convincing illusion - it's also true for all of us that when we leave a room, in a sense it ceases to exist. We will in any case have no further experience of it unless and until we choose to go back there. This being the case, it's a natural, default assumption to place human consciousness at the centre of our conception of reality - allowing also that other humans probably believe themselves and the inside of their own mind to be ground zero of reality - even though we can't even be completely sure of this. That being the case, if the experience of being conscious seems to be in a sense supernatural, then why not other supernatural things? And surely, if there is a god, or gods, they must be conscious like us? For this consciousness is something magical, something separate from the rest of nature, even above it! I think when it's spelled out like this most can understand the obvious flaw in this mode of thinking, but equally, it's obvious why this is such a persistent, shared delusion, and IMO, again, the origin of all "supernatural" belief systems.

I posted about this in the Philosophy and Spirituality forum recently and there referred to it as a kind of "Qualia Bias", the first order bias of being human that distorts our thinking about everything else. Apologies to OP for going wildly off topic, will split this discussion to a different thread if needed, as you can imagine this is something I very much enjoy thinking about so thank you for giving me the chance to think about it a little more and clarify my own thinking! :giggle:
 
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