Toxic masculinity isn't real

[Snafu in the Void]

No? Because it sure seems like a suspicious amount of the time even when women are doing exactly the same job, the pay decreases.

eternally debatable

from my perspective more than half of my bosses at jobs have been women

The explanation I've heard that makes sense (to me) is women generally make different career decisions.

I am VERY FAR from an expert on the matter and I'm not really qualified to talk about it other than stating my vaguely educated opinion.

I have not seen any concrete evidence on the argument in the US.

I think we can circle back towards toxic masculinity here. Men are more aggressive, certainly. I think this may play a role in career decisions and resulting pay.

 

[JessFR]

eternally debatable

from my perspective more than half of my bosses at jobs have been women

The explanation I've heard that makes sense (to me) is women generally make different career decisions.

Which is another problem....

See, careers sometimes change from being male dominated to female dominated and vice versa. And when it happens, they pay changes accordingly.

What a coincidence..

The excuses are as seemingly eternal as the debate but the end result remains... Women are paid less.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Which is another problem....

See, careers sometimes change from being male dominated to female dominated and vice versa. And when it happens, they pay changes accordingly.

What a coincidence..

Male CEOs (the majority) are probably very toxic aggressive people.

Now we're getting into the patriarchy.

I'm just speaking from my perspective as a consistently low-ranked employee. I have not seen females getting paid less at my level, from my perspective and position. I can only speak from that platform.

Technically I've experienced the opposite. I was a bartender and barista for a few years. I was paid less and eventually got fired from both positions because people prefer females and tip them significantly more.

When I was a barista the female GM fired all the males and hired all females. 100% female staff at a franchised starbucks.

Had to say it.

It's a muddy issue on both sides.

 

[JessFR]

Male CEOs (the majority) are probably very toxic aggressive people.

Now we're getting into the patriarchy.

I'm just speaking from my perspective as a consistently low-ranked employee. I have not seen females getting paid less at my level, from my perspective and position. I can only speak from that platform.

That might well be an accurate assessment. Problem is it doesn't seem to hold up at larger scales.

There's no disputing that not every woman is paid less than every man or that in every single workplace there's a gendered pay discrepancy. But broadly speaking the data seems to suggest it's by no means a small or isolated problem.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

@JessFR

Would you agree that women generally get paid more for service positions? (bartender, barista, waiter, etc..)?

I have certainly noticed that in my work career.

I would agree that men get paid more in executive careers.

Oh man, we could go on all night about this, and I don't really want to.

 

[JessFR]

@JessFR

Would you agree that women generally get paid more for service positions? (bartender, barista, waiter, etc..)?

I have certainly noticed that in my work career.

I would agree that men get paid more in executive careers.

Oh man, we could go on all night about this, and I don't really want to.

I wonder how well that pay disparity holds up as women get older...

I'm sure women strippers are paid more too, women prostitutes, women beggars. Provided they're young and at least mildly attractive.

I wouldn't really say that disproves the premise of a male dominated sexist system.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

I wonder how well that pay disparity holds up as women get older...

I'm sure women strippers are paid more too, women prostitutes, women beggars. Provided they're young and at least mildly attractive.

I wouldn't really say that disproves the premise of a male dominated sexist system.

very good counterpoint !

 

[JessFR]

Thing is none of it's right. It's not OK when it disadvantages men anymore than when it does women.

We talk about women more because that's the more widespread manifestation, but it's not exclusive to women.

Some of these problems probably are legitimately very hard to fix. Deeply rooted social constructs that women are by no means immune from engaging in themselves to the disadvantage of other women.

But others I suspect are quite fixable if there were more will to take action on them via legislation and the like. But such will tends to come as isolated periods of activity followed by long stretches of widespread disinterest.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Being honest, I have a suspicion that the reason you see no oppression is because well... It's people like you who are responsible for it.

Oh yeah, you do know "me" very well.
Not even an argument, just blatant lie and personal attack.
Swallow your pride.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I'll be honest man it sounds like you're pulling those facts out of your ass. (prove me wrong?)

It's not just middle eastern cultures. India and other less developed areas of the world (including parts Eurasia) have a huge problem with woman oppression.

Places where gang rape is common and women have no recourse when it happens to them. One of many absolutely aweful things that happen to women.

It's more common than you think for women to be considered nothing more than homemakers.

I'm not trying to be a white knight here, I am pointing out the obvious.

And no, I am not one who believes women get paid less than men (at least in my country). Technically they do, but it's not due to oppression.

Yeah, well what I was referring to in my first comment was the west.
Which facts? I know Islam pretty damn well and I can tell you that you can go ahead and try to break a family in Islamic country. Doesn't go out so easily. Cheating?
You get punished with death.
Birth rates? Look em up.
Majority of muslims worldwide think for example that sharia should be implemented which means very harsh punishments for things like homosexuality.
You like your pride parties? Don't go to middle-east.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Oh yeah, you do know "me" very well.
Not even an argument, just blatant lie and personal attack.
Swallow your pride.

lol it was an easy to make observation

you did, after all, claim that oppression against women doesn't exist

that was your argument

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Yeah, well what I was referring to in my first comment was the west.
Which facts? I know Islam pretty damn well and I can tell you that you can go ahead and try to break a family in Islamic country. Doesn't go out so easily. Cheating?
You get punished with death.
Birth rates? Look em up.
Majority of muslims worldwide think for example that sharia should be implemented which means very harsh punishments for things like homosexuality.
You like your pride parties? Don't go to middle-east.

... Get brutally gang raped? It's your fault.

by your logic (and theirs)

 

[JessFR]

lol it was an easy to make observation

you did, after all, claim that oppression against women doesn't exist

that was your argument

Yep. Also about how wonderful the parts of the world where you're put to death for violating his standards are.

Where on earth could I have gotten this notion from that he might be part of the problem?

Maybe it's all his talk about birth rates. The reason birth rates in the west are so low is cause women can do things other than raise more children.

How terrible!

Yeah no, I maintain my stance that the reason he can't see any oppression (other than against men) is cause you don't see as problems what you don't see as problems.

 

[Jabberwocky]

... Get brutally gang raped? It's your fault.

by your logic (and theirs)

No, it's not by my logic so. Could you please stop straw-manning? If you wanna have real discussion, I mean.
Please, point out how so far has my logic proved to support rapists? I'm just waiting to hear.

Maybe it's all his talk about birth rates. The reason birth rates in the west are so low is cause women can do things other than raise more children.

Much more reasons than this for it.
Infertility, economic instability, rising living and housing expenses, bad wage growth, cultural factors, unstable social situations. These are all reasons.
Most times, when you think of an issue in the real world, there are more causes than one.

 

[JessFR]

No, it's not by my logic so. Could you please stop straw-manning? If you wanna have real discussion, I mean.
Please, point out how so far has my logic proved to support rapists? I'm just waiting to hear.

Much more reasons than this for it.
Infertility, economic instability, rising living and housing expenses, bad wage growth, cultural factors, unstable social situations. These are all reasons.
Most times, when you think of an issue in the real world, there are more causes than one.

Most times, but not this time. The low fertility rate in the west is mostly because women have far more opportunity than in the past. Some of it is economic, people don't have as many kids when the future doesn't look as good, but mostly it's women having more prospects.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

No, it's not by my logic so. Could you please stop straw-manning? If you wanna have real discussion, I mean.
Please, point out how so far has my logic proved to support rapists? I'm just waiting to hear.

Denying oppression of women exists at all is indirectly supporting rapists from places where oppression is prominent.

That or you can't understand basic concepts.

My lesson is done. Homework may be required, not sure yet. I have a problem student.

I'll be honest man, I'm not trying to attack you but you seemingly have the inability to process certain concepts like oppression and racism. Just like the time you attacked American black people because they have their own dialect which was a direct result of slavery. You literally made fun of American black people because they talk differently as a result of cultural changes because they were enslaved and uneducated.... you have some sort of cognitive dissonance in your life. Again, not attacking you, but telling you firmly how it is.

 

[JessFR]

Denying oppression of women exists at all is indirectly supporting rapists from places where oppression is prominent.

My lesson is done. No homework tonight.

When where oppression isn't as prominent, even here in the west, it is far too common for men to get away with raping women in all sorts of contexts. And for societies to come up with justifications for that problem.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

Perhaps we are framing Toxic Masculinity in terms of Political Science? It can be discussed in terms of Philosophy but when one concentrates on oppression one is speaking in terms of political and sociological power and effects. If everyone wishes to discuss these aspects then perhaps this discussion belongs in Science and Politics.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

If toxic masculinity exists, so does toxic femininity.

here in the west, it is far too common for men to get away with raping women in all sorts of contexts

It is more common in Africa, but nobody says "African toxicity" do they?

It is problematic to apply the label toxic to a gender or race.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Most times, but not this time. The low fertility rate in the west is mostly because women have far more opportunity than in the past. Some of it is economic, people don't have as many kids when the future doesn't look as good, but mostly it's women having more prospects.

This is something we can agree to disagree on.

Denying oppression of women exists at all is indirectly supporting rapists from places where oppression is prominent.

That or you can't understand basic concepts.

My lesson is done. Homework may be required, not sure yet. I have a problem student.

I'll be honest man, I'm not trying to attack you but you seemingly have the inability to process certain concepts like oppression and racism. Just like the time you attacked American black people because they have their own dialect which was a direct result of slavery. You literally made fun of American black people because they talk differently as a result of cultural changes because they were enslaved and uneducated.... you have some sort of cognitive dissonance in your life. Again, not attacking you, but telling you firmly how it is.

I specified that I meant the west by saying there's no oppression. You're straw-manning here once again.
"Oh, you said there is no oppression!"
Yes, I did. I specified it to mean western societies. Can you argue against it?