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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

Opioids Smoking tar on top of suboxone question

S

Shant

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Aug 28, 2019
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301
Hey all. So I’ve been on suboxone for 3 years, buy appx once a month I relapse for several days then go back to the subs. But I continue to take 3mg of subs every day, whether I use dope or not. I think it’s called the Burnese method. By continuing to take the subs, sure I don’t feel the dope as much but if I decide to induct back to suboxone with ZERO PWD. Induction day used to be nightmarish. Now it’s nothing. But the bad thing about it is it makes it so easy to justify buying a half gram.

Sorry for all the background, I felt it too relevant to keep out. This is my question. If I’m on, say, 6mg of suboxone, I smoke .2g (a dub) of tar. I believe at least 90% was blocked. Does this mean that I can induct subs now without PWD? Say I wait 6 hours before inducting. What I’m getting at is this: if the heroin can’t bind to any receptors, where do they go? Will they still be capable of causing PWD even though the subs blocked it?

Thanks friends, I hope that wasn’t too long winded...

- Shant
 
Hey Shant. It's pretty hard to predict something like this. I frequently tell people that the way they feel is the most important indication of when you should induct. I think using both time and how you feel together is a pretty effective strategy against precipitated withdrawal. If you think you're sufficiently sick, than I would start off with a relatively small dose of Buprenorphine and see how that treats you as opposed to your usual 3mg.
 
I’ve got induction down to a science. It’s so simple people would be shocked. Forget PWDs, it’s maybe a. 1/10. Slight anxiety, that’s about it. Half the time I literally can’t feel the suboxone when it kicks in.

What I’m wondering is very specific. If an opioid molecule never binds to a receptor, what happens to it then? Can it still be capable interacting (in a negative way, ie pwds) with the suboxone? Or does it get flushed out of your system and becomes a non factor?
 
Well the heroin will still be in your bloodstream but if you've been on subs this whole time, most if it shouldn't have stimulated the receptors. So no I don't think the portion of the heroin that wasn't experienced by you, will affect PWD... if that is what you are asking.

Keif brings up a good point, these things are really hard to predict. I once thought I had the old switcharoo figured out and had done it probably a dozen times with only small WD effects. Then one time I pushed it just a little too far and had the most nightmarish withdrawal symptoms of my life. If you make a routine out of this, you may find yourself with less and less wiggle room as time goes on.
 
I’ve got it pretty dialed in, that’s the problem. It’s too easy now. I was told my technique is called the Burnese Method, but I never looked into it. Physical addiction/withdrawal isn’t even a factor anymore, it’s all psychological. But I’m not foolish enough not to heed your warning and get too comfortable with this. Hell I need to just stop doing it. If I bump my dose to 16mg my trick wouldn’t work. Maybe that’s the answer...

Also: “So no I don't think the portion of the heroin that wasn't experienced by you, will affect PWD... if that is what you are asking.”

Yes, that was precisely what I was getting at. Thanks for that. So the opiate remains in the bloodstream, but as long as itheyre not in the brain anymore it shouldn’t be a factor, right? So the question is this: where does the opiate go after that? They wouldn’t get another chance to get to the brain again, would they?
 
Well it will just circulate for a while and then be removed by your urine after xxx hours. It can still fill receptors later on, if it gets the chance. But suboxone has an extremely long half life so I dont think that would be likely to happen in a significant way but I guess that would depend on how long it had been since you took it.

This is a problem with narcan. It only last 30 - 60 minutes so if you took a large dose of a long lasting opioid you could still overdose a second time once the narcan wears off, even if you haven't used anymore of whatever else you were using.
 
Pickledlemons said:
Well it will just circulate for a while and then be removed by your urine after xxx hours. It can still fill receptors later on, if it gets the chance. But suboxone has an extremely long half life so I dont think that would be likely to happen in a significant way but I guess that would depend on how long it had been since you took it.

This is a problem with narcan. It only last 30 - 60 minutes so if you took a large dose of a long lasting opioid you could still overdose a second time once the narcan wears off, even if you haven't used anymore of whatever else you were using.
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Very interesting point, never considered that. I imagine it would take one helluva fentanyl shot to still kill you after a narcan dose. Sure fentanyl’s got a low half life but it’s plenty longer than 30 to 60 min.

On the opiate in the bloodstream question, they would in fact get another crack at finding a receptor to bind with? I agree with you that even if they could it probably wouldn’t be an issue because the bupe will still be going strong. I just wanna pin this down.
 
Yeah I mean I imagine every single heartbeat is another opportunity for whatever drugs are in your bloodstream, to pass the bbb and fill any available receptor sites, before they are metabolized and eliminated from your system. The question is going to be, how many of those sites are going to be blocked by bupe, which has the longer half life and higher binding affinity.
 
So how long does it get to circulate before it’s metabolized? How many cracks will it get at those receptor sites? I realize that will vary from drug to drug but there must be a general range
 
How long before heroin is metabolized? Depends on the person. If you were not on suboxone and you took heroin how long would the effects last? There's your answer. I mean it would take quite a long time (several days) before 100% to be eliminated from your body but by then the amounts are so miniscule its negligible. You can look up the half lives of drugs to find out how long it takes (on average) for half the drug to be secreted. You might be confused if you looked up the half life for heroin to find its only 2 - 4 minutes. Thats because its not actually the heroin but its metabolites like morphine and 6MAM which produce the high. So look up the half lives of those drugs if you are interested.

As for exactly how much is going to get through I cant really answer that. Its going to depend on when you took the sub, when you took the heroin. how much of each you took. Its going to depend on your individual biology. Its going to depend on your tolerance.
 
Sorry I know I’m beating this to death. Gotta give it one more go. Ok so say heroin’s half life is 4 hours, and say it takes 8 hours to be metabolized (I’m sure it’s probably longer than that but let’s just say 8). How many passes will it make through the brain in those 8 hours? I guess what I’m asking is how long is one full cycle from 1st pass through the brain to the 2nd pass.
 
Pretty sure thats going to depend on individual biology. I dont think there is any real way to answer that without testing (in re BBB passes)

What you are doing is NOT the Bernese method. Bernese method is a method of induction where you slowly taper heroin use while increases sub use over the course of days. The idea is to not have to go thru any wds at all and avoid pwds. The subs slowly but surely occupy and out compete the heroin until all receptors are full of sub.

I thought I had it down to a science too and then local dealers started selling fent-dope or RC chem dope and had hellish withdrawals and ended up off subs altogether and back to active addiction. Be careful.
 
Ah well that’s even better, so I can call it MY method. ;) But that’s pretty close to what I do actually. 3mg/day of suboxone for 2 days. Half a gram of tar on those days (smoked all at once in the AM...no point in doing a little all throughout the day). On day 3, take the sub, stop the dope. Good to go. No withdrawals whatsoever. I mean nothing at all.

But you’re right, fentanyl does change everything (it’s happened). This only works with heroin. But truth be told, even if it’s fentanyl, if you stay under half a gram the PWD won’t be anything major. Nothing a benzo or some gabapentin can’t handle.
 
HatingThisLife said:
Pretty sure thats going to depend on individual biology. I dont think there is any real way to answer that without testing (in re BBB passes)

What you are doing is NOT the Bernese method. Bernese method is a method of induction where you slowly taper heroin use while increases sub use over the course of days. The idea is to not have to go thru any wds at all and avoid pwds. The subs slowly but surely occupy and out compete the heroin until all receptors are full of sub.

I thought I had it down to a science too and then local dealers started selling fent-dope or RC chem dope and had hellish withdrawals and ended up off subs altogether and back to active addiction. Be careful.
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The exact same thing happened to me two weeks ago! I'm about to try again by waiting longer before I start sub and taking a smaller dose. I feel so defeated by this shit. I appreciate you sharing your experience with fent dope. I'm probably doing the same shit.
 
Bernese method means that you gradually increase the amount of bupe while decreaae the opioid used similaly Day by Day. After certain Time you have dropped The dope completely and only need buprenorhine from that point on. Evidence shows that for mist people this might Be The least agonizing way transitioning from a full agonist to buprenorhine.

What you are doing IS just idiotic, doesn't get toi high and you're wasting your money. The buprenorhine blocks The effect of Heroin. Either use one or the other, not both.

And you also have to wait 48h after last dose for IT to Be enjoyable.

If you Even manage to get effects from tar it's pure Placebo. You are still taking bupe eberyday. Stop The bupe and feel what's Heroin is supposes to feel (obviously you dont remember or your want to feel IS so owepowering you Live in an imageneryland)

I shot 100mg very good quality dope 24h after taking 16mg sublingually. I watched My friends nod out on left and right and it did nothing to me. You dont seem to have a good grasp on how these drugs work. I suggest some BASIC pharmalogy reading.
 
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Suicideblonde215 said:
The exact same thing happened to me two weeks ago! I'm about to try again by waiting longer before I start sub and taking a smaller dose. I feel so defeated by this shit. I appreciate you sharing your experience with fent dope. I'm probably doing the same shit.
Click to expand...
Be very very careful bc from reading other posts here and my own experience, even 3 full days wasn't long enough. These RC fentalogues seem to really linger on receptors even tho the half life is short af. And it also seems like you can't even do the Bernese method with them bc their binding affinity is so strong that it's much stronger than the bupe binding affinity which is insane. From my experience and reading others, I'm pretty sure the bupe is barely building up and you're gonna go thru some discomfort no matter what. Best case scenario I've seen was someone doing Bernese method and still microdosing the dope until they got down to a very very small amount of dope and still had 2 days of feeling pretty shitty. You will need to be very very strong willed to do it. I am currently tapering to try to get as low as I can and then just jump off cold turkey....I'm traumatized from trying to induce and am deathly afraid now. Not sure how much you are doing but I was doing a g or more a day, now I'm down to less than half a g. I need to get a scale to start making more accurate dosage decreases at this point. Good luck, I wish I never pushed my luck with this shit bc the bupe really used to work great for me and I should've just left well enough alone. This fentdope is trash, very little euphoria you just go from zero to nod and then wake up back at zero. But it is soooo fucking hard to get off.
 
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