tackling the big issues.... should higher education be user pays only??

[Pseudo G]

which brings me to another point i forgot to make earlier... the government failing to distribute money where needed. Last year the federal governtment gave more money to private schools then state schools.

Firstly I thought this thread was about "higher education" and don't turn this into a private vs public debate. There are other threads for that.

 

[littleone]

oh come on. there is a huge transfer between uni and tafe these days.. people shift backwards and fowards all the time. Nickpicking aside, the point remains that there are not enough skilled australian residents because the government is making education so costly.

 

[littleone]

Firstly I thought this thread was about "higher education" and don't turn this into a private vs public debate. There are other threads for that.

well it links in to the point i was making about government failing prioritize the appropriate areas.

 

[joannie_mhm]

littleone would like me to let the board know that she has not given up the argument, she was simply kicked off the computer.

she'll continue her argument at another time.

ps she's boozed.

 

[muzby]

oh dear.. littleone, i think it is clear from the majority of responses to your arguments that you are fighting a losing battle...

ANOTHER THING! i just finished watching the news and australia is going to have to bring in hundreds of thousands of immigrants because austrlian residents do NOT have the knowledge and skills that are even required by the workforce.

yeah... i watched the same news item.... it was actually about how LAZY australians are and how there are plenty of jobs like trades or fruit picking(?!?!?!) that have to be filled by chinese immigrants...

i'll go out there and do my fruit picking, just as soon as i have secured a full fee paying placement in the bachelor of fruit pickerology at melbourne uni...

skilled = trade-like work
educated = white collar work..

this news item you speak of does not back you up, sorry to say...


so, it would probably clear things up for everyone on the board if you actually came out and stated exactly WHAT your argument is all about...

firstly, you pick on people (such as myself) who used the hecs system to get ourselves through uni... sorry that we all didn't get the silver spoon treatment, but if we wanted an education, we had to pay for it ourselves.. your argument on HECS is that people will only use it to do courses such as law, medicine and engineering.. yet, i did an arts course... and most of the people in my course used HECS... using your argument of greed, wouldnt a free education mean that more people would be choosing the laws, medicine etc etc??

good life tip for you out of that - don't give anyone grief for the way they came through life (school or workwise..) its their life, they have had the struggles, and no-one can be called "wrong" when they are referring to their own life story... unless they have directly hurt someone you know, don't fault people on something you don't know... you will only lose friends as you get older...

so, is your argument for a free university system and you merely dont agree with paying for edcuation at all?? fantastic, i totally agree with you... that would save me a great amount of money that i pay back through tax each year...

but hey, life isn't free....

and this is the situation we are in at the moment.... and it won't be going back to the old way of free education...

a lecturer earns approximately $70 - $150k per year...
tutors can earn between $20k (PT) and $60k (full time)...
add in then the costs of maintenance staff, admin staff and health centres etc...

think of how many of each of these you have at your uni... there is the wage bill alone... add in then building costs, maintenance costs and everything else...

in the greater scheme of things, i'm happy to have paid about $13,000 for my education, god knows, without it, i'd be stuck doing a menial job (but hey, there's fruit picking available!!!) me having paid my HECS doesnt make me a supporter of john howard or anything like that, its economics 1.01..

and please dont come back and try saying i dont know the first thing about the workings of a uni... whilst there, i was part of a student council working with the board of the uni, worked at the student union, a supervisor at residences, organised an open day and used to do the careers fairs around the country (hey, i probably even spoke to you at your school) and believe me, people still want to do arts courses...

there are not enough skilled australian residents because the government is making education so costly

i'm sorry, anyone with half a brain would think for a second... "hmmm... education is so expensive, i'll give up going to uni, and earn $40,000 a year for the rest of my life... " OR "okay, a $10,000 deferred payment that i can pay back in little installments only when i can afford it (after earning $25k) will see me in a career, not just a job..

so, as pseudo g and myself have asked before... provide me with actual facts to back up your argument, and i will consider it valid... at present, it is just a personal opinion which you are trying to force onto others..

and finally...

Originally posted by littleone
Note how Muzby thinks that he is a critical thinker, yet he is reproducing exactly the same arugments that our conservative prime minister has been promoting for the last seven years. The views of the powerful need to be countered. This can only really be done in educational institutions and places where people have time to critically analyse what is going on.

its called experience... nothing to do with power...

but yes, sorry, as you were asking me... i'd like fries with that thanks...

yes, i know (as you posted after this reply of mine) that john howard is powerful... i was refereing to my thoughts being based on experience...

and the fries comment?

well, are you studying arts?

enough said....

 

[anna!]

Okay, in a thread about the importance of education, let's not mock the course choices of the people who are making the effort, eh?

----

The stuff about skilled workers is just a moot point. You don't need a university degree or even a TAFE diploma to be a factory labourer. The two have nothing to do with each other. And I don't really understand what a public vs. private debate has to do with Commonwealth funded uni places either. Very strange argument indeed.

 

[muzby]

^^^ its okay, we did the same course.. (if she's doing arts that it.. )

 

[iamtha1]

What i would be concerned about with FREE education is that proportion of uni students with the drive and motivation to learn would be lower. Uni would become far too "easy". This is already a problem, i feel, with the upper socio-economic denomination, where students finish school and "go to uni", simply becasue it is the done thing. they don't know what they want to do. they just exist there for a few years.

And exist they do. As much as theoretically, free education would be great, in a practical situation I doubt it would ever work.

I believe to continue as a functioning society, there needs to be some levels. Not even speaking from an economical level (read 'Animal Farm' to fully understand how communist theories where everyone is equal fail when put into practice) but as Duckboy said, from a mental level.

If education became free, it would be most likely affect motivation levels for many students. Littleone, I also went to a elite girls school on a scholarship and therefore, my mentality was different from the word go. Although I had a helluva lot of fun as well, at the same time I strived for achievement and success because I knew that if I didnt do well enough at school to get a uni place, I was effectively. going to work at the supermarket for the rest of my life (I used to be a Coles checkout chick :D) Friends of mine had a different set of values because they always had the finance to get to uni, even if they had to 'pay their way in'.

I've seen friends meander away their time at uni doing useless subjects, as they just see it as a continuation of school. Even sadder, one paid her way to get into Law/Commerce and told me the other day that "she's always hated accounting, maths and anything to do with economics"

In summary, although I believe full fee paying is not the way to go = education access to only the rich, in the same way, free education would also not be practical. Both are extremes that result in loss of motivation, willingness to learn and cause negative effects to society. The HECs system I actually believe is doing a good job...