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☠ WARNING ☠ *WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage

Vastness

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Just btw, to anyone new to ketamine - this sort if damage is from pretty extreme abuse. I used to abuse >5g a session every couple months, and now use ~1-2g once a month for half a decade with no issue to speak of.

Its like the difference between someone who drinks a six pack vs someone who drinks a liter of vodka, and its effects on the liver.
IMO this post is not true, helpful, or in the spirit of harm reduction.

Ketamine and arylcyclohexylamine damage is cumulative in a far more dangerous and deceptive way than alcohol abuse.

Serious alcohol abuse is usually visible early. On the other hand, ketamine abuse is not. The comparison is not a good one, the way people use these drugs is completely different. It's quite possible for someone to have an entirely secret ketamine habit using a few grams a month alone and still develop serious problems. You cannot say categorically that this sort of damage is from "pretty extreme abuse" when this entire thread has multiple examples that people's ideas about how much ketamine is too much are all kinds of distorted and wrong.

Additionally - alcohol abuse primarily affects the liver, although obviously other organs are and can be affected. Liver damage, again, has very visible signs before it becomes irreversible. Jaundice is very easy to diagnose. The liver is also an extremely regenerative organ. Simply ceasing alcohol use for a long enough period is usually enough to allow it to recover, and there are other drugs that can be used that mostly do what alcohol does but better, and are not nearly as harmful, even close to being entirely biologically benign, so someone with an actual diagnosable addiction can substitute with another drug, if they so choose, making the path away from liver failure and probably death an easier one for the alcohol addict than for those who develop a serious problem with dissociatives - because the toxic elements of dissociatives seemingly span the entire class of arylcyclohexylamines, and to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing that quite replicates the desirable effects of this class, which seem to be quite unique.

Ketamine on the other hand affects the bladder and kidneys - none of these organs are especially regenerative, and bladder symptoms are variable, sporadic, resemble other conditions, may come and go, may in some cases even be reversible although that is up for debate as has been happening throughout this thread. In short, it's easy to convince oneself that their bladder is actually fine - when it's not - and while I concede it's probably easy for an alcoholic to convince themselves that their liver is fine when it's really not, this is less of a problem than it is for the ketamine user, because again, the liver is a highly regenerative organ - the bladder is not.

What should be even more concerning, really, but is mentioned far less, is the toxic effect on the kidneys that ketamine and all drugs from the same class appear to have - the kidneys are very very good at compensating for reduced function, until a threshold is reached when suddenly, they're not. Chronic kidney disease is highly underdiagnosed, and a failing kidney often has no symptoms until it's almost too late. The kidneys do not regenerate, at least not significantly, although function can be improved in the early stages. While everyone is talking about bladder symptoms - I would bet that almost any heavy user of ketamine or ketamine like dissociatives - and by heavy I mean more than a few grams a year, honestly, for most people - already has reduced kidney function but just doesn't know it.

I find your post pretty dismissive, misinformed, and dangerous to new ketamine users. I haven't even got into the subtle addictive pull of dissociatives which is quite different to many other drugs, especially alcohol.

There is, it seems, undeniably some significant variation in how people respond to dissociatives, as far as how susceptible they are to lasting damage, which I've said before and maintain is probably largely genetic, although other lifestyle factors are no doubt involved, as they always are.

You've been lucky. Simple as that. Many others have not been so, and despite all these warnings, will not be so lucky. Please don't be flippant about ketamine's dangers, just be grateful for your own health. And get your eGFR checked, properly, by a company that will take a blood and urine sample on the same day, and test the highest amount of biomarkers you can find. Don't just go for some low-budget option that just tests a couple of biomarkers and gives you a range that caps out at a certain level, like >90, for one it's not accurate, for another, even if it is it doesn't mean you're not at risk, it just means you probably don't have Chronic Kidney Disease yet. For all you know, your eGFR could be dropping several points with every monthly binge. Once you have an accurate figure from a reputable and thorough company, compare it against what would be expected for your age.

You think you're fine, but you might not be as well as you think.

Same goes for everyone who reads this thread and thinks eh, I feel alright, couple grams a month, no big deal. For some... maybe that's true. For many others, it's not.
 

telepathetic

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IMO this post is not true, helpful, or in the spirit of harm reduction.

Ketamine and arylcyclohexylamine damage is cumulative in a far more dangerous and deceptive way than alcohol abuse.

Serious alcohol abuse is usually visible early. On the other hand, ketamine abuse is not. The comparison is not a good one, the way people use these drugs is completely different. It's quite possible for someone to have an entirely secret ketamine habit using a few grams a month alone and still develop serious problems. You cannot say categorically that this sort of damage is from "pretty extreme abuse" when this entire thread has multiple examples that people's ideas about how much ketamine is too much are all kinds of distorted and wrong.

Additionally - alcohol abuse primarily affects the liver, although obviously other organs are and can be affected. Liver damage, again, has very visible signs before it becomes irreversible. Jaundice is very easy to diagnose. The liver is also an extremely regenerative organ. Simply ceasing alcohol use for a long enough period is usually enough to allow it to recover, and there are other drugs that can be used that mostly do what alcohol does but better, and are not nearly as harmful, even close to being entirely biologically benign, so someone with an actual diagnosable addiction can substitute with another drug, if they so choose, making the path away from liver failure and probably death an easier one for the alcohol addict than for those who develop a serious problem with dissociatives - because the toxic elements of dissociatives seemingly span the entire class of arylcyclohexylamines, and to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing that quite replicates the desirable effects of this class, which seem to be quite unique.

Ketamine on the other hand affects the bladder and kidneys - none of these organs are especially regenerative, and bladder symptoms are variable, sporadic, resemble other conditions, may come and go, may in some cases even be reversible although that is up for debate as has been happening throughout this thread. In short, it's easy to convince oneself that their bladder is actually fine - when it's not - and while I concede it's probably easy for an alcoholic to convince themselves that their liver is fine when it's really not, this is less of a problem than it is for the ketamine user, because again, the liver is a highly regenerative organ - the bladder is not.

What should be even more concerning, really, but is mentioned far less, is the toxic effect on the kidneys that ketamine and all drugs from the same class appear to have - the kidneys are very very good at compensating for reduced function, until a threshold is reached when suddenly, they're not. Chronic kidney disease is highly underdiagnosed, and a failing kidney often has no symptoms until it's almost too late. The kidneys do not regenerate, at least not significantly, although function can be improved in the early stages. While everyone is talking about bladder symptoms - I would bet that almost any heavy user of ketamine or ketamine like dissociatives - and by heavy I mean more than a few grams a year, honestly, for most people - already has reduced kidney function but just doesn't know it.

I find your post pretty dismissive, misinformed, and dangerous to new ketamine users. I haven't even got into the subtle addictive pull of dissociatives which is quite different to many other drugs, especially alcohol.

There is, it seems, undeniably some significant variation in how people respond to dissociatives, as far as how susceptible they are to lasting damage, which I've said before and maintain is probably largely genetic, although other lifestyle factors are no doubt involved, as they always are.

You've been lucky. Simple as that. Many others have not been so, and despite all these warnings, will not be so lucky. Please don't be flippant about ketamine's dangers, just be grateful for your own health. And get your eGFR checked, properly, by a company that will take a blood and urine sample on the same day, and test the highest amount of biomarkers you can find. Don't just go for some low-budget option that just tests a couple of biomarkers and gives you a range that caps out at a certain level, like >90, for one it's not accurate, for another, even if it is it doesn't mean you're not at risk, it just means you probably don't have Chronic Kidney Disease yet. For all you know, your eGFR could be dropping several points with every monthly binge. Once you have an accurate figure from a reputable and thorough company, compare it against what would be expected for your age.

You think you're fine, but you might not be as well as you think.

Same goes for everyone who reads this thread and thinks eh, I feel alright, couple grams a month, no big deal. For some... maybe that's true. For many others, it's not.
I have had extensive blood work done and my kidneys are functioning fine with my level of use remaining consistent for more than a decade.

Sorry you have had to suffer though :(

I will update this thread if it ever happens to me.

I will also talk to a doctor and be open about why and have the specific test you mentioned done, though I do think it was likely checked during my screening for this clinical trial or in the regular CBCs I get.

IMO/IME it is really only daily users who encounter this issue, no?
 

Vastness

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IMO/IME it is really only daily users who encounter this issue, no?
NO, it really isn't!

Even occasional users can develop issues. The reasons for this variation are not well understood or really studied, as again, has been discussed at great length in this thread, sorry, I don't mean to come across as rude but it seems like you just haven't read any of it at all and are just chiming in with the exact misconception that this whole thread is trying to dispel.

I am glad to hear you're in good health regardless, and thank you for your condolences, I have suffered but not nearly as much as some others who've posted here have, who I'm sure find your posts which, frankly, come across as fairly ignorant and completely tone-deaf, even more frustrating than I do.

I have yet to be able to measure anything though, my kidney function tests specifically have also come back fine, if just slightly below average for my age - but, not outside the realm of normal human variation. But actually I am going to book another test now and will report back because I might have fucked myself finally this time. Hopefully it will resolve with abstinence but I was not and never have been a daily user. It's not smart to obviously keep doing harmful dissociatives until finally something measurable comes up of course, I will share more detail after the fact.

For the record I do actually think it is possible to maintain an occasional dissociative habit with the correct precautions taken, I'm not saying it's impossible and no one should ever do them, but the dangers are severely understated and people need to be made aware of that and not lulled into a false sense of security by this tired old myth that it's only the most extreme addicts who ever develop problems. Again, you've been lucky, that's it. Be grateful and please don't spread harmful myths about dissociative safety.
 

LucidSDreamr

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DXM isn't an arylcyclohexylamine so it doesn't seem to share this urinary/kidney damage, though I don't know if it causes other kinds of damage. Best thing you can do is go to a doctor to get blood work/a checkup and see if anything is off.
I recall a paper I read years ago positing the mechanism is nmda antagonism related. This pharmacological action caused an immune cascsde and cytokine release that attacked the bladder causing damage.

So it's not the drug per se causing damage. I found the paper after another user in the neuroscience subforum (I believe he was a physician or scientist) discussed this mechanism then I went digging around on Google scholar and found the paper.

If this is infact true then dxm would also cause problems
 

polarthedog

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I recall a paper I read years ago positing the mechanism is nmda antagonism related. This pharmacological action caused an immune cascsde and cytokine release that attacked the bladder causing damage.

So it's not the drug per se causing damage. I found the paper after another user in the neuroscience subforum (I believe he was a physician or scientist) discussed this mechanism then I went digging around on Google scholar and found the paper.

If this is infact true then dxm would also cause problems
Thanks for looking it up, I’ll be careful then
 

LucidSDreamr

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Just btw, to anyone new to ketamine - this sort if damage is from pretty extreme abuse. I used to abuse >5g a session every couple months, and now use ~1-2g once a month for half a decade with no issue to speak of.

Its like the difference between someone who drinks a six pack vs someone who drinks a liter of vodka, and its effects on the liver.
identical bladder damage (interstitial cystitis) happens to people that have never touched any drug in their lives.

Genetic predisposition may allow some to withstand more damage. I know ppl that went way harder than I did and didn't get bladder damage and my use was not ultra heavy. Daily binge runs at times but with long breaks. Not chronic daily use.

One Japanese paper documents bladder damage at 0.5 g per day after only 6 months of use in one test subject. I think it may be one of the papers I linked in the OP.
 

telepathetic

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Almost identical bladder damage (interstitial cystitis) happens to people that have never touched any drug in their lives.

Genetic predisposition may allow some to withstand more damage. I know ppl that went way harder than I did and didn't get bladder damage and my use was not ultra heavy. Daily binge runs at times but with long breaks. Not chronic daily use.

One Japanese paper documents bladder damage at 0.5 g per day after only 6 months of use in one test subject. I think it may be one of the papers I linked in the OP.
yeah daily use is obviously a terrible idea. but once a month? i doubt it
 

LucidSDreamr

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yeah daily use is obviously a terrible idea. but once a month? i doubt it
As I said ppl that have never used any drug in their lives develop bladder cystitis.

Ppl that try mdma once can get long term comedown.

Chances are you'll be fine at 1x per month but dissocistives are quite addictive (at least for me) so good luck with that.

To me it would be like having a heroin bag I only used once a month. Simply not possible. Dissociatives were actually more psychologically addictive to me than any drug I've done. It was a religion in terms of what I believed they were doing for me (and actually were making me superman despite causing the damage).

Though once the bag ran out it was easier to not get more since there is no withdrawal at the level I used. I knew a guy that used so much he would get strange withdrawals though..but nothing as severe as opioid WD.
 
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telepathetic

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As I said ppl that have never used any drug in their lives develop bladder cystitis.

Ppl that try mdma once can get long term comedown.

Chances are you'll be fine at 1x per month but dissocistives are quite addictive (at least for me) so good luck with that.

To me it would be like having a heroin bag I only used once a month. Simply not possible. Dissociatives were actually more psychologically addictive to me than any drug I've done. It was a religion in terms of what I believed they were doing for me (and actually were making me superman despite causing the damage).
interesting. i've been using ketamine monthly for over 10 years without ever having a serious issue with it.

its addictive to me in the sense i am going to finish the stash i have, but not seek it out too often.
 

LucidSDreamr

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interesting. i've been using ketamine monthly for over 10 years without ever having a serious issue with it.

its addictive to me in the sense i am going to finish the stash i have, but not seek it out too often.
I know a guy that used daily for over 15 years all kinds of dissos and didn't get bladder damage. Some ppl are just built for it and others aren't. Just listen to your body's warnings if they happen.

This guy eventually died from a cocaine OD though but.still was using dissos with no bladder problems.
 
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Bare_head

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Never tried dxm but i can most certainly say that i agree with this notion. Everything in moderation is the key and that everyone is affected differently. Hell my aunty died from sepsis through drink. She was no where near as much of a hardcore drinker like i have witnessed but it affected her more than others.

Ketamine is a fun drug. But with all drugs come risk. The bladder issues came after 6 months of heavy use and subsided as i stopped using.

Have not sourced it since but it is probably for the best
 

Working_Class

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I've commented on this issue throughout the years.....and it's no joke. I am thankful to still have my bladder, and that I don't have any issues anymore.

In my early 20s, I had access to a limitless supply of ketamine. I started out using it with tiny bumps because I was honestly scared to go into a hole, for whatever reason I have no clue lol. Then I accidentally fell into one, and it was amazzzzziiiinnngggggg. Anyway, I was getting it from India for $4/g, flipping it from $30-$120/g.....so I was making fuck tons of money and everything was free. I started sniffing bigger lines, and the tolerance raises quickly. After a while I was sniffing 2g at a time and barely feeling it. Obviously I was using a lot at that time and my nose was not happy. I was at a festival and remember the first time seeing my septal perforation.....a tiny pinhole through my septum. I still continued to sniff it for a while, before switching to IMing it.

IMing was great at first because it was like I didn't have a tolerance anymore.......and then it built up after so long. I was eventually using 100, yes one hunded, gram every week. 2 grams at once split by 5 needles at once, injecting to my hips, thigh, ass, arms, wherever. Not only did I have a horribly swollen, bruised body, and a hole in my nose, but then started the urinary issuse......and the excrutiating k pains in the sternum. This started long before I got up to those insane amounts though.

I would literally piss out ketamine, like a discharge.....it was horrible. I would piss blood clots. I had to piss, or at least felt like I needed to every two seconds. And when I did, it was usually only a couple extremely painful drops. Eventually I couldn't go anywhere because I had the feeling to piss all the time. I missed some serious music gigs that I was booked for because of it.

That was finally the time that I had to clean myself up. It took maybe two months on my couch. I would have buckets next to me because it was futile to go upstairs to use the bathroom.

Anyway.....long story made short.....I got clean 8 years ago and I have no ill effects, surprisingly and thankfully <3 I use ketamine maybe once a year now, because it is still so amazing, but when I have it....I still go hard. BUT, I can't do it for long because my body reminds me REAL quick with having pain trying to piss after a couple grams.

I want to be involved in some study somehow, because I'm sure I've done more K than thousands of people should in a lifetime 0_o

Be kind to your body with this, and DCK, MXE, 3-MeO-PCP, and the like. They will do the same thing.

Sending lots of love <3 :)
You are a fucking tank my friend. Props to your body for weathering that storm.

I blasted through just about an 8-ball in the last three weeks or so and I don't think I'm grabbing any more. I was just about to grab an ounce, half of the s isomer, half of the mixed isomer. But I'm pretty sure it would be a poor choice, unless I could keep it out of my own reach because I would be in the stuff probably pretty regularly. That's what happens when you have an unlimited supply of drugs at your disposal and you can function fairly well on them, it gets far too convenient.

I'm glad to have stumbled across this thread, because it is making me rethink my ketamine use and my potential purchase of a fucking huge amount. I should just stick to my psychedelics and buy some ketamine when I plan on using it instead of having a stockpile of 28 grams at home.

Kind of all circles back to "know yourself" and plan accordingly. Know the risks and understand what can happen if you get a little bit hedonistic with any of your drugs of choice.

Thanks for keeping it real fam. I've missed this community.
 

Bare_head

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Yeah ketamine tolerance does seem to develop fairly quickly. I never injected it but can understand why some people do especially when snorting becomes "ineffective"

I am a compulsive person. Ketamine presses these strange buttons in my brain that seems to make me want to keep going back. But bladder issues is no joke and i do understand that everything needs to be in moderation
 

plumbus-nine

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Anybody having experienced auditory hallucinations? Not exactly hearing voices, I had that once involving an involuntary RC stim overdose, so I can discriminate - it's like a second stream of thought, like an entity which lives in but independent from your mind, and sometimes answers, sometimes comments, depending on mindset - I'll let it with the label of an 'echo' for now, as I've challenged it multiple times and it couldn't provide me any information or emotion which wasn't previously acquired by myself. Still, having a thought telling me "I wanna take over your body", "I found your light on this day", "You'll be facing horrific judgement when you die" etc... isn't exactly what I intended by, granted, excessively over-doing dissociative research chemicals. Most of them was O-PCM but also some others, a share of DXM and MXE in the years before, some K (which was the absolutely worst in terms of physical damage, not counting some really really fucked up adulterated O-PCM I've ordered off the Dark Onion whose name we don't mention) etc.

Point is, these hallucinations were and are the symptom which is most easy and obvious to spot. Cognitive damage is hard to find, I didn't do any real testing and don't have any pre-dissoz values to compare with, also I have few real friends so I can't tell about behavioural changes. On some days I think I'm damaged but I thought the same before. On others, that it's entirely my mind. Sometimes that it's reversible, sometimes that the shizo link is correct (recently some asshole diagnosed me out off the blue with shizo, but afterwards the diagnosis got officially dismissed and that as an inpatient, so not much to hide) and sometimes that the entire science stuff might be too far fetched from rodents to humans.

Point is, they last way longer than other disso features, but also science found some parts of the brain being under-active even the days after a dissociative. Other found a glutamatergic, excitotoxic rebound. I'm having much time w/o any issues, and neither morph, nor O-PCM or 1cP-LSD don't reliably trigger anything, even DXM doesn't - with the exception of NMDA antagonist PLUS mu opioid agonist. Then I'll rush into positive and negative schizophrenia symptoms. Which is absolutely weird and I've never ever read or heard from but there's good chance that I'm one of the first experiencing this - it required longer term parallel use of O-PCM and bupe/morphine, morph is more psychotomimetic than methadone, while DXM on bupe acutely triggered an overwhelmingly dysphoric hell of voices. There is some background noise which I'd diagnose as HPPD like stuff but it's minor, yet more present when on opioids(!) which are generally considered to be antipsychotic. I didn't and won't talk to docs openly about that 'feature' unless I'd get a recommendation of a highly skilled and specific individual. I've been hooked on morphine for longer / on maintenance therapy, so never really long-term w/o any chems and currently withdrawing so I can't really state anything else yet other than morphine+DXM is bad for some. As it's used to augment in pain therapy this' weird either.

I know I was, and partially still am, reckless and that some including a specific Flower out here wish me into psych ward, but all the people I've talked to about voices were pretty much crazier in a different way than I am (e.g. literal chip-in-brain belief) and I yet only talked to one person about long-term disso issue, she uses DXM + morphine in astronomic doses (1g + 1.2g etc) w/o getting this specific issue. Also DXM seems NOT to cause bladder issues, which isn't too far fetched given that it's said to be the arylcyclohexylamine structure specifically which I would second as I indeed got some bladder irritation and issues, which at the end of my usage period were quite heavy but BY FAR not as heavy as I've seen here on BL. It was concerning but I recovered mostly, now having capacity of more than 1L again when before it was below 500mL.

Weird that these issues only show up recently. My current hunch is that ACHs are bad for your bladder/maybe other organs but that illicit ACHs sometimes are much much worse than purely tested or pharm grade ones. There are even probably some very very toxic synth by-products of which repeated use of just trace amounts is toxic, but that's another guess as I didn't test my stuff, unfortunately. I do somewhat believe one specific vendor tho, and he tested some of it to be pretty pure. Nearly died off this shit, couldn't walk straight etc. for longer but also recovered... weirdly this didn't concern me as much as the bladder by far even when it should have. I'd pay to know what the hell there was going on, somehow thought of it as a peripherally-only anticholinergic which stays in your body for ages but that might be entirely wrong.

Please don't tell me to stop, to search for help, etc. I know that and I've been off dissos for a solid year now. I'm just interested in other reports, and I'm intending to share the results..

Ketamine presses these strange buttons in my brain that seems to make me want to keep going back.
For sure. Even DXM does that, and even when the last trip(s) were bad.
 
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fastandbulbous

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EDIT: The first thing I want to add to this thread is that if you have any odd sensation whatsoever in your bladder, difficulty with strong stream, or pressure. STOP YOU ARE LIKELY DOING PERMANENT DAMAGE

2nd: If you are having pain, the most important thing to halt it is to switch to this diet linked below. You will only get worse if you keep eating caustic foods and already have an issue.


For those "wondering" if its just ketamine or other dissociatives, here is a paper documenting the same effects from MXE (in rats)


Damage to the ureter and kideny:


"51% of patients with ketamine-induced urinary symptoms had unilateral or bilateral hydronephrosis "
"hydronephrosis was accompanied by varying degrees of ureteral lesions, ureteral wall thickening, ureteral stenosis, or vesicoureteric reflux."
"one patient who continued to abuse ketamine ended up with gross bilateral hydronephrosis and acute renal failure "


Ketamine damages the billary tract:


Chronic biliary colic associated with ketamine abuse - NCBI


Clinical use of Ketamine for chronic pain results in liver injury:



Possible link between ketamine and bladder cancer (rodent study)


" In the present study, bladders of ketamine-treated mice exhibited squamous cell metaplasia following 12 weeks of treatment, leading to the hypothesis that long-term ketamine abuse may eventually contribute to the development of bladder cancer; however, whether ketamine abuse would eventually result in the development of bladder cancer is unknown and long-term follow-up studies are required. "

BL user thread chronicling bladder damage from K: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/why-you-shouldnt-abuse-ketamine-nsfw-photos.895520/



I am aware of one former member who was killed from organ damage bile duct cancer which we all seem to agree is likely due to his super heavy disso use. sporadic dissociative use over the past 3 years or so did more damage to my body than 5 years of slamming heroin 2-5 times per day and smoking crack daily when i was younger.
The study with rats only induced bladder damage with mxe by giving them, quite frankly, fuck off sized doses, for three months. The equivalent dosing in humans would produce a constant state of unconsciousness. As such, I honestly feel that mxe achieved one of my goals in creating it ie. bladder friendly, as there were no reported cases of bladder damage in humans, all the time it was easily available (and we know how many people hammered it then!)
 

Xorkoth

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I think there have ben some cases of bladder issues with MXE since then but nothing like ketamine. Also a lot of people started with tons of K and have done many dissos and the damage is cumulative over a lifetime.

By the way MXE remains among my very favorite drugs and my favorite dissociative by a longshot. Really special stuff. I hate that it is gone. DMXE is the closest thing I've found, it has a lot of the same characteristics. I have 1 dose of MXE left, had 2 for a while, I thought maybe nostalgia was giving me rose colored glasses but the last dose I took had everything I remembered.
 

LucidSDreamr

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The study with rats only induced bladder damage with mxe by giving them, quite frankly, fuck off sized doses, for three months. The equivalent dosing in humans would produce a constant state of unconsciousness. As such, I honestly feel that mxe achieved one of my goals in creating it ie. bladder friendly, as there were no reported cases of bladder damage in humans, all the time it was easily available (and we know how many people hammered it then!)
The mechanism of bladder cystitis has been hypothesized to the result of down stream cascade resulting from NMDA antagonism....not the drug itself damaging the bladder. Basically am immune response is induced with cytokine storm like response that attacks the bladder. Anything that it's antagonizing nmda would in theory do this.

Non drug induced bladder cystitis also is believed to by autoimmune related.

My use during my disso career was probably about 90 percent MXE and 10 percemt other dissociatives and my bladder got quite fucked.

Mxe was my favorite drug of all time but I had to stop lying to myself at a certain point based off of ppl on BL saying it's a bladder friendly form of ketamine (with zero scientific basis for saying that), I looked at the biochemical mechanism of this disease, I realized my own bladder was fucked from mainly mxe use...and I came to my senses...or pain brought me to stop rationalizing my drug of choice was safe.

I still do it with other drugs though.

Because it's what us drug addicts do.
 
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plumbus-nine

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The mechanism of bladder cystitis has been hypothesized to the result of down stream cascade resulting from NMDA antagonism....not the drug itself damaging the bladder. Basically am immune response is induced with cytokine storm like response that attacks the bladder.
Do you have a source for this? Afaik another theory is that it's the arylcyclohexylamine structure being the culprit and independent of NMDA antagonism, for which would speak that e.g. DXM doesn't induce cystitis (but indeed even memantine has it listed as a possible side effect - I didn't notice any irritation with it tho and in astronomical dosages - 120mg acutely and 40mg/d for many months). My experience at least was that the amount of irritation is directly correlating to the total amount of arylcyclohexylamine and negatively to the amount of hydration during the experience. A K binge is much much worse than a MXE binge. But it might of course be that there are multiple mechanisms involved, as it's weird if you ask me that it's a pretty recent phenomenon and in the past decades most K was diverted from legitimate pharm/vet pharm supplies while nowadays it's illicitly synthed with a pretty huge content of impurities (dark net K is called pure when it's more than like 80% pure and some of the impurities are nasty. Ever got the K cramps? Only happens with certain batches of illicit K.).. so maybe NMDA antagonism is mildly irritating. Arylcyclohexylamine structure too. Add in some toxic impurities and the hell's freezing over.
 

LucidSDreamr

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Do you have a source for this? Afaik another theory is that it's the arylcyclohexylamine structure being the culprit and independent of NMDA antagonism, for which would speak that e.g. DXM doesn't induce cystitis (but indeed even memantine has it listed as a possible side effect - I didn't notice any irritation with it tho and in astronomical dosages - 120mg acutely and 40mg/d for many months). My experience at least was that the amount of irritation is directly correlating to the total amount of arylcyclohexylamine and negatively to the amount of hydration during the experience. A K binge is much much worse than a MXE binge. But it might of course be that there are multiple mechanisms involved, as it's weird if you ask me that it's a pretty recent phenomenon and in the past decades most K was diverted from legitimate pharm/vet pharm supplies while nowadays it's illicitly synthed with a pretty huge content of impurities (dark net K is called pure when it's more than like 80% pure and some of the impurities are nasty. Ever got the K cramps? Only happens with certain batches of illicit K.).. so maybe NMDA antagonism is mildly irritating. Arylcyclohexylamine structure too. Add in some toxic impurities and the hell's freezing over.
If it's not in the papers on my OP I'll have to find it again but I swear on my mother's life I've read the paper.

I first heard of this mechanism of bladder damage in the neuroscience amd pharm subforum from another BLer...years before I started this particular thread amd I went I did my research and found the paper in Google scholar.

I'm pretty busy amd just posting on BL while I ram food into my mouth between working but I'll try to find the paper soon. Wouldn't mind if someone else searched for it though.

In the neuro and pharm thread we were even discussing if nitrous would in theory cause bladder damage if used enough and the guy (he knew his shit...sounded like a scientist or doctor) said yes based on that theory of immunogenic bladder cystitis precipitated by nmda antagonism


Edit: this isn't the same paper I originally read but it's highlighting immune responses in K users amd associating them with bladder cystitis


Go and read the papers on naturally occurring interstitial cystitis (no K involved) and there is plenty of science showing the immune system is attacking the bladder.

We know of reports of dck in particular causing wild immune reactions I've read of on BL.

Im not saying what I've presented in this post is proof. This is going to require a deep dive looking at the specific immunological proteins in KC (ketamine cystitis) vs IC (natural bladder cystitis). Also trying to find the other paper I'm looking for which was making a much more definitive link.

There's also the question of whether the immunological protein level increases seen in K users are the cause of bladder damage or just a separate side effect...the paper I read was making the connection that it's the proteins from the immune response doing the damage (like in non-K IC) and not just K or a metabolite itself.

Anecdotally I'll say that I found K to be the easiest on the bladder. In terms of irritation of the dissos I did I would rank them from most to least as: dck, 3meopcp, mxe, K.

I think this is a matter of drug potency and pharmacology and not drug mass...which goes against the MXE is safer becsuse you do less of it theory...
It's like saying fentanyl is safer because you do less mass of it than heroin
 
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