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the shapelle corby televised judgement

chugs said:
The prosecution tendered only 1 fact; the bag was in her possession.
[/B]

Um, incase you didn't realise...she was only charged witht POSSESSION.

She had the pot in her possession. That's the only fact they needed to tender.

Corby's defence can trot out any excuse under the sun...aliens could have planted the drugs for all they care...she had the pot in her POSSESSION. Case close, back in 20. 8)
 
People keep implying that the bag might not have had prints on it hence justifying the Judges decision to hold such an omission of evidence irrelevant.

Holy fuck it’s like having a gun and accusing someone of firing it but not even taking fingerprints to determine who did fire it in the first place. Sure the person could have worn gloves but that is no excuse for not trying to gather evidence. It’s an omission and a huge one.

The Indonesian judicial system is flawed if Judges are allowed to disregard omissions and failures by their Law Enforcement agencies, simply because the person was in possession of a substance. Lazy investigations have been known to cause mis&re-trials in most countries in the Western world.

For example in Australia if the police executing a warrant fail, through gross incompetence, to obtain (or tried to) information relevant to the case at hand then that would easily be grounds for a mistrial since it could be argued the accused lost an opportunity to prove their innocence.

The same should have applied in Corby's case – the fact she was not given the opportunity simply reflects fallibility of the Indonesian system hence holding credible all the complaints that these people do not have a system capable (or deserving) of trying anybody.

It’s called a miscarriage of justice. Plain and simple – Claiming that the Judges somehow had more facts, when its been established there is only 1 fact in this case (she had the cannabis) in her bag, is a cop out. It reflects your inability to understand that to omit evidence which could reflect your innocence is just as relevant as having the smoking gun.
 
Originally posted by chugs It’s called a miscarriage of justice. Plain and simple[/B]

Not in Indonesia its not. Stop trying to compare Indo's laws with Australian laws. They're different. Just like the US still has capital punishment - their laws are different to ours.

The bag could have had Jesus Christ's fingerprints on it, all that would prove is he touched the bag...the bag WAS STILL IN CORBY'S POSSESSION.

And don't get too high and mighty, you might take the time to look at more local cases...I think you'll find there's plenty of miscarriages of justice in Australia. Do you spend so much effort trying to rectify those?
 
Just because a country has a different culture, a different way doesn't make it right - I don't agree with the US and I don't agree with Australia's and I certainly don't agree with Indonesia laws. Their laws (just like practically everyone else's) are flawed and worse still executed poorly.

So I should be more concerned with other injustices, ok lets ignore Corby - what's more important, tell me, who's life is more important then Corby's? What about you, what causes do you pursue that are so much more holier then Corby?

For fucking once the people who think politics is a turn off (and like to vote for the guy that looks more trustworthy) seem to be awakening, for something that we all here ultimately believe is a travesty (that someone should go to jail for such a bullshit crime). Stop playing devils fucking advocate for once and get on the bandwagon.

For once the mass could actually affect change for the greater good.

What is so alien with forcing the Indonesians to let her go. Oh no a precedent, can't have that, that would mean we might have to let other people go convicted through the poor execution of bullshit laws. How wrong of people to try and effect change like that. Who cares for the Indonesian laws, they get trampled on by practically everyone in their society plus the rest of the world.

What is scaring the powers that be, is that a vast amount of people are actually telling the government that their policy is not the direct that they want to go in. Just join the bandwagon and help the people see the power they really hold. Turn Corby into an avalanche, a trigger for change in all the other injustices that our apathy has allowed to occur.

If the first thing to start the change is a fight over a westie fish & chips chick then so be it but at least its a start.
 
You're deluded if you think a bunch of Australians having a cry over Corby is going to change Indonesia's laws.

If you're so concerned about these bullshit drug laws, look closed to home - a Japanese person spent 10+ years in an Australian prison, under exactly the same circumstances...

Do you think if half of Japan jumped up and down we'd have taken any notice? Would we have changed our laws and let her go?

Extreme double standards this nation seems to hold have been severely hightlighed since this incident. You're the one with a holier than thou attitude, not those who can accept that Indonesia's laws mean Indonesia can do whatever they hell they want in Indonesia, regards of whether some bloke in Australia thinks their judicial process is still in the dark ages.
 
After the germ attacks on their embassy, she will now get death for sure on appeal, that may prove to be a better thing than dying of explosive diarrheoa or starvation.

No judge should be gleeful in sentencing this sums up their attitude towards "justice". He was vindictive, spiteful and enjoyed gloating infront of the Aussie media. This was more about politics than the case.


ecctitude: All those other cases are very interesting, however they bear no relevance to the case we were discussing. People feel that there has been a particular injustice here. And who is going to stand up for 2 homos in fiji? As if being locked up with other men isn't a paradise for them anyway....you're saying the attention Schapelle got isn't fair, well it is if this wasn't fair. Why doesn't everyone else get the same treatment? Not all cases are the same and life just isn't fair sometimes. Just because there are other perceived injustices doesn't mean we should all cut and run from this one and leave them all to rot.

Indonesia's laws mean Indonesia can do whatever they hell they want in Indonesia

It doesn't mean we can't bring injustices to their attention.
 
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clocker said:
No judge should be gleeful in sentencing this sums up their attitude towards "justice". He was vindictive, spiteful and enjoyed gloating infront of the Aussie media. This was more about politics than the case.

Did you read the Jakarta Post article? If you were told how to do your job by a nation of hysterical, irrational people, whilst having abuse hurled at you by a nut-job of a mother who is make less sense every day, don't you think you'd take a small delight in delivering your verdict?

But to be honest, I don't really think you could call his speech vindictive or spiteful. For a start, there were three judges reading out their speech, not just one.

Plus of coursre it was in Indonesian...which kinda makes it hard to work out whether he's gloating, or just talking about the nice weather.
 
It comes with the job; if a judge can't be impartial because some stupid old bag is insulting him then he shouldn't be in the job. His judge who is required to be above insults, he administrates the law, not emotion.

Extreme double standards this nation seems to hold

If you can't live with contradiction then you’re living in the wrong universe.

However yes ok I get it there are other crimes going on around the world and I whole heartily support the need to save those people. I donate, I fight, I debate, I try and change people’s mind on a whole range of things but you can’t dictate that the country can’t be interested in a certain issue simply because there are similar occurrences.

If you can get the country to see the injustice in this matter then we can steer them to the other injustices that are occurring. Who knows if we can free Corby over preasure maybe people will think its possible to free Hicks or anyone of thousands of people facing injustice.

You have to start somewhere.

Holier than thou attitude

Call the kettle black, you people seem to think there is nothing more holier then the sanctity of the Judge, Sovereignty of Indonesia and its god (or chaos) given right to do whatever it pleases, without consequence to those decisions.

What does it serve you to support Indonesia right do this? Does it enrich your life; does it better the world defending countries that are imprisoning people over lies, corruption and self-interest? What is the bigger good in this case? Defending a failed and corrupt system or getting someone out of jail?
 
clocker said:


ecctitude: All those other cases are very interesting, however they bear no relevance to the case we were discussing. People feel that there has been a particular injustice here. And who is going to stand up for 2 homos in fiji? As if being locked up with other men isn't a paradise for them anyway....you're saying the attention Schapelle got isn't fair, well it is if this wasn't fair.



Clocker: I drew attention to these cases in response to Chugs' proposition, and the very real link that the same QC that had these murder convictions overturned will be assisting in the Corby appeal:
I would love it if the Indonesians were able to point facts in relation to a travesty of justices in our country. If they did I would be publicly 100% behind them.

As for the "And who is going to stand up for 2 homos in fiji?", at least the Australian and Fijian men were doing something that was completely legal if they were in Australia. The beauty school student that Chugs is getting so worked up over was convicted of a crime that is illegal in both Indonesia AND Australia. For Chugs to advocate boycotting Indonesia, and deciding to not even respond to my question about Fiji, and your phraseology of "2 homos", just smacks of homophobic hypocrisy.
 
I boycott a huge number of australian (and other countries) services & products due to their inablity to meet their social & enviroment responsiblities. I don't support politicans (and actively arguing and spend my money to this end). Hell i refuse to go to the states, try to not buy american goods. I fight with practically everyone who agrees with bullshit laws & policies which reduced our world to a bunch of haves and have nots.

(again) Laws are what the majority define as "right" - if you think trading pot should be illegal then your as ignorant as much as you are dumb.

We break laws every day of our lives, from speeding, to not paying for a train ticket, spitting, fighting, drugs, stealing and a billion and one other things.

If you can't handle contradiction and think anyone that supports Corby is a flaming hypocritic then look at your own hypocrisy in that you break laws just as much as the next person. On that basis how can you condone Corbys imprisioment for something you do yourself?

Just because she got caught is not a reason to not help her (or for that matter anyone else).
 
On that basis how can you condone Corbys imprisioment for something you do yourself?

Um, I don't smoke pot, and I sure as hell don't walk through airport customs with 4.1kgs of quality MJ in my bag, so I'm not quite sure what your point is?


chugs said:
We break laws every day of our lives, from speeding, to not paying for a train ticket, spitting, fighting, drugs, stealing and a billion and one other things.

Sounds like your a top bloke, clearly I should throw away my current moral point of view and embrace your radical, in your face kinda lifestyle, that'll definitely get Corby out of jail. 8) 8)

Given that last post, we're clearly never going to come anywhere close to agreeing about pretty much anything in this world, so I may as well retreat quietly to my corner, eat my American owned chips, watch my Asian made TV, dream about my upcoming Bali holiday, drive my gas-guzzling 4x4 and enjoy glass of wine I bought from a winery that uses pesticides.
 
chugs, I hear what you're saying, and yes, it is fine that you choose to standup for Corby over other sufferers of injustice at the moment. After all, it is the topic of this discussion, and also, with so much grief in the world, each and every person chooses who they will dedicate their time and effort to help - there are many choices, and ultimately, who deserves help is for us to decide by ourselves.

I guess the biggest problem is this: it is impractical to protest against a country's laws by making demands about a single convict. It is a contentious issue, and making firm demands about Corby will not work, considering the understandable perception in Indonesia of Corby being guilty.

To make demands about her release is to ignore the fact that the Indonesians reasonably believe in her guilt, as determined by their courts. If you are to make demands about a guilty prisoner over there, then they may make demands about guilty Indonesians in prison over here. And then where will you stand? How will you refuse them, when it is really a matter of subjective perception about guilt, severity of crime and even integrity of courts? It is not a world of black and white, but a world of balance - for every criticism of Indonesia, an equal and opposite criticism may be made of Australia, and so the cycle continues.

Therein lies the double standard - to expect something of Indonesia that you would never approve of your own country doing.
 
To make demands about her release is to ignore the fact that the Indonesians reasonably believe in her guilt

Um no it isn't - seriously the "demands" are being made because the judgement is flawed. The Indonesians could believe anything that want but that won't make it right. A belief is certainly not a truth.

If you are to make demands about a guilty prisoner over there, then they may make demands about guilty Indonesians in prison over here

Fuck wouldn't that be great - those poor fisherman locked up in Darwin for breaking an invisible border (fishing apparently in our zone). Did you know the other day we actually killed one of those poor bastards up in Darwin goal.

In fact it’s pretty fucking sad, these guys get grabbed, no one tells their family the breadwinner has been imprisoned and for 6-12 months no one actually knows where they are. Their livelihood is destroyed, families ripped apart, massive social upheavel (poverty, sexual slavery etc). So yes I would be grateful if the Indonesians actually stood up for their fellow country man and pushed the Australian government to release them.

How will you refuse them, when it is really a matter of subjective perception about guilt, severity of crime and even integrity of courts?

Not going to refuse them - seriously what are you worried about? Its not like their going to invade us or ask for anything that we don't have plenty of (i.e. their imprisioned countrypeople). Hell even if some stupid Indonesian managed to blow something up I’d more then happy to swap him for an Australian (I’m sure though he’d doing everything he could to stay in an Australian Jail).

Where did you assume that I had some aversion to Indonesians boycotting Australia.
Indeed if its good for the western world to boycott anything that doesn’t meet its moral & ethical codes then why can’t they?

So nup not that worried, hell if some poor little Indonesian girl gets done for pot or smack trafficking over here I would easily be prepared to fight for the Indonesians right to have her deported back to the homeland.

It is not a world of black and white, but a world of balance - for every criticism of Indonesia, an equal and opposite criticism may be made of Australia, and so the cycle continues

Um right the anti-corby/pro-indoensian lot are the ones arguing the black and white of the Indonesian court, and how sacrilegious its judgement is, impervious to all criticism and logic.

But yes the world is full of contradictions and if Indonesia wants to criticise us then so be it, not fussed about that either. Oh no they’ll keep us out of the South-East ASEAN conference, not like they wanted us there before all this happened anyway.

We have nothing to lose but everything to gain by freeing Corby. Who cares if some judge(s) claims she committed a crime, their only human and no more infallible then anyone else. They don’t have a god given, just a corruptly given right to judge people.
 
Your last post proved to me that you are a near sighted person - your stubbornness doesn't let you see beyond your own views - even though your views are very honourable, and I respect you for that.

Um no it isn't - seriously the "demands" are being made because the judgement is flawed. The Indonesians could believe anything that want but that won't make it right. A belief is certainly not a truth.

I give up. Are you missing function in a part of your brain that is necessary for you to realise that this is YOUR VIEW, while the Indonesian people have THEIR VIEW. No view is more or less credible - too much hearsay and feeling motivates you to hold the view that you do - you don't have anything solid to support your statement.

So why do you think you can make such a serious claim about their courts being flawed? Time and time again you have failed to provide solid evidence of your claim - surely you realise that when you make such a strong statement, some evidence is expected in support of your case? Such rules of providing evidence for serious claims are necessary if the world is to maintain order - perhaps, you might reason, there is much common knowledge/anecdotal evidence about Indonesian corruption etc etc. But you should always be prepared to have some solid evidence pertaining to the specific claim that you make - otherwise do not expect to be taken seriously.

If you expect drastic action to be taken on account of your convictions about the Indonesian courts, then you must be prepared to provide objective proof of your claim. Otherwise, we could all accuse the tax department of being corrupt (because everyone knows it!!!?) and ask for our money back. Just like when a criminal is obviously guilty, a hearing is still had. Why? Because a procedure needs to be followed to maintain a system that works in most cases, for the greater good - often, implementing a procedure is a waste of time because the outcome is obvious. But that is not the point - there must be no complacency. So if you ever actually want your views to go beyond the realm of personal discussion, provide evidence for your claims about the corruption in Corby's hearings, and you will be a champion of the nation.

Until you become a champion of the nation, I will continue the discussion in the context of Corby being guilty.


I'll quickly address your points about Indonesian prisoners etc. The fact is, a foreigner in a country who breaks a law of that land is subject to the punishment of the country. All countries have different laws, where things might be illegal in one country and not the other, vice versa etc etc. If every country was to demand the release of its people from foreign prisons where they believe the laws of the detaining country are not right, then you would have chaos.

It is one thing to demand the release of a prisoner who is wrongfully convicted. It is another thing to demand the release of a prisoner who broke the law of the land. It would be nice, though, if some connection existed between both countries to facilitate some real discussion concerning harsh laws in each country.

But this is where incongruent perception means an agreement will never be reached. A crime that is serious in one country will often be petty in another. So HOW do two nations agree about prisoners then? Do they have a fucking war? Comeon man, you must realise that in such a situation, to demand the release of a prisoner is a breach of sovereignty and the right to govern one's own country.

It is one thing for a country to appeal about the treatment of the prisoner, and to make sure international laws and human rights are not breached. There are avenues for such complaints. But it is different to complain about the detention of a person because their country of origin doesn't believe that their crime was serious. Surely you agree that a nation is entitled to its own opinion about laws in the country? If you do, then a country acting within its own laws when passing judgment has done nothing wrong, even if you disagree with their laws (which I often do).

Who cares if some judge(s) claims she committed a crime, their only human and no more infallible then anyone else. They don’t have a god given, just a corruptly given right to judge people.

Who cares if some judge sentences a murderer to life in prison? Let the guy out, how do I know the judge didn't make a fuckin mistake! Who cares if my doctor tells me I've got cancer? They are only human!!!!!!!! I mean, their opinion on the law or medicine is about as reliable as a used car salesman's, right? 5-7+ years of tertiary education and many more years of real life experience in their fields doesn't make them any different from the next guy, no way sir.


Who does have a god given right to judge? Apart from god, if/in whatever form it exists, no-one does. But society is designed in such a way that there are members of society who are most qualified to judge, most qualified to operate, most qualified to build automobile engines etc. The one's who are most qualified to judge are called 'judges' - pretty cool eh?
 
chugs said:
Who cares if some judge(s) claims she committed a crime, their only human and no more infallible then anyone else. They don’t have a god given, just a corruptly given right to judge people.

I think you'll find in most democratic countries that have a seperation of the Legislature and the Judiciary, that the Judicial system is based on having a prosecutor claiming a person committed a crime, and the system tests the veracity of evidence on which that claim is made. The system may be a panel of Judges or a panel of Jurors instructed by a Judge. You are correct in stating that a Judge doesn't have a god given right to Judge -- it's a man given right, but that's a totally different kettle of fish about how most law societies are the ultimate 'old boys' club. 8)
 
sigh - this is my last post on the subject, flame all you want � I don't think calling me near sighted is particularly nice but hey I'm an adult, I can handle your morally neutral attitude on life.

I've highlighted several issues which would have caused a mistrial/retrial/innocence.

I think morally doing nothing to save her is reprehensible and wrong (just like leaving Hicks and any number of other people in similar injustices).

You can bitch and moan about Indonesia's god damn given right to do whatever it wants however it will never make what they're doing right. It doesn't explain or clearly state why a country can destroy the life of individual (or for that matter an entire people). Yet when a person advocates the economic embargo of that country, for such a wrong, all you can do is bleat about the hypocrisy of it all.

If you can't live in a world of hypocrisy then you're living in the wrong universe. If you think a certain action should be stopped because of hypocrisy then hey lets just sit back and not do anything.

Till you start offering constructive suggestions on what to do on how to get her out I still think a boycott is justified and ultimately the most effective way to get our message across.

To be honest I stop buying Indonesian goods & services due mostly to the Timor massacres (hell I didn�t buy as soon as I heard about the first big massacre they had 20/30 years ago) the evil they�ve committed in Java.

However I'll leave you all with this (and you'll never hear from me again); would you purchase goods & services from a country which is imposing a moral and legal imposition (which you don't believe in) onto a person/people which has destroyed the life of that person/people?
 
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chugs said:
would you purchase goods & services from a country which is imposing a moral and legal imposition (which you don’t believe in) onto a person/people which has destroyed the life of that person/people?

3 words: America, Afghanistan, Iraq 8)
 
But to be honest, I don't really think you could call his speech vindictive or spiteful. For a start, there were three judges reading out their speech, not just one.

"Go to hell" when referring to schapelle was a quote from one of his media releases. Yes he is so centred and impartial.

I can't believe that on a website full of drug fucks, there are people happy to see someone go to a stink-hole jail (where she may die of disease or starvation) for 20 years over pot which may very well never have been hers (we will never know thanks to the indonesian "investigation"). In light of the Qanats baggage handler affair and other travellers telling similar stories a somewhat credible defence was presented. Her defence was never addressed.

You're deluded if you think a bunch of Australians having a cry over Corby is going to change Indonesia's laws.

Whilst this may be true in this case, if throughout modern history no one ever protested we would not have the freedoms we have today. Democracy and social reforms have their origins in dissent. If you can't be fucked, then don't do anything. No one here is asking you to do anything.
The beauty school student that Chugs is getting so worked up over was convicted of a crime that is illegal in both Indonesia AND Australia.

pot possession is hardly a crime though is it? It's a victimless crime. We're all adults and it's your own body.
 
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chugs said:
Till you start offering constructive suggestions on what to do on how to get her out

Don't look at me, I think she did it. And if you choose to deal in a country who's stance on the subject is more than well known then you must be prepared to accept the consequences.

pot possession is hardly a crime though is it? It's a victimless crime. We're all adults and it's your own body.

Um, possession of a few grams might be victimless...but trafficing 4.1kgs into Indo, it could be argued that there may well be some victims. Hell, Corby's definitely one victim of it!
 
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