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Opinion To Be or Not To Be (An Abortion Thread)

dalpat077

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To have a higher chance of carrying on your last name. Or maybe it is a social thing? Look at other countries & tribes. Maybe if the man has lots of children then he is seen higher in the community.
Just popping my head in to say the above a true story. In South Africa, for example, it is indeed still prevalent among certain nations (or tribes as you'd call them).
 

MsDiz

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Ok, so I obviously meant that women lucked out in the equation of "who gets to make the decisions for both parties". I never suggested that childbirth was easy or that going through an abortion was easy.



Again, never said "they have it easy". I fully support the right to abortion. I'm simply trying to address some issues that aren't frequently discussed. If you remain intellectually honest and logically consistent, I think you will agree the points I make have merit.



Number one, yes, I would say losing a child you don't want to lose is harder than going through an abortion that you elect to have. In the scenario I outlined, Male 1 is grieving the loss of their child that the woman chose to terminate. IDK if you got the situations mixed up, but yeah.



Why is he having unprotected sex? Why is SHE having unprotected sex? All your questions can be asked of her as well. The important facts in this scenario are that the woman can free herself of all responsibility if she so chooses, but the male is at the mercy of her decision. If it was an unplanned pregnancy and the female has the right to terminate the pregnancy without the consent of the father (which I support), all I'm saying is the man ought to have the right to opt out of his association with the child as well. He knew the risks, but so did she. If she CHOOSES to proceed with the pregnancy she ought to think it through and give him the same choice she had.



Don't be shocked, just think about my words objectively. Pretty sure I'm not crazy as others here have agreed I've made good points. Remember that I AM ultimately pro choice. I am just bringing up some points that aren't often discussed to drum up some discussion.



Absolutely. But you do agree that what you just said is the equivalent of telling women to keep their legs closed, right? We can do better than that.
I’m sorry for being harsh in that last reply. I’m coming at this from an Irish viewpoint and with everything going on at the moment it’s hard to see it from another countries perspective. Women here not to long ago were put into a home and dismissed from their family if they were found to be pregnant out of marriage. Men were left to continue on as normal. Even if it was known which man was responsible.
Women have been told to keep their legs closed constantly whilst guys have been free to run round and impregnate the country and got a pat on the back for it.


You’re right, male2 I forgot to add a massive part. She’s the one who has to be Pregnant for 9 months, that’s a whole 9 months for her to lament over the situation and how she got in it and I can guarantee you she will do that probably every day (I did!!!!) I was lucky, I had a guy who said he accepted his part in creating a life but realised that I was the one that had to make the decision at the end of the day (after him and me talking about it) because it was my body that this life required in order to live.

It my was life at risk. I think people forget that childbirth was the main killer of women until not too long ago when medicine became more advanced. Even now, with women still fighting for equality in health there are still far too many deaths due to being pregnant. In 2015 300,000 women died due to pregnancy/childbirth. (That includes women who’ve died due to abortions.) That is too many!
The mothers now suffering most in developed countries are black mothers who in the UK are 5 times more likely to die during pregnancy and childbirth than white mothers. That is heartbreaking.

During lockdown in Ireland, women are being forced to go through pregnancy alone because they aren’t deemed to warrant support. Women are going to scans to find out their child has died alone, to find out their child is disabled alone, to find their child won’t make it past a few weeks at birth alone. They are still FORCED to take the burden all on themselves EVEN when a man is involved!!! Wtf like?!

If a guy and girl get pregnant and she decides to keep (edit: correcting spelling) the child which he doesn’t want then I’m sorry but financially he is responsible as it is his child. If he didn’t want responsibility that much, to deny the existence of his own child, then don’t risk having sex. If someone is so stubborn about something to the point of denying their own offspring then they should be celibate until a 100% effective form of contraception has been invented.

A guy was crowing last week in the shop I was in that the child he was made to pay for only gets €4 a month from his pay pack through the government payment system, men are still the winners. 🤷🏼‍♀️
 
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JessFR

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I still don't understand what you're saying.

How are men disadvantaged by being able to have a thousand kids vs women who can't have anything like as many.
 

w01fg4ng

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The mothers now suffering most in developed countries are black mothers who in the UK are 5 times more likely to die during pregnancy and childbirth than white mothers. That is heartbreaking.
It's a systemic problem. Similar stats can be found around covid cases.
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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If only people were as concerned with others when it comes to more general issues.

I understand the issues with this viewpoint but it is striking that we seemingly care so much, while still having become so desensitized to say war, hunger and poverty.
 

JessFR

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If only people were as concerned with others when it comes to more general issues.

I understand the issues with this viewpoint but it is striking that we seemingly care so much, while still having become so desensitized to say war, hunger and poverty.

This argument really falls flat on its face, for one simple reason.

If you follow a pro life belief that abortion is killing a valid human life, this IS one of those big general issues.

In fact it is far higher in its death rate than many wars. And that's in spite of abortion rates declining for decades now.

So, no, this is just another circular argument. Saying essentially "it's a shame you don't care about something that kills lots of people, because in my opinion this doesn't kill lots of people".

You can have that opinion, but that opinion IS what we're debating so there's no point in using it as an argument in the debate as well.
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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This argument really falls flat on its face, for one simple reason.

If you follow a pro life belief that abortion is killing a valid human life, this IS one of those bit general issues.

In fact is far higher than many wars. And that's in spite of abortions for decades now.

So, no, this just another circular argument. Saying essentially "it's a shame you don't care about something that kills lots of people, because in my opinion this doesn't kill lots of people".

You can have that opinion, but that opinion IS what we're debating so there's no point in using it as an argument in the debate as well.
I know I know, that's why I said I understood the issues with it. But it's something worth pointing out, it even goes both ways as you said, both pro-life and pro-choice people argue in favor of less human suffering.
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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It is always the end-all dead-all argument, often a moot point, but seldom not worth making. In a way being pro-life is some sort of social protest no? Battling for the most basic right, the right to live, includes strongly condemning e.g. economic injustices, bombings and sanctions, otherwise it seems quite hypocritical. Moving away from the easy stance "it's not my problem" is commendable but it loses it strength when only applied to once specific issue.

I'm not saying that an ultimate moral high ground as such will change anything, but it will make the abortion point much stronger, until then, the pro-lifers will always be somewhat patronized.
 

JessFR

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Well I tend to agree but being here arguing abortion for the pro life side doesn't imply that any of us don't take other social problems seriously.

Anyone familiar with my posting here I suspect would recognize that I actually bitch far more about some other social issues.
 

Cream Gravy?

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In 2015 300,000 women died due to pregnancy/childbirth.
Dear God... we have a pregnancy crisis!!! Immediately ban all pregnancies' unless you receive them weekly from your MMT clinic... wait, umm, wrong topic.

Now I'm just being silly, I'll step out.

Opioid Crisis MY ASS
 

D's

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Male Seals often rape penguins, and it usually kills the penguin. :(
There is definitely some sexual aggression there.
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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Well I tend to agree but being here arguing abortion for the pro life side doesn't imply that any of us don't take other social problems seriously.

Anyone familiar with my posting here I suspect would recognize that I actually bitch far more about some other social issues.
Except strong economic sanctions against Venezuela and Syria then =D =D
Feel free to ignore that one. I'm not saying you don't, I enjoy reading you battling it out here and everywhere, I'm just insinuating most pro-lifers don't. Which isn't a crime or anything, probably quite logical, I'll just never be able to look beyond the hypocrisy of the message. In Europe the anti-abortion stance is mostly pushed by Christian and right wing parties. Well it just so happens that the latter doesn't seem to regard all life as equal at all by their actions, which is the absolute main driving point of pro-life (all life is equal, whether it's a fetus or a 40 year old Somalian).

I do very much respect how being pro-life is essentially recognizing the extreme desensitization to human life and suffering in today's society, possibly one of the biggest symptoms of our corporate life visions. But maybe that desensitization was always there, who knows...
 

birdup.snaildown

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D's said:
Male Seals often rape penguins, and it usually kills the penguin. :(
There is definitely some sexual aggression there.

I like to think those situations somehow aren't as bad as they seem. Like with the Praying Mantis, does the male think "fuck it, it was worth it" before his head gets eaten? Does it start out consensual between seals and penguins.. and then inevitably it just goes a bit too far? Maybe it's not a bad way to die, for a slutty penguin. Being fucked to death by a seal. Bird up.
 
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