The Small & Handy NDTDI Thread

bjznoviskey

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N,N-diethyl-3-(methyl(1,3,4,5-tetrahydrobenzo[cd]indol-4-yl)amino)propanamide



Any educated speculations based on SAR?
 
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Bigazznugz

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Supposed to be like lsd? Interseting. I womder what the differences are. Its got lsd core structure and the antlers so i am intrigued. [snip - no price discussion please]
 
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Jonneh

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Wow. No educated speculations, no, but apparently that carbon that keeps the thing more or less planar is sorely missed in terms of potency, if the 5-10 mg active dose quoted is anything to go by.

Interesting move though.
 

Solipsis

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NDEPA type compounds which are also modeled after a less-constrained simplified LSD structure are apparently also active and potent. To me that suggests that the loss of the planar / constrained ring perhaps can be afforded, but a compound like this also misses the electronic function of the 9,10 pi-bond a la 9,10-dihydro-LSD. So perhaps it were better if there was something there to make up for this loss.. Lumi-LSD tells us it's tricky though...
 
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Jonneh

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NDEPA type compounds which are also modeled after a less-constrained simplified LSD structure are apparently also active and potent.
Ah, those were the ones that Hans guy made and tested, right?

I suppose another possibility along these lines would be the LSD structure with the 9 carbon, as usual, but without the pyrrole ring. Ever heard of anything like that?

 
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Solipsis

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It appears to be a hexahydrobenzoquinolinamide but I have no info.
Tryptamines lysergamides and phenethylamines all have something polar there where you took away the (dihydro)pyrrole so it might at least need like a methoxy there, but then again you can't mix up SAR like that.
 

Jonneh

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It's really just a constrained NDEPA, so we might be OK on the SAR front, given whatever (polar stuff) worked for Hans on the benzene ring, right?
 

Solipsis

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Who knows how constrained the compound has to be going from NDEPA >> LSD before the SAR starts making demands that don't apply to PEAs but more or less do to lysergamides?
 

Jonneh

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Absolutely, one cannot expect to be rid of uncertainty. It seems to me that we're not 'mixing up SARs' (which we're defining as invalid to the extent that the end result is less likely to work than a given modification to either of the parent structures) any more than the NDEPAs were. Perhaps it was fortunate that they turned out so active.
 

Solipsis

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It seems like an incredible coincidence that LSD was discovered as is without intentionally designing it and matches the 5HT2A pharmacophore so well, on an unrelated note I guess... LSD is not so tolerant to modifications, that NDEPA's do work that doesn't necessarily say that much since the amide backchain is so unconstrained that changes to the structure that make the whole thing be "scootched over" when binding may be much better tolerated because the much looser NDEPA amide backchain can gyrate a bit to accomodate that diethylamide function to fit whereas something like LSD is rather inflexible so you can't make only some parts of it scootch over but not others.

That is what I meant by mixing SARs: that LSD may not tolerate modifications that adhere to alternate configurations that belong to other families like the PEAs.
 

bjznoviskey

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Off topic, I found the archived thread where Hans posts his results for NDEPA's and read through his PDF. Holy shit, that's so interesting, did anything else come from him? Dude seemed pretty humble for doing something so seemingly groundbreaking. Definitely gives NDTDI hope of being psychedelicly active.
 

Jonneh

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That is what I meant by mixing SARs: that LSD may not tolerate modifications that adhere to alternate configurations that belong to other families like the PEAs.
I see what you mean. I though for a minute you were referring to a methelenedioxy-LSD type SAR travesty. In the end we're talking about constrainedness: liberating modifications to LSD (like the molecule that is the subject of this thread) stand a good chance of working if they 'adhere to alternate configurations of other families like the PEAs', as you put it; modifications that do not make it less constrained, but merely fiddle with potentially important constituents, are less well tolerated.

I agree that the discovery of such a stubborn compound as LSD 'as is' seems like bit of a mystery, although it could be that Hoffman synthesised a bunch of derivatives (and got them on his fingers, the mucky pup) before he got to LSD-25. In that case his fingers acted as a high-pass filter which would only detect such an ultra-potent compound, and nothing lesser! If he was shovelling them into his mouth milligrams at a time, this might be a world without LSD.
 
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Bigazznugz

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Should have a sample of this coming my way in about 2 weeks. I am very intrigued about this. I have mo idea what to expect in terms of effects or duration. I hope its a winner because this opens the door to many different substitutions.
Anyone else tasted this yet?
Thanks
Nugz
 

Solipsis

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^ Interesting, be careful and keep us posted pls :)

The duration seems hard to predict and I'd 'hope for the best prepare for the worst', but if I would take a wild guess I think maybe something like 2 hours shorter than LSD? On account of the primary metabolism not really happening at positions that are different (the 4th ring), but instead just dealkylation and 2-oxo-3-hydroxy oxidation of the indole nucleus, all of which would still be expected to happen with NDTDI. But maybe a bit easier if enzymes gain more steric access to the structure, hence the guess that it might be a little shorter. [Or would it be a LOT shorter because MALT / 5-MeO-MALT are as well?]
Mostly saying that as a gamble to see if it turns out to be a close estimation. Like I said: clear your schedule to be sure.
 
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Bigazznugz

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^ Interesting, be careful and keep us posted pls :)

The duration seems hard to predict and I'd 'hope for the best prepare for the worst', but if I would take a wild guess I think maybe something like 2 hours shorter than LSD? On account of the primary metabolism not really happening at positions that are different (the 4th ring), but instead just dealkylation and 2-oxo-3-hydroxy oxidation of the indole nucleus, all of which would still be expected to happen with NDTDI. But maybe a bit easier if enzymes gain more steric access to the structure, hence the guess that it might be a little shorter. [Or would it be a LOT shorter because MALT / 5-MeO-MALT are as well?]
Mostly saying that as a gamble to see if it turns out to be a close estimation. Like I said: clear your schedule to be sure.
yes I will be carefull with it im not sure if its coming in powder or possibly blotters. Do you guys expect this to be a visual expierence? Also is this is not a lysegamine? Is it even considered a tryptamine?
also is there any documentation or any trip reports from any NDEPA's. I just wanna get a litle more info before going at it.
many thanks,
nugz
 

perpetualdawn

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I can't speak with any authority on the nomenclature for this class of substance, but personally I fancy that we call it something new. It's pretty close to a lysergamide but with that ring broken open, it strikes me as a new class.

I hope this goes without saying, but please don't jump in at the "recommended" 5-10mg dose. Titrate up!

Very excited to hear reports on this.
 

Solipsis

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yes I will be carefull with it im not sure if its coming in powder or possibly blotters. Do you guys expect this to be a visual expierence? Also is this is not a lysegamine? Is it even considered a tryptamine?
also is there any documentation or any trip reports from any NDEPA's. I just wanna get a litle more info before going at it.
many thanks,
nugz
About the quality of the trip: impossible to say, you cannot predict it - the metabolism you can take an educated guess at (mine was only moderately educated I think) but visual etc you cannot say looking at the structure.

It is not a lysergamide, it is a modified tryptamine like lysergamides are as well. You can also call it a cyclized or tricyclic tryptamine. Or a benzoquinolinamide, a hexahydrobenzoquinolinamide to be more precise.

Absolutely titrate like perp said!

Hans Meyer who made NDEPA's sampled them and reported on them here: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/724338-Self-experiments-with-new-series-of-NXXX-phenylethylamines
But because of his condition he only tried low doses and checked effects that appear anti-depressant like in nature. Some seemed to have visual potential for sure, but the structures are actually quite different from NDTDI. The comparisons are mostly about the NDEPA group, which is relevant to NDTDI... but trying to conclude anything from the NDEPAs is kinda pointless just like you cannot even predict anything well from the much closer similarity to LSD.
 

aced126

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LSD can be thought of a rigidified version of this molecule. The energy-minimised form of this molecule, however, will be quite different from that of LSD, and thus it will have a much lower affinity for the binding cavity in 5HT2a and a few other relevant receptors. The dosage of this one will be much higher than that of LSD, as rigidified structures have the potential to increase binding affinity of drugs by orders of magnitude. With that being said, I would obviously be careful dosing this one, and read as many reports as possible if there are any.
 

Solipsis

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Sure, so true ^ the indicated dosage of 5-10 mg confirms that. Who knows what kind of affinities to different receptors this one has, ones that may not really pose problems when taking LSD but that might be relevant here because the dosage is higher and the molecule is more free to gyrate.

There is really not that much to compare with here. Fortunately there aren't many other psychedelics that really directly suggest big risks, but still this is pioneering.
 
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