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☠ WARNING ☠ *WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage

MonkeysOnEcstacy

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Interesting stuff. Funny that I have a urologist friend who I tend to get my K from. Guess it's just good business to him... 😉🤔

I will have to pick his brain over this stuff next time we're together.

In other related notes, I haven't seen any mention of Olney's lesions also known as NMDA receptor antagonist neurotoxicity (NAN), are a form of potential brain damage due to drugs that have been studied experimentally and have produced neuronal damage, yet are administered by doctors to humans in the settings of pharmacotherapy and of anesthesia.


This study revealed the lesions in many regions of the brain of ketamine addicts. These lesions appeared as minute patches in the first year and became larger sites of atrophy by 4 years of addiction. The majority of the addicts was on dosage of 1 g per day and used ketamine daily for several years. In this work, since the volunteers were mostly below 30 years old and only 2 individuals above 30 years old, a comparison of the effect of age upon addiction was not conclusive in this stage, even though we had seen no worse in the aged group (above 30 years old) when compared with the slightly younger old. A study of age response would definitely be conducted in future. However, it is well-known that ketamine addicts were usually young as represented in this cohort. The brain regions affected were prefrontal, parietal, occipital, limbic, brainstem, and corpus striatum. The lesions affected both the gray and white matter, i.e., neurons and nerve fibers in the human; these were similar to those reported earlier by us in the mice and the monkey (Yu et al., 2012). This MRI study also collated with the work by Morgan and Curran suggesting a loss of memory via psychological examination in chronic ketamine abuses (Morgan and Curran, 2006). In animals, prefrontal cortex apoptosis, mutated tau aggregation, brainstem chemical changes, and cerebellar apoptosis had been reported (Mak et al., 2010; Yeung et al., 2010b; Sun et al., 2011, 2012; Tan et al., 2011b, 2012; Yu et al., 2012; Wai et al., 2013). In fact, in the mice model, it had been documented both neurons and fibers (white matter) were both targets like in this report consisting of human subjects (Mak et al., 2010; Yeung et al., 2010b). Along with structural changes, fMRI and functional studies confirmed functional and cognitive derangements (Morgan and Curran, 2006; Sun et al., 2011, 2012; Chan et al., 2012; Yu et al., 2012). This human MRI brain imaging on the ketamine addicts thus consolidated that the areas of lesion in mice, monkey, and human were essentially similar. We now have clear and unequivocal proof of damages in the CNS upon chronic use of ketamine in human



This shit scares the piss out of me (pun intended 🤫) but I still love me some dissos, although it's been over a year now.

Did anyone else ever notice the brain damage / concussed feel that others often refer to as "afterglow" from some dissos (specifically DXM). Its been almost 20 years since I last touched that stuff, but I know for a fact it was seriously fucking up my brain.
 

Vastness

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interstitial cystitis is considered a permanent condition, the bladder wall does not grow back - this is what I've read, but I am not a urologist. My use was quite light. I had friends using absurd amounts more than me that didn't develop problems. The only diagnostic that can make a definitive finding is a cystoscopy.

In my case, there were minor sensations and feelings for a year or two when they first started, that would only appear when using NMDA antagonists. Then i started to notice them when doing other drugs (kratom and stimulants in particular).

I went from not thinking I had much bladder damage to enduring months and months of pain that was the worst pain imaginable. It all happened very quickly in how it escalted. We can tell ourselves all day that using a little won't hurt or that taking breaks allows the bladder to heal. The truth is that these drugs (the RCs) are all new and we don't know a damn thing about them.

Just because bladder pain subsides does not mean your bladder has healed it self. I have periods with no pain whatsoever that last for weeks or months even. One spicy dish, one wrong drug...a world of pain is unleashed. The damage is permanent just because the pain isn't.
Damn... that is concerning. I guess I'm not overly surprised though. I'm at the point right now seemingly that even doing small amounts of MXE (~100mg in a night) will give me bladder pain and urinary retention during, or at least, as soon as the immediate dissociation wears off, and maybe the day after. Larger amounts of ketamine can cause more persistent uncomfortable sensations but I haven't touched that stuff in just over 2 months (65 days to be exact). Hopefully I've managed to call time on ACHs in time... I do wonder sometimes if my bladder capacity has reduced slightly, but just not to the point of clinical significance... I'd be very interested to get a cystoscopy but I suppose it wouldn't be easy to get without more persistent symptoms, and maybe not worth it anyway because it sounds a fairly unpleasant procedure!
 

Cream Gravy?

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Interesting stuff. Funny that I have a urologist friend who I tend to get my K from. Guess it's just good business to him... 😉🤔

I will have to pick his brain over this stuff next time we're together.

In other related notes, I haven't seen any mention of Olney's lesions also known as NMDA receptor antagonist neurotoxicity (NAN), are a form of potential brain damage due to drugs that have been studied experimentally and have produced neuronal damage, yet are administered by doctors to humans in the settings of pharmacotherapy and of anesthesia.






This shit scares the piss out of me (pun intended 🤫) but I still love me some dissos, although it's been over a year now.

Did anyone else ever notice the brain damage / concussed feel that others often refer to as "afterglow" from some dissos (specifically DXM). Its been almost 20 years since I last touched that stuff, but I know for a fact it was seriously fucking up my brain.
Pretty sure it's generally assumed Olney's Lesions are a fabricated/inaccurate portrayal of NMDA action in the brain; however, DXM abuse I bet might still cause some sort of long term issues. I only ever abused MXE and I feel none the worse for it and never think twice about Olney. DXM is a crazy one though, it's like booze, a shotgun to the brain.
 

MonkeysOnEcstacy

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I've heard that side of the Olney's lesions take too, any supporting info on the "fabricated/exaggerated"?

The study I posted is relatively old (2013) and also a very small sample size of users who are at 1g a day for multiple years.... so I'm sure there is new info
 

Aeon Psyche

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After working my way through 50 gr 2-f-dck I had serious liver problems, whenever I used again I would go insane from the pain. I would be up all night screaming out loud untill the pain passed. I tried some methadone for pain relief but that worked nada. I'm glad it's over.
 

JackARoe

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Nothing to do with dissociatives. But 25 years ago a week after I broke up with a girlfriend I was peeing blood. So I went to a doctor, drank some chalk and had some test where I layed on a slab and had some type of xray (can't remember the test name) Then my last test was a cystoscopy . I remember that morning. I objected but the doc said as I am objecting he could be done. So I lay down and he inserts a camera that looks like a large wide pen all the way up my penis totally sober. He tells me to look at the screen and bladder as while he wiggles that thing up my penis. He finishes and leaves. So I march into his office and asked what the deal was. He said my bladder was fine and since nothing is wrong it is a known thing that some men break blood vessels and it was probably nothing. I go home and go to work and I could not pee and my face was like sucking lemons. Then I relaxed and peed. A week later the blood stopped and I never peed blood again. I think I had something from the girl I broke up with. :oops:

But yeah cystoscopy, not pleasant. I always said I could never do it but that doc talked me into it. I have a healthy bladder. I only think of it when I have to pee. And I can sleep 7 hours without peeing. lol

I think Lucid is probaby making more people aware of possible damage in a good way. Stay healthy folks. Party smart.
 

LucidSDreamr

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^ cystoscpy with no anesthesia? thats pretty barbaric. My urologist said if i ever get one i'll be under general anesthesia.

After working my way through 50 gr 2-f-dck I had serious liver problems, whenever I used again I would go insane from the pain. I would be up all night screaming out loud untill the pain passed. I tried some methadone for pain relief but that worked nada. I'm glad it's over.

thats pretty scary. did you get your liver ezymes tested ever?
 

JackARoe

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^ cystoscpy with no anesthesia? thats pretty barbaric. My urologist said if i ever get one i'll be under general anesthesia.

I was sober as going to work on a Monday morning. The doc was arrogant. He gave me nothing. He should have also told me to go home and have a warm bath so I can pee instead of going to work. A well, long time ago. But yeah, sober.
 

Vastness

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So, disappointed to report I broke my self imposed no more ACHs rule (for at least a year) and did an unspecified and completely pointless amount of MXE after coming home drunk, eyeballed as my scales were elsewhere, but I estimate between 100-200mg total.

Predictably felt very scattered the days after, predictably had some increased bladder awareness in the following days. I did not take my EGCG again as I didn't have any. I was also drunk at the time so probably dehydrated. I would say however my symptoms on the whole were less than 28 days earlier, my previous ACH indulgence.

In the week since I have taken daily 3000mg glucosamine sulphate, 300mg hyaluronic acid, and 2000mg D-Mannose daily, all orally, and after 5 or 6 days I would say my symptoms have totally resolved.

Purely anecdotal of course, and from what I read/surmise the primary impact of these substances is likely to be relief of symptoms, and reduction of early stage inflammation, but I thought it worth sharing as this effect may still attenuate the development of such early stage inflammation into anything more serious.

I also had taken BPC-157, 10mg total, via nasal spray over approximately 2 weeks in the intervening 28 days - that soft tissue healing peptide I keep mentioning - so perhaps that had some impact in reducing the severity and persistence of symptoms this time around.

I would say prior to this, I HAVE noticed a small improvement in other bladder symptoms, in the form of reduced frequency of urination, reduced night time awakening to urinate... so perhaps the BPC-157 in combination with abstinence had some impact here as well - although, I will note, I was uncertain prior to this if any perceived changes in bladder habits were psychosomatic in origin.

More experimentation needed of course - although it won't be experimentation I will personally be doing, since I flushed my remaining MXE, obviously I just can't trust myself to have these substances around right now. Will perhaps try revisiting in no less than 1 year from now if I still have any pull towards this sketchy chemical class by then.
 

ItsclearlyFake

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For what I´m reading even a use of 500mg every 3-4weeks, could be already kind of risky, right?

Like I thought this kind of problems were associated with heavy use but reading more and more of this it looks the threshold it´s pretty thin :oops:

After working my way through 50 gr 2-f-dck I had serious liver problems, whenever I used again I would go insane from the pain. I would be up all night screaming out loud untill the pain passed. I tried some methadone for pain relief but that worked nada. I'm glad it's over.
In how much time did you go through those 50gr?
 
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LucidSDreamr

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For what I´m reading even a use of 500mg every 3-4weeks, could be already kind of risky, right?

Like I thought this kind of problems were associated with heavy use but reading more and more of this it looks the threshold it´s pretty thin :oops:


In how much time did you go through those 50gr?

that is about the heaviest i ever used of MXE. usually far less less with long breaks. when my symptoms actually started i was using pretty lightly. The GAG layer of the bladder wall does not regenerate. all this treatment with things to bring down inflammation is nice and dandy and will help symptoms, but the bladder wall is still thinner and forever suceptible to further trauma. This is why breaks don't really do anything other than delay damage, they don't fix the problem.
 

Chris Timothy

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Hmm.. not sure I buy that. Don't get me wrong, what you're saying applies to kidney damage for sure so your point definitely stands. But my understanding is that, additionally, the bladder wall turns fibrous. Mine feels like it's been toughened into insensitivity, and it has expanded since to accommodate all the cooling fluids just fine. Again, plenty of worries left for the kidneys, one can also feel that kidney damage isn't very reversible. But Bladdy McBladface is really the last of the organs I expect to fail me!
 

Captain.Heroin

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I have also not developed any problems despite near-daily 3-MeO-PCP for like 2 years. However in general I do have to pee often... but I've always been that way. it might be a little worse but it's hard to say.

Agreed that ketamine is worse than the others, but I believe it isn't anything to do with the molecule itself, but rather the MUCH larger doses required.

Some people seem to develop problems very quickly even after light to moderate use, while some never develop problems, so it's likely partly down to individual metabolic or other factors.
Near daily 3 meo pcp for 2 YEARS?

WHAT?? did i just read that right???
 

Xorkoth

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Yeah, it was somewhere a little more than 1.5 years. I used it in ~2mg doses, I'd do 1-4 of them a day. Very low doses but the point was to produce a hypomanic state which it worked well for. I never liked its dissociating effects, too cold/weird. I was going for sub-dissociative effects. Even so I would definitely NOT recommend doling what I did.
 

Chris Timothy

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Using disso powers for its own harm reduction works surprisingly well. But even then, it's putting harm down to the level of perception, and as perception changes over time, so does harm. It's because I can't remember how my kidneys felt like before MXE that I feel totally fine with the holiday year / year and a half / don't know don't care / what even is time. =D

So it's not even denial, it's just how the mind works.

Just sucks to be a kidney I suppose?
 

Captain.Heroin

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Yeah, it was somewhere a little more than 1.5 years. I used it in ~2mg doses, I'd do 1-4 of them a day. Very low doses but the point was to produce a hypomanic state which it worked well for. I never liked its dissociating effects, too cold/weird. I was going for sub-dissociative effects. Even so I would definitely NOT recommend doling what I did.
I like to hole... I take it K is the best option?

I hear 2-fdck is pretty good for this stuff but why elonage the timelessness of a K experience?
I heard some people LOVED 3, 4 meo shit.

MY FRIENDS THINK I AM LOONY TUNES BANANAS PSYCHO-CRAZY FOR EVEN ATTEMPTING a top-level K hole and REPEATING THE EXPERIENCE and loving it

...how could ANYONE stay holed for 2 weeks in a row is beyond my comprehension.

Aeon please share details, hard-heads want to know more.
 
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