tackling the big issues.... should higher education be user pays only??

[muzby]

part III of the muzby gets serious trillogy.... once again, not my personal views.. so no flaming me..

but, higher education.. university.... at present, you have three ways to pay for it.. directly, with UAI, via HECS, still with your UAI and finally, full fee paying, where your UAI/school marks count for diddly squat, you pay a huge fee (close to $100k in most cases..) and you get preference over a school leaver...

so, firstly, for school students, should the fact that you have no money, but did well at school grant you access to taxpayer subsidised study? (cause even if you pay upfront, the taxpayer is still funding your education..)

why shouldnt a full fee paying student get preference over you? afterall, its something that they are so sure that they want that they will forego a huge sum of money to guarantee a place... this is the type of student who will knuckle down and study, not pissfart around spending too much time partying and possibly drop out..

plus, how many people study a certain field, then never end up practicing what they learned?? (hey, i'm one of them..)

so, if we were to move away from the taxpayer funded system and move to full fee paying (like the usa) would this have an effect on the education levels of society? would less people go to uni? or would it mean that we would only have dedicated students at uni, therefore producing better quality candidates?

now, i know that most of you who have been to uni or are at uni would not have been full fee paying, so could possibly be against it for that fact alone, but, like mitsubishi, i say please consider.... think of all your friends who have dropped out... they are costing money, and its pretty clear that universities are starting to struggle with finances, and are having to cut back left right and centre...

so... what are thoughts??

 

[MoeBro]

Fuck no.
You shouldn't have the ability to pay your way into higher education.
If these said students wanted to work for their place, they would have done it in year 12, not slacked off and then realised they fucked up, only to let mummy and daddy's money pave their way in.

I also refuse to believe that a Full Fee student is that much more dedicated than a HECS/HELP student.

 

[littleone]

Evidently you think that every value in society is reducable to money paid and that the amount paid means the same thing to everyone.

So Paris Hilton would work really hard if she was charged money? does the fact that low to middle income student have already worked hard to get their university entrance scores means nothing?

My opinion is that the most of the wealthy have no understanding that education is good for society. To them it is only a way of achieving more earning power. That in itself is the reason that we have people advocating increased uni costs, because so few have been educated about the value of more people in society understnding about social infrastructure, knowledge, art, literature etc.

Evidently it is of no consequence as we want to charge for education and force more students to rush into the high paying professions so that they can pay of their study debts.

In time when the division between the rich educated population and the poor uneducated population is growing rapidly, and no one knows anything about importance of truth in government or the health and welfare of the population, it is my opinion that the only result from hecs and the like.. will be a greater divide in society.

 

[keystroke]

I think if someone is paying Full Fees they will actually give a shit about being there and doing their absolute best, rather than a HECS/HELP student...

 

[friskk]

I believe all students should pay for their education. I think university fees should be standardised across the board.

I believe that each student should pay a sum of money depending on the potential earning value. If an individual will earn 100k+ a few years after leaving uni, then why not pay for it.

I think there should be a minimum requirement and if people failed to make that minimum then no amount of money should allow you in!

 

[kandyraverchick]

It depends what feild we're talking... social work, for example - shouldn't really matter. I know the enter is about 80 (due mostly to popularity)- in studies someone who completed a degree in social work generally takes on no extra work to someone who completes a diploma in social welfare. I can't remember the source - I do remember the study confirmed this though. If you can get into the diploma with completion of year 12 (preferable), work experience or references from sources associated with the field - sure, you should be able to pay to do a degree in social work (although you can go on to do the degree in a substituted time frame). The job description is pretty much exactly the same thing. Department of human services (for example) will employ a range of people for the same job with the same pay, from either of those two education backgrounds or from a psychology background.

In some area's of study - especially courses that need an enter of above the 90 range, I think we should leave to the highly intelligent people - unless they were extremely close anyhow.

At the same time though, we can't have people who aren't capable of the job going through just because they were born with a silver spoon in their mouth. People who studied really hard for years and years would be missing out. There's no justice in that!

 

[gher]

I think if someone is paying Full Fees they will actually give a shit about being there and doing their absolute best, rather than a HECS/HELP student...

Yes, if the person paying the bill is the person studying, not their children. Doubly so if they're from abroad.

The reality is international studies has a lot of rich Honky kids who gamble, party, pissfart around and live in the city, all paid for by their folks. I'm glad I don't take international studies.

 

[muzby]

My opinion is that the most of the wealthy have no understanding that education is good for society. To them it is only a way of achieving more earning power.

wow.. okay, dont take this personally, but that is quite an unhealthy attitude to take towards life... fyi, one of the things i would do if i won the lottery was send myself back to uni for the rest of my life.... i love learning new things...

you have commented that you think of me that

Evidently you think that every value in society is reducable to money paid and that the amount paid means the same thing to everyone

so straight away you have contraticted yourself by saying that money doesnt mean the same thing to everyone, yet said that the rich cannot understand values of society...

a lot of people are keen to learn, be they rich or poor...

at the end of the day, its all about how much you want it..... you either pay for it with cash or pay for it through dedication and study....

 

[littleone]

so straight away you have contraticted yourself by saying that money doesnt mean the same thing to everyone, yet said that the rich cannot understand values of society...

sorry that doesnt make any sense.

and recognising the need for social infastructure is healthy. and why do you think australia has previously been a peaceful safe and rewarding society? because up until now there has been investment in society and people.

and i have this attitude from first hand experience.
note: appart from your desire to get educated, increasingly students are ignoring the humanities and even some science's and selecting for courses based on their earning capacity. its a fact.

 

[TReNDY]

I have just started uni this year part time using HECS and working full time. Unfortunately being a mature age student I have rent/bills/car etc to pay and there is NO WAY that I could afford to pay full fees.......

I want to be in uni more than anything, I have tried to get in for the last 4 years and now that Im in I am going to work my ass off.

I dont think that full fee paying students would work any harder than a HECS student, it ultimately depends how much you want it.
"a lot of people are keen to learn, be they rich or poor..."<-- thats right, so everyone should have the opportunity, not just the people who are still living at home with mummy and daddy and only have to work at their part time job 2 days a week to buy a new clothes and have money to waste.

 

[lostpunk5545]

I think all education should be free. Whitlam style...

"But seriously though, if Australia has had so much GDP growth from 1974 to 2004, why is that we could afford to give free uni education in the 1970s, but now the government has to soak the poor students for cash? Where is all that GDP growth going to? Someone is getting the benefit of GDP growth and it isn't the students, that's for sure!"

And I'll answer this rhetorical question. The GDP growth is going straight into the pockets of fat (Metaphorically speaking) rich cunts, it's going into missiles, bullets, and military wages, and it's going into locking refugeees up.

Quote from
here: Not an extremely informative site, just one persons opinion.

 

[strumpet]

This topic is WAY too complicated to ask a simple question to.

My experience is that most school leavers (including myself at that point) have no idea what they want to do with their lives. If they are lucky enough to pick the subject they'll love straight away with no regrets, no breaks for 'time off' that set them back, then I think they are too nerdy/narrow minded/lucky?? (sorry, I'm probably offending a bunch of 20 year olds) then Whooo hoooo. the commonwealth wasted no money on them!!

Me? I picked the WRONG THING. Gee, yea. Not that I didn't try. Wasn't smart, but SHIT who the hell knows what degree they want to do in their late teens/early twenties????

I think fee based places should be available in private universities. in commonwealth supported ones (ie HECS based institutions - I know the institution isn't HECS based - but there's a majority of the population there on that scheme) there should be no opportunities until you are 25 for a commonwealth supported place.

I speak from experience. I'm never 100% right, but I know what I feel about something. I'm sure people have millions of reasons to prove me wrong.

 

[TReNDY]

^^^ Most degrees are at LEAST 3 years long..... people will be into their 30's and still in school, wheres the time for a house/marraige/travel/children?
My fear is that I wont get time for it all........ and I will be finished in my late 20's!

 

[lostpunk5545]

If Howard was smart he would make economics courses free. That way he would have a nation of liberal voters.

Gough Whitlam laments demise of health and education

The World Today - Friday, 14 November , 2003 12:44:01

Reporter: Jo Mazzocchi

HAMISH ROBERTSON: While the ALP may be quietly imploding over the issue of who should receive tax relief, former Labor Prime Minister, Gough Whitlam has also been speaking out.

But Gough Whitlam didn't discuss the issue of tax relief or the election of Carmen Lawrence as ALP president. Instead, he addressed the twin issues of free education and free health care and lamented the demise of both.

Jo Mazzocchi's report begins with Gough Whitlam addressing the issue of his own immortality.

GOUGH WHITLAM: Now, one scientific qualification that I have in greater measure than other professional people is I'm an etymologist, so I pointed out that I was not immortal, but I might well be eternal.

JO MAZZOCCHI: It was vintage Gough Whitlam as he worked a crowd of regional councillors on his home turf of Western Sydney.

GOUGH WHITLAM: In this distinguished gathering, I reject as blasphemy the assertion that my time is being extended on earth because a supreme being would not want the competition. My belief is that he'd enjoy my company.

JO MAZZOCCHI: The event celebrated the 30th anniversary of the Western Sydney Regional Organisation of Councils, an organisation he helped form.

GOUGH WHITLAM: Men and women of western Sydney, it's appropriate, you apparently believe, that Australia's oldest surviving Prime Minister should make the concluding remarks in Australia's oldest surviving Government House. I hope the building's foundations are a bit more substantial than mine.

JO MAZZOCCHO: Gough Whitlam spoke at length about his own government's achievements, including free tertiary education for all Australians. Last night he lamented the demise of some of the social programs his government set up thirty years ago.

GOUGH WHITLAM: An education system where student selection is based on credit capacity and not merit capacity and where graduating students are no longer indebted to the nation, but increasingly indebted to the Australian Taxation Office – that's no way to improve the quality of education.

JO MAZZOCCHI: And this on health care:

GOUGH WHITLAM: The crisis in our hospitals, caused by the dilution of the universality enshrined in Medibank and Medicare, and the buck passing of responsibility and costs between State and Federal Governments brings back disadvantage.

WESROC's (Western Suburbs Regional Organisation of Councils) thirty years have been distinguished by campaigning against disadvantage and becoming Australia's leading example of the advantages of regional co-operation. We commemorate WESROC's achievements and we wish it many happy returns.

HAMISH ROBERTSON: Some vintage Gough Whitlam there, that report by Jo Mazzocchi


Source

 

[preacha]

just in case none of you knew, hilary duff goes to harvard and kate bosworth goes to princeton

two of the more intellectually deficient actresses in hollywood today at two top ivy league schools

 

[strumpet]

^^^ Most degrees are at LEAST 3 years long..... people will be into their 30's and still in school, wheres the time for a house/marraige/travel/children?
My fear is that I wont get time for it all........ and I will be finished in my late 20's!

my advice ... from experience is do that FIRST. I have kids, am happily married, etc. It is only NOW (granted I'm 34 ooops I mean 30 ...) that I know what i want to do intellectually.

I know I will have feminists stepping all over me here, but to me it seems obvious. Women in their twenties are struggling with HORMONES. They can suppress them, ignore them, whatever they want to do, but they are, (if they ever occur -- face it some women never want babies [which is ok]) but the fact is they will be struggling with the career vs nesting thing.

If you have babies first, your hormones and body are satisfied, and your intellect has years to mature.

I realize this is true of MY experience. Which is considerable. and is not the prevailing opinion,

BUT once in a while, if a lost soul agrees with my controversial opinions, a PM wouldn't go amiss.

 

[Pseudo G]

This is a tough topic.

I believe that everyone deserving of an education should have access to one. But I also believe that if you as a parent have worked hard to have a reasonable amount of wealth behind you, you should be able to assist your children in getting a good education even if they are...'lacking' in certain areas.

So I believe there is room for both HECS places and full up front fee paying students. Obviously there should be cut offs for the full fee paying students in terms of entry exam marks and the fees they pay should be proportionate to how much they missed the cut of for. i.e, if you missed the mark by a bit, you pay a bit. If you missed the mark a lot, you pay a lot (to a cut off point).

As for motivation. If depends more on the individual rather than the method they entered uni. Someone having their fees paid for them could easily piss away their time as someone who pays the fees themselves.

I believe the system of enrolments should be moulded more like the entry to medicine here in WA (dunno if its the same Aus wide). But the students both need to pass an academic cut off as well as sit a test that involves 'non academic smarts'. This eliminates people doing courses and entering professions that they may be capable of doing, but are obviously not suited at doing.

In terms of cut offs, they should remain high for highly popular courses. For example, speech and hearing science in WA is a highly popular course, with limited employment opportunities but has a cut off close to the 98 percentile. If you flood the employment market with a particular qualification, it devalues that qualification. We have seen it before with year 12 graduation.

I would prefer not to see university to become the sole place of the rich and the smart poor on scholarships.

I think the bigger problem are the professional students that enjoy the university life style and stay there for years and years and years. Doing course after course after course. I personally know people have done PhDs in chemistry simply cause they would not be able to get a job in the chemistry field while using various illicit substances and are not prepared to stop.

Now I have no problem with people that love to learn and have a thirst for knowledge, but the requirements for these people to continue with degree after degree should be increased to reflect their apparent love for learning. I.e instead of a pass mark being 50% it should be gradually increased. In this way the people who love learning and put everything into it can continue their journey of knowledge acquisition and the professional students will be weeded out, forced to join society and fund a place for a student that they occupied for so many years.

Apart from that, I don't have anything to say on the subject

 

[doofqueen]

I'm pretty sure this topic has already ben tackled in social so all i have to say is everyone has a right to a free eucation if they want to better themselves.

Also though top marks should get preference to full paying students.

 

[anna!]

I absolutely believe that Commonwealth supported places should be available to anyone with the desire to take them. It would be horrible to force people into a rut of "well, I can't afford to go and become more educated, so I can't earn more money to be able to afford to become more educated". It doesn't make any sense, the country would be bound to miss out on great brains that happen to have little money.

 

[lostpunk5545]

^ Or you have people like me who in a stupid irrational 18 year old protest refuse to go to uni on the grounds that paying the (HECS) money back for your degree is going to take half your life...