tackling the big issues.... should higher education be user pays only??

[katmeow]

I think if someone is paying Full Fees they will actually give a shit about being there and doing their absolute best, rather than a HECS/HELP student...

That's what I thought until I did my IT course a few years ago through a private college. On the first day, they told us that despite the close to $10k in fees we paid, people would still drop out/not turn up/not study.

Yeah right, I said.

Fast foward 6 months, half of those in my course had failed at least one exam (exams coming in at around $150 a pop to sit), 2 had failed to complete the course.

These were all people who had come from doing IT for their HSC and really should have shat all over me with their results.

*****

When it comes down to it, the level of work a person will put in a uni is directly related to how much they want to be there, not how much they've paid.

While there is a whole lot I could say on this topic, the short answer to me is that there is no way a user pays system should be established for universities in Australia. In the long run it would simply perpetutate the cycle of those with the cash being advantaged in society.

Education lays the foundation for the future of our country... why should a person be denied the opportunity to better themself simply because they can't afford it?

 

[anna!]

Paying mine back will probably take more than half my life. But it's such a tiny percentage of salary that I'd rather do that on a salary five times what I'd be earning without my degree than not pay any back but earn barely enough to send my kids to school. So I don't really mind. I'm just really glad to have the opportunity to study the courses I want to without outlaying huge amounts of money that I don't have. Books are bad enough!

I agree with strumpet as well, re: getting married and having kids. I did a lot of travelling before I got married, so that urge is gone. And once I did get married and have my daughter, I felt more able to make a decision about uni that was the right one for all of our futures. I feel absolutely no doubt about the degrees that I chose to do, whereas the course I was accepted into straight out of school was completely wrong for me. And because of the life experiences I'd had in between, I was able to get accepted into a course that I wouldn't otherwise have been able to because my TER wasn't high enough.

I know that has nothing to do with this thread.

 

[Mary Poppins]

hmmm. tricky one.

the thing is - one one hand i believe that people who have a) the natural ability b) the dedication and perserverance to have achieved well at school should have the luxury to enjoy the education they worked for.

On the other hand - I think saying that wealthy people do not advocate nor recognize the value of education is incredibly naive, especially since in many cases they have reached this status due to many, many years of study and learning [MBA, QC , surgeons et al] and I think, if my son or daughter mucked around at school, but really, really wanted to learn more on a tertiary level then as IF [if i had the money] I would deny them that.

To be honest - I got into the course I wanted [qld op 6 level], with minimal - no work at highschool, and i have continued this trend at uni. I love to learn, but when you are forced to do at least three subjects which have identical content, learning changes into completing assessment to keep bureaucrats happy and to get more money out of me.

*deep breath*

I guess what I'm saying is that I've seen girls from my highschool, who, without touching myself too much, were less academic than i [as in they did a voc ed type course] but who have either upgraded or paid their way into a degree, have done really well, and are now successful.

I guess after all that I haven't really given an answer. To sate the chronically indecisive part gemini of me, I'm going to say that I think the system needs to be reviewed, given the possibility to buy yourself into public uni now, so that money vs. results can be meausured and education distributed more fairly.

 

[Tabernacle]

Trust when i say the richer people are, especially children of rich parents, the dumber and less motivated they are to learn- went to a private school where this pattern was the norm not the exception- which did occur but i put that down to personal intellect not the threat of wasting all their parents precious money! In fact somebody like me whose parents had to work 2 jobs each just to sent me there (a complete waste of money in my opinion- simply not worth it) felt that kind of pressure far more acutely than these uber rich lord snots!

Then these same people finish school and get top priority to the course of their choosing because mummy and daddy are paying for it and people who actually worked hard get stiffed because the federal govt wont put any funding into the future of this country because in their minds they've already gifted that leadership role into the very hands of their most loyal supporters- the rich! It stinks to high heaven i tells ya! Let's emulate America what a wonderful society they have!

On a side note do these rich fucks work while they're at uni? of course not! Do they pay any rent? No again. So i have to work two jobs because of how pitiful youth allowance is (one of which i've just lost because my timetable has changed) to pay rent, food and bills whilst competing against these spoon fed rich and/or international students for marks and you know what i bet i got better marks last year than all those advantaged fuckers (straight H1s). The system is bascially unfair to those who desire to learn and succeed is the greatest people who worked hard in school and uni and didn't get everything handed to them on a silver platter!

 

[anna!]

^ 8)

Trust when i say the richer people are, especially children of rich parents, the dumber and less motivated they are to learn- went to a private school where this pattern was the norm not the exception- which did occur but i put that down to personal intellect not the threat of wasting all their parents precious money! In fact somebody like me whose parents had to work 2 jobs each just to sent me there (a complete waste of money in my opinion- simply not worth it) felt that kind of pressure far more acutely than these uber rich lord snots!

I've included my parents' salaries in another thread - they're rich, I was/am a spoilt rich kid, as are my brother and sister, and we are seriously a bunch of really intellectually motivated people.

- I study two degrees while being a full-time mum and a part-time designer
- My brother works 80-100 hour weeks as a chef's apprentice and is studying a Bachelor of Science part-time
- My sister finished Year 11 last year with straight A+'s is captain of rowing and has been a supervisor at her work since she was 14.
- Mum has two Bachelor degrees (one being Law) and a masters. Dad has three Bachelor degrees, a post-grad diploma and is about to start his masters.

We all went to private school from the age of 5. We are not less motivated to learn.

On a side note do these rich fucks work while they're at uni? of course not! Do they pay any rent? No again. So i have to work two jobs because of how pitiful youth allowance is (one of which i've just lost because my timetable has changed) to pay rent, food and bills whilst competing against these spoon fed rich and/or international students for marks and you know what i bet i got better marks last year than all those advantaged fuckers (straight H1s). The system is bascially unfair to those who desire to learn and succeed is the greatest people who worked hard in school and uni and didn't get everything handed to them on a silver platter!

I work part-time, as I said. I pay my fees, I pay my HECS, I pay my rent, I buy my food. The only "advantage" I have of being a "rich kid" is that my Dad works in the same field as I'm studying, so he's able to help me out with things I don't understand.

I didn't work hard at school, I was a shitty student because I was remarkably lazy. I was disappointed with my TER, but instead of having my parents "buy" me a spot, I deferred my course, worked in the field I was actually interested in for three years (which involved starting my own business as well) and then applied on my own merits.

So, stfu, you stupid idiot.

 

[smileyfish]

Anna, calm down! Your family may just be the exception to the rule

Not all rich kids don't value education, but for a lot of them it is true. A far bigger problem, I think, is the perception these days that you have to go to uni to make something of yourslef. Unis are full of kids (fee-paying and HECS) who have gone straight from school to uni because they think they should, not because they want to study a particular discipline. They are there because it is expected of them and because they think they'll get a better job at the end of it. There were plenty of this time in my degree (science) and I'm fairly confident it's widespread.

These kids aren't at uni for the right reason. As a result, they piss-fart about, skip class, disrupt lectures and often drop out, rich or otherwise.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the gap year. I think more school leavers should look at taking a year or two out of study when they finish school to get familiar with the real world. Find a job, learn to live independently, travel and gain a bit more understanding of where you want to go in life. I believe if gap years were more common, not only would uni drop-out rates decrease, but people would get in more personal growth sooner and that's a good thing!

(sorry it's a litte OT, but my rant about uni fees is in Haste's thread from earlier this year)

 

[Tabernacle]

anna!: jeeze do i have to put a disclaimer saying that this is only my personal opinion and is not in any having a go at anybody. Really i'd expect better from a mod, going to the lowest of lows the personal flame for merely expressing my opinion- i've you don't like it fine, express it, but dont tell me to shut the fuck up (that's really quite immature for a person who should know better)
Like i said there are exceptions to the rule- but as you went to a private school you'd know that most rich kids really don't value education because they can't see the point of it- why work really hard when you're already rich!
btw it seems like your closer to my situation than the moronic blue bloods i'm speaking about
dont take it so personally!

 

[Mary Poppins]

i can see why anna resorted to that level personally tabernacle...

i went to a very elite private school [on a scholarship] and i'd say that most of the people there - though exceedingly wealthy - also wanted to learn and valued an education...

education and working hard are mutually exclusive - you can work hard and still be uneducated, and you can do nothing and be incredibly educated -

learning seperates the two - and i for one do not agree with your assertion that money renders people unwilling to learn...

 

[nickthecheese]

Burn the governement. Twice. Education should be free for all people on this earth. why shouldn't it ? Give me one good reason why it should not, barring economic rationalism cause that serves no one but the upper class. Personally i'd much rather pay higher tax and know that kids were being educated and had opportunities than being locked up in detention centers and the money spent on missiles that can shoot 450kms out to sea...

Hon Joward got his degrees for FREE now he is CHARGING US for OURS??! Sound fair? Thanks Johnny! Thanks anna, for voting liberal! </Sar-Chasm>

I think the whole money vs learning thing comes from the knowledge of the rich kids that if they fuckup/fail whatever that they may have a "bail card" in the form of a fat cash injection from mum & dad. WOAH CHILL, I SAID SOME, NOT ALL. There are exceptions to the rule, I'm just yet to find some.

 

[onetwothreefour]

i've only read this page of the thread, but i agree wholeheartedly with the lovely cheesy nick.

i had this debate recently with my rather fascist (but still, barely, labor-voting) friend. he says that it shouldn't be free because HIGHER education is something which should be earnt.

effectively he says that anybody who really wants to learn can get a job and earn the cash to put themselves through uni if they try hard enough. technically he's correct.

but my two-fold argument is this: firstly, the country as a whole will benefit hugely from having a more educated population (remember those previous arguments about the educated elite meaning that we no longer have any labourers are fairly redundant in light of the automation of these industries), because all it does is help smooth out the process of democracy. it also increases our ability to export national product (whether that be science and inventions, art and 'culture', or actual *people*), which is good for the economy, world image, and national morale. the thing is, the liberals don't want to increase tertiary education numbers, because the more educated the public, the less they'll vote for them. it's obvious and sad.

secondly: the better educated the public is, the more interesting, varied, forward-thinking the world will become. that's an easy one, it's obvious, and it's true.

i am drunk

 

[Pseudo G]

Nothing in life is free, why should education be any different?

Sure, the idea of having a highly educated population is attractive but someone has to foot the bill. Why shouldn't the people getting an education contribute to paying for it, as opposed to everyone having to pay for it, some who never partook of it in the first place?

And as for having HECS debts forever. If you earn in high enough bracket to have HECS taken out, but not a high enough bracket for the % to be significant and you make no voluntary contributions. Sure your HECS debt will be around for yonks thanks to CPI. But if you use the wages you are earning to pay off some of your debt along with the added 10% it's not nearly as bad. I figure I can pay mine all off in 3, 4 years tops.

Your education is free, until you start earning a wage. A wage quite possibly due to your education in the first place, at that point you start paying it back. Compared to other places, I reckon it's a reasonably fair realistic solution.

 

[littleone]

Pseudo G, education should be free because education is a communal good. Having an educated population benefits everbody (excepting perhaps the dogmatic conservatives), not just the individual.

Educating people should be about trying to create a better society, not just a greedier society which in my opinion, is what hecs will result in. Hecs forces people to think of education as a mereley a method to gain earning power. It is causing the arts and the humanities to become increasingly ignored, and people to choose courses simply based on greed.

Even buisnesses depend on trust and decency and these are being threatened by excessive individualism. People who just care about themselves and their earnings. People who think that just because they paid for their education they have a right to it, and people who cant pay, dont have.

I cant see any benifit in hecs.. i simply think it will make our generation money hungry and less cultured.

 

[muzby]

Hecs forces people to think of education as a mereley a method to gain earning power. It is causing the arts and the humanities to become increasingly ignored, and people to choose courses simply based on greed.

umm... no...

having come from a really fucked up family situation, i have been self sufficient since i was 18... and i had to put myself through uni <insert sob story about working 4 jobs etc here> (thats true btw )

so HECS did not "force me to think of education as a mereley a method to gain earning power". HECS to me enabled me to study and gain an education, and most of all, meet some really great friends...

i didn't choose a course based on greed.. i actually did an arts course.. a media studies course... plus a sports marketing course... which, for those who work in sports would know, would not put me on the path to fame and fortune, but provided me with the working knowledge to start a career, so i could do a job that was actually making a difference to people, and so i didn't have to keep doing jobs like being a builders labourer...

HECS allowed me to utilise my brain.. to think... to live...

I cant see any benifit in hecs.. i simply think it will make our generation money hungry and less cultured.

if anything, HECS provided me with uni life, and as such, turned me from a rubgy playing, meatheaded booner, into the person i am today.. a lot more caring, and a LOT more cultured....

 

[Mary Poppins]

I cant see any benifit in hecs.. i simply think it will make our generation money hungry and less cultured.

littleone - hecs has been around since what...the late 80's?? so effectively, there have already been generations who should have experienced these adverse effects you listed.

It's all very nice to have ideals and if a free education was plausible then it would be all very lovely...but it isn't. Education costs. It costs in wages, facilities, advertising, materials and in time.

Yes, many of our parents would have got a free education, but I believe that that was not indicative of Australia being in a "better" economic situation then - rather that we have now faced the fact that you cannot keep doling something out which causes such a drain on the economy - for nothing.

I know I'm really jealous that I will have to pay back HECS - of course I'm sure everyone in an individual sense would prefer to not have to pay for an education - but it's just a fact of life.

In a utopian society - a free education would be fantastic - and yes I agree with you that the more educated society as a whole is, the better it is for everyone. But it is not to be, so the thing to do is stop hanging on to wistful thought about free education, but to move on and find the most effective way of ensuring the largest number of deserving people, get the education they want.

 

[littleone]

Muzby, the fact that you are actually engaging in this discussion does make you different, how many laywers, engineers, doctors etc would actually be concerned enough to talk about this topic.

However you are basing your argument on your individual experience. The fact you did an arts degree does not change the fact that many others are abandoning the arts and humanities.

Are you trying to convince me that that free education would not have benifited you more?

You have interesting ideas, but you are wrong.

 

[muzby]

Muzby, the fact that you are actually engaging in this discussion does make you different, how many laywers, engineers, doctors etc would actually be concerned enough to talk about this topic.

i have a number of friends who are lawyers, doctors and engineers (some who even post on this board...) and comment on this issue....

based on your argument, you are saying that doctors, lawyers and engineers ONLY did their course to earn money... can i just say, that if money was the be-all and end all, i acutally earn a lot more money that a lot of my engineer friends... i've gotten that based on my work ethic, merit and interpersonal skills..

However you are basing your argument on your individual experience. The fact you did an arts degree does not change the fact that many others are abandoning the arts and humanities.

not to earn more money, simply because in these fields, you tend to learn more through hands on experience rather than theory.. i spent a whole semester learning about the ancient olympic games... i'm sorry, but how does that help me to organise an events ceremony for a sports carnival?

Are you trying to convince me that that free education would not have benifited you more?

not at all. but you are stating that HECS leads to greed. based on your statements, wouldnt a free path to becoming a doctor make someone even greedier? if you didnt have to pay for the degree, yet got to get one of these jobs, wouldnt everyone be wanting to do them??

You have interesting ideas, but you are wrong.

based on what facts..... your generalisations??? 8)

 

[Pseudo G]

You have to change the generation seeking education before you can change the education system. Generation Y treats and demands education as a commodity that can be bought and sold. There's a fair bit of research about it.

littleone, I'm sure there are quite a number of people that start degrees based on what wages they could earn with that particular degree. But I'd bet all my belongings that the majority of people who graduate from a degree did it because it was in a field that they were interested in. Have you ever tried doing something that really doesn't interest you for an hour? Not many people can do something they are really not interested in for 3 to 4 years and then as a career regardless of the money.

 

[littleone]

Pesudo G:
It is socialisation and education that changes peoples way of thinking rather then the other way around. It is because education has been treated like a purchasable commodity for so long that has allowed generation Y to percieve it as such. Even the educators themselves haven't responded sufficently to this.

If education was treated with more respect, as a value to the whole community, by government especially, then it would have a more valued place in the society of generation Y. This can only be done by promoting education.

Note how Muzby thinks that he is a critical thinker, yet he is reproducing exactly the same arugments that our conservative prime minister has been promoting for the last seven years. The views of the powerful need to be countered. This can only really be done in educational institutions and places where people have time to critically analyse what is going on.

As for the majority of students choosing subjects based on earnings.. Winston Churchill once said.. "if you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will shortly follow"


Muzby and Mary.. I'll respond to your arugments when i get home from uni

 

[muzby]

Note how Muzby thinks that he is a critical thinker, yet he is reproducing exactly the same arugments that our conservative prime minister has been promoting for the last seven years. The views of the powerful need to be countered. This can only really be done in educational institutions and places where people have time to critically analyse what is going on.

its called experience... nothing to do with power...

but yes, sorry, as you were asking me... i'd like fries with that thanks...

 

[Duckboy]

Originally posted by littleone
Muzby, the fact that you are actually engaging in this discussion does make you different, how many laywers, engineers, doctors etc would actually be concerned enough to talk about this topic.

*Bite*


I think you might be surprised at how many "professionals" are on this board, Littleone

I'm assuming by generalising about "laywers, doctors, engineers" you mean white collar workers whom society perceives as earning lots of dollars??? THat money is a major decider in what courses people select? And in choosing to go to uni ingeneral??
For starters - I'd be infinately better off, financially, i think, if i had left school at 16 and taken up a trade.
My friends who are tradeys are coming up to 30 and all are sitting pretty. Yes, they are all very good at what they do, and have sound business minds to back up their practical skill. And a lot of them are going into tertiary study. Why? - because they want to learn. not for the money, or the prestige.

I'll use medicine as an example becasue let's face it, the vast majority of people will stereotype a med student.
The breakdown - about 70% of students have mum/dad pay their uni fees up front. maybe a quarter of them worked during uni (i remove working summer months for your dad etc etc)
And around 30% are using HECS to get into uni.
Of that 30%, I'd say most of them were working between casual/part time to survive whilst studying.

Me - HECS, multiple jobs. Without HECS there is no way i would have been at uni.

Do i think education should be free - no. I won't give the "who will pay for it" approach, but rather say this - i feel HECS provides you with an education opportunity. It is a burden once you start working, but it IS affordable and doesn't debilitate your earnings, really.

What i would be concerned about with FREE education is that proportion of uni students with the drive and motivation to learn would be lower. Uni would become far too "easy". This is already a problem, i feel, with the upper socio-economic denomination, where students finish school and "go to uni", simply becasue it is the done thing. they don't know what they want to do. they just exist there for a few years.



my parents didn't finish high school. they were shocked when i told them i was enrolling in university. dad just figured i'd be an electrician, as i loved playing with electonics



With regard to our generation being "less cultured - i strongly doubt that this is true. Look at the students when university was free. look at where they are now. Are they any better for it? Is society any better for it??




I'll come up with some constructive arguments (that haven't been drummed up before by "conservative politicians") when i'm not at work and have a chance to think

Originally posted by muzby

but yes, sorry, as you were asking me... i'd like fries with that thanks...

Touche.