Heroin water/heat effecting potency of a shot

[tricomb]

just here to add a little something to the "heat vs no heat" conversation. i've only ever used tar, and these days i'm getting very high quality stuff (or at least the best i've ever gotten in the last 7 years). i let it dissolve completely in cold water, which takes about 15-20 minutes. BUT, i've found that just a teeny tiny touch of heat to the liquid solution can be beneficial, not even enough to blacken the bottom of the cooker. it separates some of the cut, which disperses into black charcoal-y flakes, and more importantly, thins the solution out enough for me to draw it up through the cotton. in fact, i've found that if i don't use this minuscule "heat/cut dispersal method", the solution is too thick to even draw up into my 27 gauge needle. after i heat it (teeny bit ) i can draw it up no problems, and that flaky stuff gets left behind in the cooker. for the record, i'm preparing anywhere between .2 and .35 at a time, and, sorry, but you can't convince me that it's safer for me to not use heat and put that cut into my body when i have a chance to disperse it.

i'd like to hear what some other experienced users think of all this. i spent a long time trying to get around heating my hits after having read every FAQ under the sun, but after much trial and error, this method is simply the most effective i've come across for the product i use. looking forward to some dialogue...

^I still maintain that adding heat is counter productive, and that if you need to apply heat to get your "heroin" to flow into a 27ga, and it won't flow otherwise..... and you STILL think that's safe because you can see some obvious non-heroin particulate matter in your cooker? That isn't remotely scientific or logical, the human eye cannot detect the health consequences we are trying to prevent here..... that's the whole fucking point. So you coming in here saying that because you still SEE SHIT in one part of your solution but not in the next..., confirming that you couldn't even draw up your heroin through a 27ga without adding heat??? It really proves nothing, and I'd even go as far as to say it reinforces my argument.

What discredits you further, is your thinking that by adding heat, your "dispersing" "the flaky stuff" does a damn thing to reduce harm. The whole entire point is to NOT DISPERSE the inactive ingredient...... Sorry you can't convince me, science, and/or logic.

Maybe its easier to state it this way: The end goal here is not to create a solution you can draw into a syringe and shoot. The end goal here is to create a solution that when administered via IV, is the least-dangerous solution possible. We are not here to help people turn solids into liquids JUST because that adds the illusion of a cleaner shot.

 

[KillSurfCity]

swim never heats up his shot anymore. just adds water and filter. the dormin that its cut with here in chicago will not dissolve without the heat and i tend to perfer to take a benadryl before orally than mainlining it. plus who knows what else is being dissolved in with the heat. I like the fact that swim can see how cut the shit swims getting by the left overs...

before someone else says it...WHO'S SWIM. (we don't use SWIM here) check the guidelines blah blah blah. (i should so be moderator. i just use too many parentheses.)

 

[majorigpa]

Maybe its easier to state it this way: The end goal here is not to create a solution you can draw into a syringe and shoot. The end goal here is to create a solution that when administered via IV, is the least-dangerous solution possible. We are not here to help people turn solids into liquids JUST because that adds the illusion of a cleaner shot.

wow, sorry to ruin your saturday, i was simply sharing my experience hoping someone might have experienced something similar or have something constructive to add. i used the term "you can't convince me..." as a literary device to perhaps make myself sound more familiar, not to literally mock modern science or invite some sort of challenge. take it easy. i'm in no way suggesting that i've found a method to cook dope in my bedroom that negates the experiences of others. i'll give you the benefit of the doubt, since there are many jackasses that use this forum as some sort of junkie pseudo-intellectual dick measuring instrument, but believe it or not i'm using it for its intended purpose: to objectively introduce some relevant information and maybe gain a little insight. not hurt your feelings.

so please, allow me to talk about this while giving me the benefit of believing that i'm not challenging you, modern medicine, or the personal experience of thousands of heroin users before me. i'm using heroin. nothing about that is safe. but there is something in my heroin clogging my needle, even through a cotton filter. when i raise the temperature of the solution a mere 10 degrees or so, i can see some of this cut disperse (knowing that no doubt, there is still some nasty shit left behind) but it at least disperses enough to allow filtration through cotton. and now my honest question: isn't the removal of SOME of that cut better than the inclusion of ALL of it? if not, how can i safely thin the solution enough to allow it to be drawn into my needle?

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

wow, sorry to ruin your saturday, i was simply sharing my experience hoping someone might have experienced something similar or have something constructive to add. i used the term "you can't convince me..." as a literary device to perhaps make myself sound more familiar, not to literally mock modern science or invite some sort of challenge. take it easy. i'm in no way suggesting that i've found a method to cook dope in my bedroom that negates the experiences of others. i'll give you the benefit of the doubt, since there are many jackasses that use this forum as some sort of junkie pseudo-intellectual dick measuring instrument, but believe it or not i'm using it for its intended purpose: to objectively introduce some relevant information and maybe gain a little insight. not hurt your feelings.

so please, allow me to talk about this while giving me the benefit of believing that i'm not challenging you, modern medicine, or the personal experience of thousands of heroin users before me. i'm using heroin. nothing about that is safe. but there is something in my heroin clogging my needle, even through a cotton filter. when i raise the temperature of the solution a mere 10 degrees or so, i can see some of this cut disperse (knowing that no doubt, there is still some nasty shit left behind) but it at least disperses enough to allow filtration through cotton. and now my honest question: isn't the removal of SOME of that cut better than the inclusion of ALL of it? if not, how can i safely thin the solution enough to allow it to be drawn into my needle?

If you're having that much trouble drawing up your H into a 27G... you're getting some dreadful dope that is cut to all hell.

And you're not actually "dispersing" the cut. You're changing the properties of the liquid and basically melting the cuts into your solution. Don't mistake what you think you see happening for what is actually happening.

 

[dugefrezh]

i killed swim! ive seen it so much i figure better safe then sorry but swim is dead.. no more.. sorry!

 

[majorigpa]

If you're having that much trouble drawing up your H into a 27G... you're getting some dreadful dope that is cut to all hell.

And you're not actually "dispersing" the cut. You're changing the properties of the liquid and basically melting the cuts into your solution. Don't mistake what you think you see happening for what is actually happening.

thank you... this is the dialogue i was looking for. i always assumed it was just the amount of tar i was using at once that was making it too thick to draw. because the dope isn't bad, effects-wise it's the strongest i've ever had. but i suppose that doesn't mean it can't be cut. but what is still confusing me is this: okay i'm not dispersing it. i'm "melting it into my solution". is it not ALREADY in the solution? which is to say even if i didn't add heat it would exist in the solution and thus, in my veins? are you saying that somehow adding heat "activates" an otherwise harmless cut?

 

[Morphling]

Diamorphine doesn't start converting to morphine in water for at least 6 hours, what a crock of shit this guy is telling you.

 

[twotoomany]

okay i'm not dispersing it. i'm "melting it into my solution". is it not ALREADY in the solution? which is to say even if i didn't add heat it would exist in the solution and thus, in my veins? are you saying that somehow adding heat "activates" an otherwise harmless cut?

I think the point people are trying to make is that unless the cut is highly water soluble, it WON'T be in your solution, but will remain undisolved. By heating the solution, even as little as a few degrees, you change the amount of "insoluble" cuts that the water is capable of carrying. For example: you can dissolve a lot more sugar in hot water than you can in cold. When the water cools, some of the sugar will precipitate out.

 

[KillSurfCity]

i killed swim! Ive seen it so much i figure better safe then sorry but swim is dead.. No more.. Sorry!

lol :D

 

[majorigpa]

I think the point people are trying to make is that unless the cut is highly water soluble, it WON'T be in your solution, but will remain undisolved. By heating the solution, even as little as a few degrees, you change the amount of "insoluble" cuts that the water is capable of carrying. For example: you can dissolve a lot more sugar in hot water than you can in cold. When the water cools, some of the sugar will precipitate out.

i see i see, that makes sense. now my problem remains though, how to thin the solution enough to draw it through my filter without clogging my needle. purity is not the issue, this tar is the best i've come across in all my years. i really think i'm just at a point where i'm using so much of such a thick substance that theres no way around it... makes the elusive ECP seem all the more intriguing...

 

[tricomb]

^Purity is always an issue, especially in your case. If it wasn't, you wouldn't even be having this problem.

okay i'm not dispersing it. i'm "melting it into my solution". is it not ALREADY in the solution? which is to say even if i didn't add heat it would exist in the solution and thus, in my veins? are you saying that somehow adding heat "activates" an otherwise harmless cut?

No..... Basic chemistry principals at work here. It's the principal of Phase Transitions. Solid left behind is JUST THAT, a SOLID, left behind, we call it "precipitate" (singular usage, not plural).

By adding heat, you don't "activate" an otherwise harmless cut, you TEMPORARILY turn harmful cuts from solid to liquid state (Consider an ice cube that is melting. Solid H20 going through melting) where it later turns back into solid form (after you've injected it, so your "solution" and the solids you melted into it, precipitate back out, meaning it returns to it's natural solid state.......this happens in your bloodstream/fine blood vessels/lungs/extremities) which drastically increases the risk of future cardiovascular/pulmonary system complications/failure.

Imagine that your tar heroin as a ice cube that you can SEE has particles of shit, dirt, dust, sand, or whatever, would applying heat to the ice cube make the solids "inactive"? Would it make the contaminates disappear or go away? No. It doesn't. Heating doesn't "activate" anything besides the phase transition. It's not like THCa which needs to be heated and "activated" reach a certain temperature to be decarboxylated like THCa --> THC.

 

[majorigpa]

i gotcha, it's making sense to me now. i guess there's no right way to go about it. either the adulterants remain solid throughout the entire journey into my bloodstream, or in an attempt to remove what i can with mild heat, some will get trapped in the filter or left behind and some will simply precipitate back into my bloodstream later, along with new adulterants that would've otherwise been caught in my filter were it not for the heat. Wow, IV heroin use yielding a lose-lose result, who woulda thunk it...

 

[tricomb]

i gotcha, it's making sense to me now. i guess there's no right way to go about it. either the adulterants remain solid throughout the entire journey into my bloodstream, or in an attempt to remove what i can with mild heat, some will get trapped in the filter or left behind and some will simply precipitate back into my bloodstream later, along with new adulterants that would've otherwise been caught in my filter were it not for the heat. Wow, IV heroin use yielding a lose-lose result, who woulda thunk it...

No, there are ways around it. Look into micron filtration. That's the safest way to use your tar heroin. You could even add the gentle heat you were talking about provided that you are going to
A) use a micron filter (The best filters are 0.2um which only allow particles smaller than 0.2um to pass through them, which reduces but does not eliminate many of the risks of intravenous drug prepping processes, the next best would be a 0.45um,

and

B) allow it to cool down completely before you filter (like I'd estimate about 15 minutes if at room temperature) or forcefully cool the solution you gently heated (again, by estimating about 5-10 minutes in the refrigerator)

C) use sterile container / equipment throughout the entire prep process, including vigorous hygiene (washing hands & having trimmed and clean nails, using antibacterial soap, and avoid touching ANYTHING throughout the ENTIRE PROCESS that will end up in your veins. This means DON'T HANDLE THE HEROIN YOU INTEND TO INJECT WITH YOUR DIRTY HANDS.) This should go without saying but you would be surprised how many people don't even wash their hands let alone use proper sanitation and hygiene like correct use of isopropyl alcohol and sterile equipment and proper disposal of the biohazards left behind from IV drug abuse.

REMEMBER YOUR ABCs.
ALWAYS
BE
CLEAN

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/489449-Heirarchy-of-water-for-injection-safety

Thought this might be a useful thread to help counter the popular myth that bottled spring water is safer to inject than regular tap water. This issue has been thoroughly researched by harm reduction services across the world, and the following has been published by Exchange Supplies. This advice was written for the UK, however it applies to basically all countries in the developed world, who have standards in place on the treatment of drinking water.

Hierarchy of Water Risks (Safest to least safe)

1) Unopened ampoule of sterile water

The 'gold standard' for safety, an ampoule of water for injections means that the water used for dissolving the drugs isn't going to be the source of viral or bacterial infection.

2) Boiled water

Boiling water in a kettle will kill virtually all organisms, and using boiled water from a kettle is the advice to injectors who do not have an ampoule of water for injections.

Although it is true that to guarantee that even the most resistant pathogens are killed the water should be boiled for several minutes, in practice the additional benefits are few and advice to boil water in a pan is problematic because:

* the water takes time to cool, and could become contaminated during cooling;
* the pan or lid used to boil the water could be contaminated; and
* the advice is unlikely to be followed, and there is a risk that injectors will take the view that if they can't follow the advice, then they might as well not bother doing anything because they are taking a risk anyway.

3) Kitchen tap - cold water

The reason the poster differentiates the kitchen tap from other taps in the house is that the kitchen tap is usually fed from the rising main which, in the UK, is usually virtually or completely free from bacteria.

Water from bathroom taps may have been stored in a cold water tank in the roof where it can become much more contaminated with bacteria: not a problem if you're drinking it, the acid of the stomach is able to kill low levels of bacteria without a problem, but not so good if the water is being injected.

4) Bottled water

The constant advertising and marketing of bottled water has created a strong perception in the public psyche of it as a pure, safe source of water that is better than tap water.

Certainly in the UK it is open to debate whether this is true in terms of drinking water – the UK has a very good safety record for our drinking water which is pure and free from contamination. But for use as a liquid for dissolving drugs for injection, there is no debate: tap water is almost always better than bottled water because the bacteria count will be lower. The bacteria count in bottled water is much higher than in tap water, and varies according to the temperature at which it is stored, and can be very high if someone has drunk the water from the bottle.

This is not to say that the bacteria in bottled water are harmful if drunk – the acid in your stomach is perfectly well able to kill bacteria at these levels, however when injected intravenously, they can cause infections.

Distilled water

Distilled water is boiled and then condensed to ensure it is free of all minerals, and people could be excused for thinking that it might be sterile. However, the end use of distilled water is in machinery and there is no requirement for the water to be clean in terms of bacteria count. Indeed the condensing plates and bottling plants are often low tech, and dirty.

5) Hot water from a tap

The water in a domestic hot water tank is not hot enough to kill all bacteria. If the tank has been warmed and cooled, the bacteria count can grow.

6) Toilet water

It could be argued that pointing out the dangers of drawing water out of a toilet is stating the obvious, but having it there – and not at the bottom of the list – makes the point that the other sources of water below it are *really* dangerous.

There was some debate in the drafting process about whether the harm reduction advice to take water from the cistern rather than the bowl, but we didn't for two reasons:

* firstly, most public toilets have the cisterns secured and inaccessible; and
* secondly where people can access cisterns they can usually access a tap.

7) Puddle water

As with toilet water this is on the poster to highlight the serious nature of the risks associated with water that could be contaminated with blood.

The advice to catch rain water instead was suggested by homeless drug users, who described it as a harm reduction strategy they had developed.

8) Part-used ampoule

Many injecting drug users underestimate the risks of sharing the source of water that they use for preparing their drugs for injection.

Because ampoules of water for injections 'feel' medical, safe and sterile, injectors will sometimes choose to take water from a part used ampoule. Clearly this carries a very high risk of viral infection (hep C, hep B, HIV), and this is highlighted by the position of the opened ampoule below water from toilets and puddles.

9) Shared cup

Too often when there is a group of injectors together in a room, the source of water used for preparing drugs for injection, is a single cup of water.

Sometimes this same cup is used to draw water to clean injecting equipment, and to repeatedly draw water to prepare drugs for injection.

This presents a significant risk of blood borne virus transmission, and one of the key functions of the poster is to highlight this risk and danger - which many injectors are not aware of, or underestimate.

There was some debate during the peer review process as to whether the ampoule was higher risk than the cup, but as the ampoule has a limited volume it is unlikely that it could have been contaminated by more than one person, whereas the cup could have been contaminated by many – hence it's position at the bottom of the table.

 

[majorigpa]

^ thanks tricomb. i'm actually freakishly hygienic believe it or not. i always unpackage a clean needle for every hit. wash hands before, during, and after prep. use sterile water and cookers provided to me via needle exchange. swab injection site. rotate injection site. post-injection aftercare. literally the only thing missing from my routine are micron filters, and given what i've learned here today i think it's about time. only reason i've been putting it off this long is the price. i'll need at least 10 a week, and i know i'll never be able to go back to a cotton ball once i've seen the difference. but again, it's about time i did my body a favor. who knows, maybe the added expense of micron filters will cause me to cut back!! ...

thanks again

 

[RedRum OG]

I used to get tar that was for all intensive purposes, uncut. It needed heat for sure cuz it was like a rock, otherwise wouldve taken near 30 min to dissolve on its own

But yea if youre getting shitty west coast tar, no need to heat if its that nasty gooey cut

If you get that ultra fire minneapolis mexican tar, nothing to worry about, .01g IV would have a no tolerance person rocked

 

[tricomb]

^ thanks tricomb. i'm actually freakishly hygienic believe it or not. i always unpackage a clean needle for every hit. wash hands before, during, and after prep. use sterile water and cookers provided to me via needle exchange. swab injection site. rotate injection site. post-injection aftercare. literally the only thing missing from my routine are micron filters, and given what i've learned here today i think it's about time. only reason i've been putting it off this long is the price. i'll need at least 10 a week, and i know i'll never be able to go back to a cotton ball once i've seen the difference. but again, it's about time i did my body a favor. who knows, maybe the added expense of micron filters will cause me to cut back!! ...

thanks again

I'm very glad that I was able to convey my point without you just feeling like I was an asshole. Sometimes, when you see the things I see day after day, you tend to drop the niceties and just get straight to the point (no pun intended).

PLEASE invest in micron filters. I swear on ALL that is holy that they A) are NOT THAT EXPENSIVE especially B) when bought in bulk (we can't discuss sources here but A SIMPLE Google search will lead you to Americas favorite online shopping center................................
and C) You truly will never go back to cotton, ask mr.flowers00. He bangs like 500mg of roxicodone a day, and before I bothered the shit out of him, he wasn't micron filtering. Now, well if he sees this he can reply and attest to the long-term health benefits one gains by utilizing micron filtration over other lesser methods.

Micron filtration, especially the 0.2um ones, have a pore size so small that only the heroin, water, a trace amount of inactives smaller in particle size than 0.2um (but better than having like, 75-100% of the inactive ingredients contaminating your shot otherwise, and I think saying that a cotton filter could remove even 25% of the inactive ingredients in street heroin, I think that figure is way too high.)

Your shooting black tar heroin. This is not east coast powder. All intravenous drug users should be using micron filters when their drug wasn't formulated specifically for IV use (and let's skip the black tar heroin was designed to be cooked and shot or smoked discussion because yeah, they designed it so that it COULD be, but not in any remotely safe way.)

 

[majorigpa]

yeah there was certainly some shortsightedness on my end as well. i didn't think about the fact that there are hundreds of us members to keep whipped into shape and only a handful of mods to get it done. nor can you be expected to accurately assess my demeanor in a single posts worth of dialogue. i don't know it all but i ain't no dummy and i have nothing but respect for the mods as well as the long-time members, and i truly value any information either source has deemed fit to share with me. micron filters are now my new project, and i should be getting my tax return any day now. this next bags on Uncle Sam...

 

[tricomb]

^ I like your style. Stick around! Again, sorry if we come off as short, like you said, it's not personal, it's the endless repetition/redundancy. I'm very glad that you will be looking into the best filtration and thus, the best healthcare and safest drug abuse that you can provide for yourself. It's truly the best gift you can give yourself. Be thankful for the little things.... even the expensive little things. they tend to be what save our lives. Big things come in small packages. yarramean?

 

[down508]

do not heat the shot!!! again, i repeat, DONT FUCKING HEAT YOUR SHOTS!!! heating the shot will cause all the bacteria and cuts to dissolve into your shot, which is counterproductive. putting water on the dope separates the heroin from the cuts, so by heating the shot you are doing the exact opposite of what you are trying to obtain by ptting the liquid on the dope in the first place....

dont heat shots, dont heat shots, dont heat shots!

I had this debate with my friend who goes to school for chemistry. I had the same opinion as you minu the "bacteria dissolving in water" bit, and he said he does it to kill all the bacteria. I told him it causes cuts to dissolve and he said even if they do dissolve when the shot cools down they will precipitate. so I now think heating your shot doesn't do any harm, although it may kill some actives.

 

[tricomb]

I had this debate with my friend who goes to school for chemistry. I had the same opinion as you minu the "bacteria dissolving in water" bit, and he said he does it to kill all the bacteria. I told him it causes cuts to dissolve and he said even if they do dissolve when the shot cools down they will precipitate. so I now think heating your shot doesn't do any harm, although it may kill some actives.

Yeah this is what I said in my post, except for the killing actives. I doubt that happens depending on the drug though.
The thing is, most addicts are inadequately filtering the solution while it's still hot, before the cuts have a chance to precipitate back out. Hence, why I went into such detail about the cooling down process.