Toxic masculinity isn't real

[Snafu in the Void]

Ok, I realize this is an extremely controversial and sensitive subject so please hear me out before you crucify me.

I was listening to a podcast and this subject was brought up.

Toxic masculinity isn't really a thing.

If a man is being "toxically masculine" it has nothing to do with masculinity. That person is just a piece of shit. If you beat women, display dominance to the detriment to others or any other signs of "toxic masculinity" you are simply a fucking asshole. Period. It has nothing to do with hormones or being a man. Real men do not hit women (in 99% of cases).

There has never been the concept of toxic femininity. In my view, extreme femininity is generally seen as a good thing by everyone else (my own opinion is a little more complex). Everything is duality. You can't have toxic masculinity without toxic femininity. Females can be extremely toxic and abusive, too. Again, there is no such thing as toxic masculinity - that person is just a fucking asshole piece of shit!

And to be clear: NO I am not trying to condone or excuse men who are assholes or abusive. I am NOT trying to explain domestic abuse or anything of that nature. I am simply playing devil's advocate and being logical about things.

I DO believe in things like the patriarchy to an extent, I DO believe women in general are oppressed even in these modern times.

However I DO NOT believe masculinity itself should be called toxic. It has nothing to do with toxic behaivor.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

@ibtisam midlet

what is your definition of toxic masculinity?

Women also have plenty of testosterone. Can women be toxically masculine?

Although my point remains that testosterone does not cause anyone to be toxic, that is ultimately a psychological decision (regardless of how you process it).

Testosterone makes me want to do a lot of things that I end up not doing because I am not an asshole.

Ultimately if you decide to be toxically agressive or abusive it's YOU that made the decision to, not your testosterone levels.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

I guess my whole point is testosterone ultimately does not dictate or force any sort of behavior.

To blame a man's actions on his testosterone levels is a cop out.

 

[JessFR]

I think this whole hormone angle misses the point. Toxic masculinity has nothing to do with hormones and it has nothing to do with being "too manly".

Toxic masculinity is a label for culturally reenforced expectations of how men should behave that are harmful to society. Men included.


All the guys here who are terrified that normal expressions of sexuality make them gay? And that's bad because.... The idea of them being gay is intrinsically undesirable?

That's an example of toxic masculinity hurting males. It's guys having anxieties and fears that are totally pointless because they fear how they'll be seen if they aren't "male enough" according to some dumbass cultural ideas of how men should behave.

It's nothing to do with testosterone, it's just destructive gendered cultural standards. That's it.

Generally speaking though no I don't think almost any women exhibit toxic masculinity since the very idea is about conforming to destructive ideas of what it means to be a man. If you're not a man you aren't being pressured to conform to those ideas anyway.

The mistake people make is they think toxic masculinity is an attack on males. It's not. It's an attack on bad cultural norms about what it means to be a man. Norms that hurt men and women alike and are completely arbitrary.

 

[mtu mwendawazimu]

bad boys should have an permanent ink in their forehead say [made for sex]

I've had the idea that everyone's PCL-R scores (psychopath checklist) should hover over their heads.

Pay 10k and get your numbers scrubbed out.

 

[Mysterier]

I feel this espouses a quotient of semantics rather than pragmatism. Indeed, toxic masculinity is not gender-specific. Women can cohabitate in the concept of toxic masculinity.

Although it has long been a male-dominated world, so perhaps the harsher aspects of language, in a broader sense, have taken root in describing those prideful men, propped up by male hegemony, with a proclivity to snake logic willfully or habitually, and eschewing a flexible progression or co-existence and empathy in conjunction with their "superiority" and that nomenclature endures as a pejorative steadfastly.

The fact remains, there is a prevailing exaggeration of manliness that is troublesome, though I settle on the term "machismo."

 

[Mysterier]

Feminazis ate my homework!

 

[JessFR]

Ohai snafu! *waves* :D

 

[Snafu in the Void]

I'm glad this thread turned into a real discussion instead of devolving into a shit show. It's a very touchy subject. I almost didn't want to bring it up.

 

[FuckinAcidMan]

Testosterone is very much known to increase aggression and the desire to flex one's potential ability to hold dominance over territory, mates, or even abstract ideas.

However we are an incredibly advanced species with the potential to keep these desires to act on a raw primate level in check.

It's called being fucking self aware and having the ability to modulate the actions we take based on context.

It's what allows one to be into rough sex/dominance without just fucking raping random women because it seems like you might be able to get away with it.
.

Boiling humanity down to chemicals and formulas is laughable.

We are alive.

We have agency, we have the ability to choose.

Being a man is just as complex and nuanced of a personal path as any other aspect of anyone's identity.

When people settle on masculinity being about "machismo" or ones financial or sexual conquests it just seems ridiculous

To claim men "are just the angry ones who like to attack everything/own all of the shit/boss people around" is reductive as fuck

Humans aren't to be pigeonholed like gears for some industrial machine

The idea of toxic masculinity seems as much as a copout as the idea of fragile femininity

A semantic dance around the larger issue of inherently alienating and repressive cultural norms

It allows us to deny personal growth and expression in exchange for the ease of filling a pre set template

It's just easier to decide we are what we are told to be

Plenty of misogynistic and downright insane ideas have been purported by men through a male dominated lense for a very long time in western culture, there's no doubt about that.


Idk what my central point is, I'm fired up though lol.


Great topic btw, people usually avoid wanting to actually get into this sort of shit.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Ok, I realize this is an extremely controversial and sensitive subject so please hear me out before you crucify me.

I was listening to a podcast and this subject was brought up.

Toxic masculinity isn't really a thing.

If a man is being "toxically masculine" it has nothing to do with masculinity. That person is just a piece of shit. If you beat women, display dominance to the detriment to others or any other signs of "toxic masculinity" you are simply a fucking asshole. Period. It has nothing to do with hormones or being a man. Real men do not hit women (in 99% of cases).

There has never been the concept of toxic femininity. In my view, extreme femininity is generally seen as a good thing by everyone else (my own opinion is a little more complex). Everything is duality. You can't have toxic masculinity without toxic femininity. Females can be extremely toxic and abusive, too. Again, there is no such thing as toxic masculinity - that person is just a fucking asshole piece of shit!

And to be clear: NO I am not trying to condone or excuse men who are assholes or abusive. I am NOT trying to explain domestic abuse or anything of that nature. I am simply playing devil's advocate and being logical about things.

I DO believe in things like the patriarchy to an extent, I DO believe women in general are oppressed even in these modern times.

However I DO NOT believe masculinity itself should be called toxic. It has nothing to do with toxic behaivor.

Big problem with you believing that women are being oppressed even these days. Tells a lot.
However, that's not the point.
I can actually tell you what toxic femininity would be.
It would be over-nurturing a child, usually a male child, so much that they can't face the real world. The deal with the boy and usually the divorced mom is "You don't have to do anything, but you can't leave."
There's lots of psychological work done on this area. I'll DM you some stuff about the subject.
Toxic masculinity? Yeah, it would exist too.
But the way it's being used right now to further political goals is not something I believe in any way.
It's a straw-man.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Big problem with you believing that women are being oppressed even these days. Tells a lot.

Please elaborate.

If you think women aren't oppressed in many countries around the world today you're dead wrong, my friend. Sure, not so much in western countries but even then it still exists.

lol and your location is set to Saudi Arabia... juicy.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Please elaborate.

If you think women aren't oppressed in many countries around the world today you're dead wrong, my friend. Sure, not so much in western countries but even then it still exists.

lol and your location is set to Saudi Arabia... juicy.

You know about my location, man.
I already said that's not the point. Maybe in Islamic countries there might be some oppression taking place, but we westerners have lots of problems they don't have.
Broken families? Not a thing there.
Declining birth rates and culture? Not a thing there.
So sure, there might be something by westerners standards that would be called oppression, but the standards don't apply in other places.
Muslims see many things happening in our countries right now as absolutely unacceptable things which should lead to death.
It's all about priority and how society decides to organize itself.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

You know about my location, man.
I already said that's not the point. Maybe in Islamic countries there might be some oppression taking place, but we westerners have lots of problems they don't have.
Broken families? Not a thing there.
Declining birth rates and culture? Not a thing there.
So sure, there might be something by westerners standards that would be called oppression, but the standards don't apply in other places.
Muslims see many things happening in our countries right now as absolutely unacceptable things which should lead to death.
It's all about priority and how society decides to organize itself.

I'll be honest man it sounds like you're pulling those facts out of your ass. (prove me wrong?)

It's not just middle eastern cultures. India and other less developed areas of the world (including parts Eurasia) have a huge problem with woman oppression.

Places where gang rape is common and women have no recourse when it happens to them. One of many absolutely aweful things that happen to women.

It's more common than you think for women to be considered nothing more than homemakers.

I'm not trying to be a white knight here, I am pointing out the obvious.

And no, I am not one who believes women get paid less than men (at least in my country). Technically they do, but it's not due to oppression.

 

[JessFR]

There MIGHT be SOME oppression taking place?

 

[sewerslide.666mg]

shit its real, i wouldnt call myselfe masculinit, but i am a pice of shit. in the past, i slaped my girlfrend at the time ( unacceptable) a cople occations in the past never more than that, when i was drunk, i feel bad about it till this day, shes dead a few monts after we broke up, its haunted me for years, i even got a girlfrend who returned my karma by fucking me up in a dispute,
ive changed alot seance then, but i feel if there is a hell im going, but if i get in a relationship that wont happen again ive been tortured by years of guilt

 

[Snafu in the Void]

shit its real, i wouldnt call myselfe masculinit, but i am a pice of shit. in the past, i slaped my girlfrend at the time ( unacceptable) a cople occations in the past never more than that, when i was drunk, i feel bad about it till this day, shes dead a few monts after we broke up, its haunted me for years, i even got a girlfrend who returned my karma by fucking me up in a dispute,
ive changed alot seance then, but i feel if there is a hell im going, but if i get in a relationship that wont happen again ive been tortured by years of guilt

People make mistakes. A real man would admit them and change, like you.

I would guess alcohol instigates the majority of unnecessary domestic violence around the world.

 

[JessFR]

And no, I am not one who believes women get paid less than men (at least in my country). Technically they do, but it's not due to oppression.

No? Because it sure seems like a suspicious amount of the time even when women are doing exactly the same job, the pay decreases.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

14 year old girls being married to 40 year old men who beat them, then take them to court for being a bad wife where the poor girls get fucked up in court, too. Got raped? That's YOUR fault.

imagine that

 

[JessFR]

You know about my location, man.
I already said that's not the point. Maybe in Islamic countries there might be some oppression taking place, but we westerners have lots of problems they don't have.
Broken families? Not a thing there.

Probably a lot of that is directly because of the level of oppression.

Personally I'm extremely glad to live in the west. I'm very glad that people aren't forced by society to stay together when they hate each other.

Being honest, I have a suspicion that the reason you see no oppression is because well... It's people like you who are responsible for it.