Tryptamines The Big & Dandy AMT / αMT Thread - 5th Blast

[Pfafffed]

This is true.

I also hadn’t even thought about certain foods to avoid. How long before dosing AMT do you have to abstain from those foods?

Also, why can’t opioids be mixed? Or caffeine?

I think lamanogaucha is just being extra conservative. I've never heard of anyone needing to observe a strict tyramine exclusion diet for aMT. It was widely enough used for long enough day there would have been many, many deaths if that were the case. Not only was it a recreational drug, it was prescribed for a while as an antidepressant under the name of indopan.

The drug interactions are important to observe, though. Caffeine is not recommended just because of the added stimulation and anxiety it can produce, but it isn't thought to interact directly. Tramadol is a no no, but it always is.

AMT - DrugFacts

drugfacts.org.uk

TripSit Factsheets - αMT

 

[lamanogaucha]

Guys, combining high-tyramine foods and/or drinks with an MAO inhibitor can result in dangerously elevated blood pressure and other issues. Type "tyramine" along with "MAO inhibitor" into any search engine and you'll find plenty of information on the subject. (For ethical reasons, I recommend DuckDuckGo.)

As I said earlier, low or moderate tyramine concentration is fine with an MAO inhibitor, as long as one takes it easy. High tyramine concentration, on the other hand, is no good.

Don't forget that although Indopan (a.k.a. aMT) was prescribed as an anti-depressant in the USSR, doses were typically in the 5mg range. For our purposes, typical doses are anywhere from 20mg to 60mg. Therefore, psychedelic doses yield far more MAO inhibition than therapeutic anti-depressant ones.

Regarding how long should one abstain from high-tyramine items prior to a psychedelic dose of aMT, two or three days suffice in most cases.

 

[Blowmonkey]

I always did all the forbidden stuff like drink, smoke, inhale solvents, etc and got terrible, terrible migraines on the comedown, probably related. Worth every minute of it.

 

[Pfafffed]

Guys, combining high-tyramine foods and/or drinks with an MAO inhibitor can result in dangerously elevated blood pressure and other issues. Type "tyramine" along with "MAO inhibitor" into any search engine and you'll find plenty of information on the subject. (For ethical reasons, I recommend DuckDuckGo.)

You are absolutely right regarding MAO inhibitors. Have you seen any high quality information that suggests that aMT is an MAOi? All the studies I've seen point to it being a reversible inhibitor of monoamine oxidase. RIMAs have a more forgiving safety profile than MAOis. That's why people prescribed moclobemide don't have to adhere to a tyramine-restrictive diet. It's also why syrian rue at doses high enough to make DMT orally active still won't kill you if you eat a sausage with cheese.

RIMAs still pose risks, namely drug interactions. Some of these drugs are fairly common (DXM, for instance) so it's important that people know about them. aMT has killed people who have combined it with cocaine and amphetamine, for instance.

 

[Blowmonkey]

I saw recently on tripsit that the combination of "5-meo-xxx" with amt was described as dangerous, but on what is that based exactly? Maoi interactions as well? Because to me it's almost essential for both of the trips, 5-meo-dmt needs a warm entactogen/psychedelic potentiator to really blast off without any of that dark negative vibe you can get from doing it on it's own, while the psychedelia could be enhanced on a low dose of amt in combination with something else.

I mean, if I'm reading this right all these rats survived and no mention of any dangerous interactions; 5-meo-dmt + maoi.

Behavioral and pharmacokinetic interactions between monoamine oxidase inhibitors and the hallucinogen 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine - PubMed

Monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) are often ingested together with tryptamine hallucinogens, but relatively little is known about the consequences of their combined use. We have shown previously that monoamine oxidase-A (MAO-A) inhibitors alter the locomotor profile of the hallucinogen...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[lamanogaucha]

@ Pfafffed - Although aMT is probably an RIMA (which are a subclass of MAOI's), that hasn't been conclusively proven. Because of that, I believe that it's prudent to err on the side of caution and assume that aMT isn't an RIMA until we have definitive pharmacological data. Besides, even RIMA's require that a user not overdo tyramine ingestion -- there's only so much that an RIMA can work with. In other words, even if aMT was indeed an RIMA, it would be a bad idea to have a pre-trip meal consisting of an appetizer of salami and blue cheese, followed by a main course of liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti, and ended with a dessert of canned figs and a banana peel. No good.

@ Blowmonkey - Tyramine can trigger a migraine on its own; in combination with aMT, this potential increases. Regarding the combination of aMT with other psychedelics, it's advised against because it's a serotonin (along with norepinephrine and dopamine) reuptake inhibitor *and* releaser. Combining aMT with other serotonergic drugs (i.e. nearly all psychedelics) can result in serotonin syndrome. Other folks here can explain this better than me, so hopefully someone with more technical knowledge will chime in.

 

[Pfafffed]

I mean, if I'm reading this right all these rats survived and no mention of any dangerous interactions; 5-meo-dmt + maoi.

Behavioral and pharmacokinetic interactions between monoamine oxidase inhibitors and the hallucinogen 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine - PubMed

Monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) are often ingested together with tryptamine hallucinogens, but relatively little is known about the consequences of their combined use. We have shown previously that monoamine oxidase-A (MAO-A) inhibitors alter the locomotor profile of the hallucinogen...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Well, adverse drug reactions don't usually kill everyone every time. Mixing benzos and alcohol won't kill you until it does, for instance.

IIRC, most of the recorded deaths from 5-MeO-DMT are believed to be from aspiration on vomit, respiratory suppression when combined with alcohol, or combination with an MAOi/RIMA. Tripsit lists combining 5-MeO-DMT with MAOis as dangerous.

Here's a post found elsewhere:

5-MeO-DMT and MAOIs :
Although 5-MeO-DMT is present in some plants used in ayahuasca and in some ayahuasca brews, Erowid has received several reports of very troubling physical reactions in people who have ingested 5-MeO-DMT with MAOI harmala-alkaloids. There appears to be the risk of severe hypertensive symptoms, overheating, serotonin syndrome, etc. It is important to note that the profile of these risks are not fully understood, because the long history of use of brews containing some amount the two in combination.

A case of a 17-year-old male was reported to us in December 2002. He ingested an extract of Syrian Rue and then smoked an unknown (but large) dose of powdered, chemical 5-MeO-DMT. He quickly became non-responsive and fell to the ground, began convulsing (myoclonic jerking), and his sitter called an ambulance for help. He was found to have had a pulse of 180, blood pressure 200/125, and temperature 106.0 F. These levels are dangerously high. He was minimally responsive but became wildly agitated upon stimulation (even just speaking to him). He was treated with diazepam and transferred by helicopter to a Boston area hospital. The patient may have suffered lasting damage to his kidneys and rhabdomyolysis.

In December 2004, we received an unconfirmed report of a death related to the ingestion of 200mg of 5-MeO-DMT with some amount of "yage" and are currently looking for corroboration.

We have also received some reports from groups experimenting with making pharmahuasca using 5-MeO-DMT who have said that they had much higher incidence of bad reactions with 5-MeO-DMT than with N,N-DMT. They discontinued using the 5-MeO-DMT.

In TIHKAL Shulgin mentions reports of adverse effects with large quantities of 5meo+ MAOI's.

5g rue and 30mg 5Meo oral "Recklessness Ending In Hospitalization" http://www.erowid.org/ex...iences/exp.php?ID=55407

4g rue and 8mg 5Meo smoked, the guy has no idea what happened but woke up on the floor covered in vomit http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=2232

 

[Blowmonkey]

Yeah and that's why I even doubt the validity of the claims that amt is a maoi in any way, very weak rima maybe. Just about as much as many other psychedelics.

The only time I ever experienced something like serotonin syndrome in combination with 5-meo-dmt was not on amt, but with dxm. My friend thought it was a fine idea, I had my doubts, I think I was right. Now that definitely felt close to serotonin syndrome, I know what that feels like and it was similar, very shortlived because of the duration though.

Never had a problem combining it with amt. It's not like I ever took amt to a big dosage, or the 5-meo-dmt; you can easily cut the 5-meo-dmt dosage in half, but instead of feeling like something vicious and unsafe, it always felt like it completed eachother.

Not to say everyone shouldn't err on the side of caution, because something anecdotal is certainly no evidence of the contrary, and I won't suggest anyone try something they're not comfortable with doing. But personally, I don't see as much of a problem with it, if it was a true maoi I'd be more weary of combining amt with something like LSD for example, which is deemed "safe".

Maybe a bit off-topic, but oh well. Perhaps if 5-meo-dmt is such a problem I could switch it out with something like dpt, dmt or met as a substitute combination. Not that there is a substitution really, but they seem like good candidates to produce something similar when smoked.

 

[chemicalsynergy]

lamanogaucha
thank you for your wise words, I've been doing regimen including Ginseng to fight "winter blues" ! so if theres a (free)time in my (near)future i have to plan stopping its usage prior the voyage.

little off-topic (too lazy/tired to do topic just for this/another post in other thread): i've been tripping on "life" so intensively lately that I haven't even had the time nor energy to check this forum or any other in that matter. kinda cool, in a happy place atm. but surely theres going to be crash at some point and then some aMT won't do any harm. also I think im on my own "path" for now and don't want to break my flow with any psychedelics neither. have to make due with some alcohol, which strangely i have found has its own - kinda - psychedelic qualities too.

i wish you all great weekend! these informative posts from "oldtimers" make me feel such a newbie (as i am).

 

[Chris Timothy]

You could call alcohol a very, very dirty dissociative. There's some NMDA antagonism hidden in there among the downer effects that could remind one of psychoplastogens (e.g. psychedelics). Not much, but enough to keep me interested at least!

I've binged psychedelics this week, it can indeed get quite draining. Yesterday I felt depleted on the serotonergic front in a way normally only happens with empathogens. But so I totally see how you'd wanna protect a life streak against that.

Good weekend for you as well, mr newb.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

From what I understand, and I believe this is written in TiKHAL, full MAOI effects from aMT require a dose of roughly 150mg. A typical recreational dose is around 20-60mg so it shouldn't be a significant concern. Additionally afaik the MAOI effects of aMT are mild to begin with.

Since there's not much research done on this, except old studies from the 60's when the Russians scripted it, it is best to err on the side of caution of course. But the general consensus when it was readily available as an RC was that you're unlikely to hit any MAOI concerns at normal doses.

 

[Chris Timothy]

It's notably unpleasant to drink on it though. I was around sober people while on it, couldn't have taken that much.. yet a couple of beers and my blood pressure was whack. Not talking medical concern levels, but you can't really ignore it either. I'm surprised that such statement would go against consensus.

 

[Xorkoth]

I enjoy alcohol on AMT actually, moreso than on most psychedelics. AMT has never made me feel all that stimulated, it's more like a relaxed, calm stimulation like MDMA/MDA.

 

[Chris Timothy]

True, it's not very stimulating by itself.. talking purely about interaction, and even then it's not "stimulating" stimulating, just as if heart and veins get uncomfortably pinched.

I suppose the plausible explanation is that I had drunk way more than I remember again.

 

[Xorkoth]

Haha, that's often me, too.

 

[Phobos]

You could call alcohol a very, very dirty dissociative. There's some NMDA antagonism hidden in there among the downer effects that could remind one of psychoplastogens (e.g. psychedelics). Not much, but enough to keep me interested at least!

I've binged psychedelics this week, it can indeed get quite draining. Yesterday I felt depleted on the serotonergic front in a way normally only happens with empathogens. But so I totally see how you'd wanna protect a life streak against that.

Good weekend for you as well, mr newb.

Alcohol is s NMDA negative allosteric modulator, close but not the same.
That's why alcohol plus dissocitives is a tricky combo.
I don't drink, but I've seen people on aMT drink with some being fine and some get overwhelming nausea and vomiting.

 

[Chris Timothy]

^Heh, now you mention it, alcohol is not even said to bind to specific receptors. Just action on the level of ion channels.

This doesn't appear to be common? Only interesting substances I could quickly find that do similar stuff are benzos and racetams.

 

[Blowmonkey]

This is all I read on the supposed maoi effects of amt and aet in tihkal. The second tidbit I snipped out of the extensions and commentary of aet is perhaps the reason it was considered an actual maoi, 30% of the product being related to harmine and all. But Shulgin mentioned a low dose of amt even as something that might work as a "pharmahuasca" in combination with oral dmt, have there been any reports here or elsewhere of someone attempting this btw?

In the 1960's there was quite a bit of interest in a couple of pharmaceutical houses with the indole analogues of amphetamine. Both the alpha-methylated tryptamine (this compound, a-MT) and the alpha-ethylated homologue (a-ET, see its separate recipe) were found to be effective monoamine oxidase inhibitors, and both were clinically studied as potential antidepressants.

There is quite obviously a wide range of reported effect described for a-MT, indicating much individual variability. For some it has a fast onset, for others a slow one. Some find it a good psychedelic, others are disturbed by the negative physical side-effects. This is all a bit reminiscent of harmaline, where the spectrum of responses also range from 1 to 10 on a scale of 1 to 10. Perhaps this is a reflection of the monoamineoxidase inhibition property, and if so, perhaps low levels of a-MT might serve the harmaline role of inhibiting the metabolic destruction of DMT in some form of a pharmahuasca.

Erowid Online Books : "TIHKAL" - #48 a-MT

Entry #48 a-MT from TiHKAL by Alexander & Ann Shulgin.

erowid.org

This base, a-ET or etryptamine, was a promising anti-depressant, explored clinically as the acetate salt by Upjohn under the name of Monase. Its central stimulant activity is probably not due to its monoamineoxidase inhibition activity, but appears to stem from its structural relationship to the indolic psychedelics.

Another compound that has been closely associated with a-ET is a carboline. If a molecule of acetone is brought to react with the amine group and the indolic 2-position, in a condensation that is called a Pictet-Spengler reaction, there would be formed 1,1-dimethyl-3-ethyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-b-carboline. This is a chemical ally of the harmine family of alkaloids, but I have not heard of its having been explored psychedelically. It has been reported to be an impurity of commercial a-ET (including the prescheduling product from the Aldrich Chemical Company) to an extent of some 30%. At these levels, it was suggested that it might play some role in the central action of the parent tryptamine.

Erowid Online Books : "TIHKAL" - #11 a-ET

Entry #11 a-ET from TiHKAL by Alexander & Ann Shulgin.

erowid.org

But then again, I haven't been looking, just did:

Studies of monoamine oxidase and semicarbazide-sensitive amine oxidase. II. Inhibition by alpha-methylated substrate-analogue monoamines, alpha-methyltryptamine, alpha-methylbenzylamine and two enantiomers of alpha-methylbenzylamine - PubMed

The alpha-methylated substrate-analogue monoamines, dl-alpha-methyltryptamine, dl-alpha-methylbenzylamine and two optical isomers of alpha-methylbenzylamine, were shown to be inhibitors of rat lung semicarbazide-sensitive amine oxidase (SSAO), with dl-alpha-methyltryptamine being the most potent...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In vitro monoamine oxidase inhibition potential of alpha-methyltryptamine analog new psychoactive substances for assessing possible toxic risks - PubMed

Tryptamines have emerged as new psychoactive substances (NPS), which are distributed and consumed recreationally without preclinical studies or safety tests. Within the alpha-methylated tryptamines, some of the psychoactive effects of the prototypical alpha-methyltryptamine (AMT) have been...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Severe Serotonin Syndrome in an Autistic New Psychoactive... : Journal of Clinical Psychopharmacology

An abstract is unavailable.

journals.lww.com

Didn't know mxp had serotonin reuptake inhibitory effects, that definitely doesn't sound like a safe combination anymore.

But just as much as it isn't a good idea to take it in combination with a lot of phenetylamines for example, take a look at this article:
Interactions of phenethylamine‐derived psychoactive substances of the 2C‐series with human monoamine oxidases

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onlinelibrary.wiley.com

So I'm still not sure how significant those maoi properties really are in comparison with various other psychedelics. Probably significant enough to be very cautious combining it with other serotonin reuptake inhibitors, like lamanogaucha mentioned already. Abstaining from tyramine containing foods/drinks seems a bit overly cautious to me though.

 

[Bare_head]

Just tried 15mg of amt that was stored in a baggie in a dark place for over 4 years. Still works just as fine

 

[2C-X]

Guys Im about to order some of the new succinate batch. I've always heard that aMT is like MDMA but more visual and psychedelic...so is like MDA/6-APB? how are the visuals? I get crazy color enhancement with mda...