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☠ WARNING ☠ *WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage

Yawning Angel

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Ketamine-Induced Neurotoxicity
At the EM level, DNA degradation and chromosome condensation were observed in layers II and III of the frontal cortex of PND-7 rats after 6 ketamine (20 mg/kg) injections, providing direct evidence of neuronal cell death (Fig. 1B1B). DNA degradation and chromosome condensation indicate advanced states of apoptosis. T

Repeated ketamine injections (20 mg/kg × 6) caused a more than 10-fold increase in neuronal damage in the frontal cortex and around a 3-fold increase in the striatum, hippocampus, thalamus, and amygdala

These data suggest that the frontal cortex is the region most vulnerable to ketamine-induced neurotoxicity during the development


To date, data from both rodents and nonhuman primates have demonstrated the neurotoxic effects of ketamine on the developing brain [2, 4, 6, 7]. These findings have raised concerns regarding the safe administration of ketamine in the obstetric and pediatric setting. Further experiments are needed to determine the clinical significance of the animal observations, particularly in light of the fact that the animal studies showing ketamine-induced toxicity have been carried out in intact animals, not in animals undergoing surgical or other traumatic procedures.

Consistent with the previous data of Ikonomidou et al. [2], the present study demonstrated that lower doses and shorter exposure durations of ketamine treatment did not result in neurotoxicity in the developing rat brain. The cell death induced by ketamine was dose and exposure duration dependent. Ketamine levels in plasma and brain were highest soon after the last exposure, decreased rapidly thereafter, and were undetectable within 6 h [14]. An interesting observation is that the time course of plasma and brain ketamine levels do not parallel that for neuronal cell death: when plasma and brain ketamine had decreased to near zero, neuronal cell death was increasing significantly [14]. Meanwhile, increases in NMDA receptor NR1 subunit mRNA levels, as demonstrated using in situ hybridization techniques, appeared to be highest in the frontal cortical areas where the most severe neurodegeneration was observed. One explanation for these observations is that the enhanced cell death caused by ketamine is closely associated in time with altered NMDA receptor expression and not in situ plasma or brain tissue ketamine levels.

Several lines of evidence indicate that activation of NMDA receptors causes apoptosis and necrosis [4, 5, 16-20]. In nonhuman primates, ketamine-induced neuronal death is characterized by both apoptosis and necrosis

Moreover, we showed in our previous studies that ketamine-induced neurodegeneration was blocked by NR1 antisense oligonucleotides in cultured rat and monkey neurons [6, 7] providing additional evidence supporting this hypothesis.

 

Bitstorm

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32
- - — For a simple document re bladder, from dancesafe.org (longest running harm reduction team) designed for younger users or for easy accessibility... see/share this — - -
 

tazz20

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May 5, 2020
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I'm just wondering, is it normal to have to pee more frequently while using it? I recently got into ketamine and knew that long term use could mess up your bladder. I've been using it for a few weeks now and feel like I've been taking a few bumps every few days which I realize is too much. I recently got a hold on myself and got myself to stop using it all the time. I have not experienced any bladder pain or any odd urination patterns when not using it. Should I be ok? Is the more common urgency to pee while high on it normal? In general I also seem to have a sensitive bladder when I drink alcohol and I'll pee several times in one night.
 

Bitstorm

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Someone I know has developed cystisis (awaiting medical confirmation) even while taking EGCG and oral hyaluronic acid, quite solidly. 6 months use with EGCG the whole time so they say.
Small sample size, but it is what it is.
EDIT: May just be a UTI/Bacerial thing. Will update when it becomes clear.

Has anyone here tried a hyaluronic acid instillation? I'll try to get them some help for the pain.
Also looking into Phenazopyridine Hydrochloride and calcium glycerophosphate (drugs.com/drp/prelief-tablets-and-granulate.html)

Has anyone tried omeprazole?

"The patient was further managed with oral and intravenous hydration, a multivitamin supplement, and omeprazole. The acute kidney injury and the liver function abnormalities improved gradually (Table 1). He gained 3 kg body weight within a week of inpatient medical treatment.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4059572/"


@tazz20 Sounds similar to this person I know. I would advise caution. The doses are small, until they're not. Even then small daily use for someone susceptible could be too much risk.
This is a great starting point: dancesafe.org/ketamine-bladder-damage-what-you-need-to-know/
Also https://ketaminecystitis.org/
 
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GearoftheYear

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I wouldn't take ketamine without omeprazole. It really helps balance the gut and as I tend to eat more when on ketamine it helps with that too. 20mg in some cases 40mg daily when really going hard. Also probiotic yoghurt drinks are something to drink regularly throughout the session.

If developing ulcer style symptoms change to lansoprazole and cease use immediately or you'll be off your feet a few weeks. Strong indica weed also helps but I find is best for when coming down off the ketamine and taking a break due to how strong weed can feel when on lots of ketamine. E.g. after a 2 week binge stop taking ketamine, keep on omeprazole and smoke heavily if any k cramps occur. I tend to go flat out on the ketamine and not sleep for a few days, then when I want sleep or have stuff to do the next day I dose some RSO coconut oil in green tea and this helps too but wont prevent the k cramps, just makes you more functional and allows the body to rest and work itself out.

Ketamine in binge amounts will completely disrupt your digestive system, you can become very bloated and constipated similar to certain IBS symptoms and this will continue even after stopping for a while.

Cystisis/UTI symptoms when using ketamine tend to be due to not drinking enough water and green tea. If in contact with the person I recommend them to stop ketamine use entirely, work on diet but also drink lots of green tea - a few cups a day. The symptoms should clear up in a few weeks as long as they stay off the ket and other drugs. Ketamine definitely induces UTI symptoms when using regularly but I've never found it to stick around as long as you stop using and focus on health and green tea. If it is cystisis the green tea will do no harm either.

I've been keeping track more recently and notice that 3.5-7g over a few days shouldn't be too bad. But if you're using 7g a day for a week or more I tend to get the k cramps, seems to be the way it disrupts digestive system and the build up of ketamine in the system.
 

Economy

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Nov 7, 2020
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I did like 1.2g over 5-6 days last week (small bumps/lines from moment I woke up till passing out daily) and I feel like shittttttt, cramps and organ pain every day and I' worried it's getting worse with time not better, definitely peeing more often/smaller amounts for the last few days, but no blood luckily... first binge ever (couple prior uses lasting 1-2 days over the last year), super worried I fucked myself up permanently & almost went to the hospital last night after discomfort got really intense but feel mostly better now after showering and taking a walk. I think I had a small flashback last night because my eyes had suddenly dilated and I felt very, very weird although I've just smoked weed the last 3 days. Now I'm afraid to ever do it again, but of course I really want to finish off my bag. If I just go ahead and get the robot bladder can I do as much k as I want?
 
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Chris Timothy

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That's a lot of complaints for 1g. If you minded hydration at all, you're apparently one of the outliers easily harmed by this class of substances. One gets the dead bladder by drawing the line at bladder pain. Tolerating pain of multiple organs will get you multiple dead organs..
 

jhjhsdi

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That's a lot of complaints for 1g. If you minded hydration at all, you're apparently one of the outliers easily harmed by this class of substances. One gets the dead bladder by drawing the line at bladder pain. Tolerating pain of multiple organs will get you multiple dead organs..
I thought that. Ive never heard of someone getting so many problems from 1.2g
Never heard of anyone making 1.2g last so long either

@Economy id wager a bet that unfortunately you are just not genetically designed to handle K. If your tolerance is naturally low enough for 1200mg to last a 6 day all day long binge and also give you that much pain, id just stay away, maybe you are allergic - it is possible.
Do you sneeze alot when you sniff it, really runny nose?
 

Economy

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I'm not sure how much I did honestly, I know I had two bags from two different ppl and I paid 80$ for one and 100$ for the other, I live in Brooklyn and have no prior relationship with plugs so I assumed I only got about a gram in each bag since 80$-100$/g seems like the high end of prices according to a reddit thread I found, and NYC tends to get the high end on prices for everything. One was tons of little crystals like sugar and one was huge crystals I had to break up, I mixed the two a bit but mostly did the small crystal/shard/sugar looking stuff last week.

I started Halloween night, the first 3 days were great, then US Election night (day 4 I think) I randomly threw up but attributed it to eating nothing but candy for 4 days and I was possibly having a panic attack. I kept going until last Friday, about 7 days in total, mostly because at some point I realised I felt like shit whenever I wasnt on K, by day 7 I only felt "normal" when I was on K, that was also when I started to feel some discomfort, not exactly pain but I could tell something wasnt right, and my tolerance was getting bad. I did not start spitting the drip until the very last day I was on it, and I was pretty bad about hydration during those 7 days, I smoked almost an Oz of sour diesel across like 20-25 spliffs and smoked tons of cigarettes, I drank a few glasses of water a day but not a lot and pretty much only ate chocolate, candy, microwave food and fast food the whole time. I could tell something was wrong once I came down that night, lots of discomfort in my lower stomach, I wouldnt use the word pain it didnt really hurt but anyway, I took a couple days off but pretty soon convinced myself I didnt feel *that* bad and doing a bit more damage was worth another good night so I did more last Sunday night, that night I had to pee like 3x every hour and definitely had a very noticable *feeling* in my bladder but wasnt pain. After I came down the stomach cramps came back and I had to pee like every hourish for a couple days, Sunday night was the last time I took any but by Wednesday night the cramps had got really really bad, the pain seemed to peak then, actually the only time I would said I had actual pain and not just discomfort, and it was mostly concentrated in my lower stomach just under my belly button. I drank some green tea and it seemed to help a ton. By Thursday pain had mostly gone away and discomfort had weakened and moved further down my stomach under my waistline.

Now I still have a bit of discomfort but I do feel a lot better than i did Wednesday and it's really just a sort of warm feeling/very minor cramp feeling, and I have been using the restroom a more normal amount only a few times a day, although still get the feeling like I didnt get it all out, hoping that it will go away completely with time...

I don't know what the f Is wrong with me, I was doing small lines like 1/3 the width of a pencil and less than one inch long, maybe 6-8 lines like that a day... The first time I did K I did most of one of these 80$ bags over like 3 days and felt fine, I only did a little more than that over 7 days because I was purposely avoiding the hole this time, I've done K like 4 times over the last 10 months that's all I've done my whole life, I've spent about 250$ in total and still have probably a bit more than a gram left.

Edit: I used to take a ton of RCs age 14-18, I took like 25 hits of DOC washing out a vial when I was 16, 4-AcO-DMT a few times, tons of 2C-E, some NBOMbs, a bunch of Bk-MDMA, Mcat a few times, a lot of different stuff, plus mushrooms, mdma/mda, meth twice.. lots of cough syrup, and tons of alcohol, weed, cigs, and hydrocodone, xanax, adderall, muscle relaxers, vyvanse, kpin, nitrous...

Idk maybe my insides were already just waiting for something to push em over the edge, but I'm 23 now and I have basically only smoked weed for the last 5-6 years before getting this K earlier this year...

I've never felt anything like this before as far as pain/discomfort inside my body but definitely do remember having this "didnt get it all out" feeling for a while as a teen, it persisted for months maybe over a year and I think the DOC brought it on but I could be wrong.

(Other edits attempting more clarity)

P.S. I really want to do more and *most* of what I was experiencing has gone now, only a bit of discomfort left, though took damn near a week to feel normal-ish again... how bad of an idea is that?
 
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PYTH

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Aug 23, 2019
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@Economy I mean, not that great an idea, but it hasn't stopped me before. If I had to guess I'd say the bad diet, low hydration, and daily use just added up and stressed out your body, maybe compounded by past multi-drug abuse. Visualize this corrosive chemical hanging out and running through your kidneys, bile ducts, bladder, etc. for a week without a breather I guess. K is some caustic stuff.

Stomach cramps are normal if you don't religiously spit out the drip, please don't swallow K. It's orally active and some people prefer it that way but it's terrible for your upper GI tract, and there's speculation that a stomach pass results in a higher percentage of a possibly more harmful metabolite being formed. The GI damage isn't talked about as much as bladder / kidney issues but it's serious stuff.

I know the drill, it's hard to move on without doing it all and getting it out of the house, but I'd give it a few days at least.

I'd throw up on K all the time, usually halfway through a binge.
 
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Chris Timothy

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^ Great post and very true, particularly:
Yet again, an example of the deceptive nature of arylcyclohexylamines.

It took me a long time to accept that ketamine was doing me any real harm, for sure.

People do report benefits of course... I'll say honestly, I am actually always skeptical even of these and wonder if there are some elements of self delusion going on. I believe that ketamine can have therapeutic value - done properly - but I have strong doubts it's possible to self-medicate therapeutically, for the vast majority of people. Even with medical supervision of course, since ketamine's approval for medical use there seem to be a huge number of very very shady "ketamine clinics" that seen to just operate on a "one or 2 megadoses and done", policy, whereas the actual approval in the states (AFAIK) is for almost sub-perceptual microdoses administered at regular intervals for a set period of time.

Of course, ketamine is a pseudo-psychedelic and any powerful psychedelic experience has the potential to promote long term positive changes, but not reliably, and especially not without follow up care from trained psychiatric professionals, preferably those with some specialisation in psychedelic medicine. And of course, again... ketamine is addictive, unlike the traditional psychedelics, and as such even a single life-altering experience is liable to have it's benefits quickly undone by chasing that unique dissociated magic. Again, obviously this is especially true for those who are self-medicating, even those who initially DID benefit from it. If one experience did good, why not several? But, with this drug less is often more.


I know where you're coming from, @Vastness. You make a very valid point (though it's perhaps a bit ironic to suggest psychiatry instead of something unreliable, heh). But still there's something funny about calling dissociatives "pseudo-psychedelics". There's the underlying assumption there that the application is comparable. After all, a potato might be a pseudo-carrot, but if it's called a pseudo-hammer our presuppositions are off, you see?

Let's indeed explicitly acknowledge dissociatives are too harmful to be used as psychedelics. Let's at the same time not use demonization to abdicate responsibility. I've always been against such approach, not out of some warped sense of loyalty, but because it has always struck me that it's exactly an analysis that refuses to integrate the benefit component that sets up the pathological split situation of aversive rational stance versus approaching intuitive feeling. In the same way people with a sugar addiction do themselves a disservice by holding on to a limited model of how sugar works. The best behaviour towards nutrition is to be expected if one doesn't have the creeping feeling one's rational discourse about it is lacking.

And here's the trouble: why would a pseudo-psychedelic give moments or periods of greater clarity than a psychedelic? Well, let's look at the neurological mechanisms, and the subjective observations. Psychedelics add noise to the senses. Dissociatives shut off the senses. Granted, sustained shutting off of the senses in this fashion ruins one's health, and the added noise tends to propel one into previously inaccessible spaces. But if we, after declaring psychedelics good and dissociatives bad, still have the desire to return, and see the deceit in ceasing analysis, just calling it addiction/deception, and putting on the skeptical hat for the reported perks and be done with it right there, then there's the pithy explanation.

So let's logically continue that train of thought. Rather than adding noise, rather than shutting off senses through psychedelic DDOS, we'd rather simply shut off the senses. Doing this chemically is a great introduction to the principle. But for long-term, sustained practice it's necessary to do this physically. John C. Lilly devised a method for this.

Therefore I invite you to turn your conclusion upside down. Psychedelics are pseudo-dissociatives. And dissociatives are pseudo-flotation-tanks.
 

LucidSDreamr

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I'm not sure how much I did honestly, I know I had two bags from two different ppl and I paid 80$ for one and 100$ for the other, I live in Brooklyn and have no prior relationship with plugs so I assumed I only got about a gram in each bag since 80$-100$/g seems like the high end of prices according to a reddit thread I found, and NYC tends to get the high end on prices for everything. One was tons of little crystals like sugar and one was huge crystals I had to break up, I mixed the two a bit but mostly did the small crystal/shard/sugar looking stuff last week.

I started Halloween night, the first 3 days were great, then US Election night (day 4 I think) I randomly threw up but attributed it to eating nothing but candy for 4 days and I was possibly having a panic attack. I kept going until last Friday, about 7 days in total, mostly because at some point I realised I felt like shit whenever I wasnt on K, by day 7 I only felt "normal" when I was on K, that was also when I started to feel some discomfort, not exactly pain but I could tell something wasnt right, and my tolerance was getting bad. I did not start spitting the drip until the very last day I was on it, and I was pretty bad about hydration during those 7 days, I smoked almost an Oz of sour diesel across like 20-25 spliffs and smoked tons of cigarettes, I drank a few glasses of water a day but not a lot and pretty much only ate chocolate, candy, microwave food and fast food the whole time. I could tell something was wrong once I came down that night, lots of discomfort in my lower stomach, I wouldnt use the word pain it didnt really hurt but anyway, I took a couple days off but pretty soon convinced myself I didnt feel *that* bad and doing a bit more damage was worth another good night so I did more last Sunday night, that night I had to pee like 3x every hour and definitely had a very noticable *feeling* in my bladder but wasnt pain. After I came down the stomach cramps came back and I had to pee like every hourish for a couple days, Sunday night was the last time I took any but by Wednesday night the cramps had got really really bad, the pain seemed to peak then, actually the only time I would said I had actual pain and not just discomfort, and it was mostly concentrated in my lower stomach just under my belly button. I drank some green tea and it seemed to help a ton. By Thursday pain had mostly gone away and discomfort had weakened and moved further down my stomach under my waistline.

Now I still have a bit of discomfort but I do feel a lot better than i did Wednesday and it's really just a sort of warm feeling/very minor cramp feeling, and I have been using the restroom a more normal amount only a few times a day, although still get the feeling like I didnt get it all out, hoping that it will go away completely with time...

I don't know what the f Is wrong with me, I was doing small lines like 1/3 the width of a pencil and less than one inch long, maybe 6-8 lines like that a day... The first time I did K I did most of one of these 80$ bags over like 3 days and felt fine, I only did a little more than that over 7 days because I was purposely avoiding the hole this time, I've done K like 4 times over the last 10 months that's all I've done my whole life, I've spent about 250$ in total and still have probably a bit more than a gram left.

Edit: I used to take a ton of RCs age 14-18, I took like 25 hits of DOC washing out a vial when I was 16, 4-AcO-DMT a few times, tons of 2C-E, some NBOMbs, a bunch of Bk-MDMA, Mcat a few times, a lot of different stuff, plus mushrooms, mdma/mda, meth twice.. lots of cough syrup, and tons of alcohol, weed, cigs, and hydrocodone, xanax, adderall, muscle relaxers, vyvanse, kpin, nitrous...

Idk maybe my insides were already just waiting for something to push em over the edge, but I'm 23 now and I have basically only smoked weed for the last 5-6 years before getting this K earlier this year...

I've never felt anything like this before as far as pain/discomfort inside my body but definitely do remember having this "didnt get it all out" feeling for a while as a teen, it persisted for months maybe over a year and I think the DOC brought it on but I could be wrong.

(Other edits attempting more clarity)

P.S. I really want to do more and *most* of what I was experiencing has gone now, only a bit of discomfort left, though took damn near a week to feel normal-ish again... how bad of an idea is that?
It's a horrible idea. Just because your pain left does not mean the damage is not there anymore and your bladder has reset itself to being brand new.

What you are describing is exactly how it went down with me (the OP). Binges and mild pain that would last for a few days then be gone.

Until one day the pain just never left. 3 years later and still experiencing severe pain and symptoms.

Fuck around and find out the hard way or listen to your body now.
 

jhjhsdi

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I found some disturbing pictures on my laptop of what I was pissing out before rehab. Not sure if I'm going to upload them here or in a seperate thread.
If I do them into a separate thread I'll link it here.
Not yet though. Just woke up for a piss and going back to sleep
 

Economy

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Joined
Nov 7, 2020
Messages
5
It's a horrible idea. Just because your pain left does not mean the damage is not there anymore and your bladder has reset itself to being brand new.

What you are describing is exactly how it went down with me (the OP). Binges and mild pain that would last for a few days then be gone.

Until one day the pain just never left. 3 years later and still experiencing severe pain and symptoms.

Fuck around and find out the hard way or listen to your body now.

I did finish off what I had a few weeks ago, pain is only noticeable for me when laying on my stomach, I cant really sleep on my stomach anymore and if i do manage to pass out like that I wake up with some real discomfort, it has been ongoing since I ran out which isnt great but I dont notice it so much outside of when I'm trying to sleep. For whatever reason as long as lie on my back I feel mostly normal.

Piss is sometimes totally clear, sometimes cloudy/darker color sitting at the bottom of the pot. Havent figured out if this is based on hydration/diet or just going back and forth for some other reason, but It feels like it has been cloudy less and less often as time goes on. I don't plan on buying anymore k.

I've also noticed a bit of increased discomfort when smoking lots of cigarettes or joints, I'm thinking this is because they dehydrate me which may cause shriveling/contraction but not sure. Green tea does feel like it helps, I need to remember to drink it more often.

I have noticed I have possibly been having some difficulty breaking out or thinking outside the box of the thought patterns I was having during my trip. Not really any general issue "going outside the box" in a problem-solving sense, but like, for example I've been applying for a specific type of job recently, something I was thinking about wanting to pursue during my binge, and I have been anxious about not being able to find work in time to pay my rent by the end of the month, i havent heard back on most of my applications so I that was further adding to my anxiety, then someone suggested "well if you really need work just apply at Target." and that hadn't even occurred to me to do for the past couple weeks, the fact that I could take a job outside this sector I'm interested in if the need arose, I couldnt see any other plan or way forward besides continuing to apply for more of this one type of job. It definitely feels somewhat like the binge left me with kinda mental tunnel vision on many of the subjects I was thinking about during the binge, but abstract problems I have no issue examining from different angles.
 
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jhjhsdi

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I finally posted those pics.
Prepare to be grossed out
I thought they were probably better suited to the dark side forum than as a thread in PD. Could seriously ruin someones trip lol

 
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