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Kratom I don't think I should quit kratom

MDPV_Psychosis

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Been wanting to try memantine for wd or tapering for awhile now just haven't gotten around to obtaining any yet.

Did try taking a low oral dose (5mg) of 3-ho-pce while feeling mild opioid wd from tapering. This was my first time taking a disso in over 10 years and it was also my first time trying 3-ho-pce. Didn't help, if anything it made things worse as I became more aware of all the shitty physical and emotional stuff I was feeling. Maybe a larger dose would have helped, maybe not. Not interested in finding out any time soon. Gonna lock it up for some time in the future when I'm in a better headspace.

Hopefully a combination of agmatine and black seed oil proves to be helpful. I've used agmatine before and it did help a bit, hoping the addition of the black seed oil makes it even better.

If not I may give a rapid suboxone taper a try
 

plumbus-nine

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Did try taking a low oral dose (5mg) of 3-ho-pce while feeling mild opioid wd from tapering. This was my first time taking a disso in over 10 years and it was also my first time trying 3-ho-pce. Didn't help, if anything it made things worse as I became more aware of all the shitty physical and emotional stuff I was feeling. Maybe a larger dose would have helped, maybe not. Not interested in finding out any time soon. Gonna lock it up for some time in the future when I'm in a better headspace.
3-HO arylcyclohexylamines are weird ones imho and possibly not strong enough at NMDA. It alone, without opioid tolerance or withdrawal, made me feel weird twice and thus abstaining from any more use.

Interesting that IV ketamine is more efficacious than other ROAs, and might confirm my theory that the speed of onset / "rush" is relevant for tolerance reduction. For me there is a "dissociation threshold" phenomenon, when taking lower dosages, they just cause weird feelings and regret of taking them but once the threshold has been hit, all the discomfort goes and stays away for the duration of the agent. With longer lasting ones, tolerance is significantly reduced afterwards yet disso tolerance itself goes up and next time it requires a bit more to cross this threshold - specially if one had a history of disso tolerance.

That said, it's not a magic bullet unfortunately but can work for the worst, last few mg's of an opioid taper.
Very interesting sounds the combination of memantine / long lasting arylcyclohexylamine + ultra low dose naltrexone.

DXM is a weird one and possibly worse in lower doses than higher, but also possibly cardiotoxic in higher doses and readily able to induce panic attacks in me which lasted for like 2 days so I avoid more than like 450mg DXM altogether. Also it's by far the most psychotomimetic dissociative for me (no experiences with PCP though and 3-MeO caused weird stuff too), which might be distracting but generally isn't what one wants. Though this might be abolished during opioid withdrawal with increased cholinergic load, at least the opposite is true - while on morphine, which alone is indirectly anticholinergic. the psychotomimesis is worse than without an opiate.

One might combine DXM + memantine to get more out of a prescription and avoid rushing into D2 induced mania (which doesn't readily happen unless a stim is introduced but of course YMMV).
Ketamine probably is too short lasting, yet can be extended by re-dosing for days.

I found kratom, when used in single doses/days, not to readily reinforce tolerance and withdrawal unlike classical opioids. Possibly because its mu agonism doesn't recruit beta arrestin, whatever this means. So one could alternate between a dissociative and kratom, possibly while using ULN and pregabalin.

Real unsolved problem imho is PAWS. There dissociatives do help but it seems to be an one shot thing, like the ketamine related rapid antidepressant effects, after one became tolerant to them it doesn't work anymore. Which made me relapse into morphine :( looking forward to ULN..
 

Xorkoth

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I don't really get PAWS from kratom like I do with other/full opiates. Fortunately. But I'm sure some people do. PAWS is a bitch. The best advice I have for PAWS is to work out every day. Work out hard, do cardio and weights. Every day. It makes a HUGE fucking difference, moreso than any other factor by far.

Okay question for people here who use kratom daily or daily for periods of time or just frequently. Do you use the powdered form? Personally I have used the powdered form for the most part because it is what is available and cheapest bang for you buck. However, I have also used the crushed leaf (strain out the kratom ((it is like tea leaf consistency)), downside is that you have to use like twice as much leaf and its more expensive and takes more time to prepare etc.) but, the CRUSHED LEAF FELT WAY CLEANER, than the GOOPY SLUDGY POWDER. Anyone else like crushed leaf? or Extracts instead?

I have noticed the same thing from crushed leaf vs powder. The dose needed is higher, but the effect is substantially nicer. It has a lot to do with vendor, too, I'm sure. The only crushed leaf I know about is from wild-harvested kratom trees from the jungle, whereas most of the supply of "basic" kratom is from farms. Not all kratom is created equal, not by a longshot.
 

GetMeOutOfThisCRAP

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I am tapering off kratom with stronger opiods.

Yes this is a very dumb idea. But it will work actually. Not going to face opioid withdrawal after this as it will be brief usage. Plus kratom addiction gets not as fun when the buzz is closer to sobriety after some time.

The opies help me ruin my life with and be happier than kratom.
 

plumbus-nine

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I have noticed the same thing from crushed leaf vs powder. The dose needed is higher, but the effect is substantially nicer. It has a lot to do with vendor, too, I'm sure. The only crushed leaf I know about is from wild-harvested kratom trees from the jungle, whereas most of the supply of "basic" kratom is from farms. Not all kratom is created equal, not by a longshot.
Yeah, for sure, and unfortunately. Only good experience so far was a Kratom sample pack with different strains where the red one was actually stronger than like 60+mg morphine but the green I have now is bunk, only sweating and weird headspace. Found a supplier for complete leaves, more expensive but might give them a try.

PAWS might be serotonergic too, at least a SNRI + dopaminergic should resolve protract it. As long as you aren't already dependent on venlafaxine like me. Switched now to tramadol, has a favorable side effects profile for me but still need some additional morphine to avoid PAWS.

Any experiences with using psychedelics against that, or (U)LDN?
I'm not even sure how much really is PAWS b/c morphine was always an effective aid to me unless overused and too much secondary suppression going on. Wondering whether a rigid regimen of like 60mg/d might actually be better than pregabalin for anxiety, less brain fog but the change in metabolism and asexuality is worrysome even though pregabalin is similar and methadone was way worse. Would say antipsychotics would be worse too. Unsure about tolerance, it's not linear for me and with pregab reducing is painless and quick. Just the last mgs suck ass..
Worst part is the dependence of doctors, expenses and stigma..
 
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polarthedog

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I have been addicted to about 72 grams a day before for multiple months at a time, that was actually the first opioid I was ever addicted too, so I didn’t realize what the withdrawals were, I just thought I was losing my mind and the only thing that helped was drinking a 1.75 liter bottle of alcohol over a 2-3 day period and taking Kratom with it. It would wear off in the middle of the night and I would have soul crushing nightmares in which time would dilate, I had dreams that felt like they lasted days or more, but they were really only 30. minutes long. I would be trapped by aliens in a space prison, or being eaten alive over and over (in opiate withdrawal nightmares I can feel pain), then I respawn And die again. I don’t remember which nightmares belong to which withdrawals anymore because I’ve come down so many times. I ended up getting of bupe to get off of Kratom, it’s pretty damn hard to get off of if it only gets rid of your withdrawals for 2-3 hours. I had read online that Kratom had no withdrawals, so I was like fuck it I’ll take a shit ton. People assume just because it doesn’t give them withdrawal, then everyone who says they have withdrawals from it must just be pussies or imagining it it seem so like. I think that makes it worse because it’s hard to get sympathy from people
Btw I would eat doses between 21-28 grams at a time 4 ish times a day, so 72 grams is probably a conservative estimate
 
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Pumpkin2021

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I have been addicted to about 72 grams a day before for multiple months at a time, that was actually the first opioid I was ever addicted too, so I didn’t realize what the withdrawals were, I just thought I was losing my mind and the only thing that helped was drinking a 1.75 liter bottle of alcohol over a 2-3 day period and taking Kratom with it. It would wear off in the middle of the night and I would have soul crushing nightmares in which time would dilate, I had dreams that felt like they lasted days or more, but they were really only 30. minutes long. I would be trapped by aliens in a space prison, or being eaten alive over and over (in opiate withdrawal nightmares I can feel pain), then I respawn And die again. I don’t remember which nightmares belong to which withdrawals anymore because I’ve come down so many times. I ended up getting of bupe to get off of Kratom, it’s pretty damn hard to get off of if it only gets rid of your withdrawals for 2-3 hours. I had read online that Kratom had no withdrawals, so I was like fuck it I’ll take a shit ton. People assume just because it doesn’t give them withdrawal, then everyone who says they have withdrawals from it must just be pussies or imagining it it seem so like. I think that makes it worse because it’s hard to get sympathy from people
Btw I would eat doses between 21-28 grams at a time 4 ish times a day, so 72 grams is probably a conservative estimate
Damn Son, that is for sure a shit ton of plant material. My stomach would never let me consume even half of what you take. And it sounds like you went through some serious withdrawl. People forget that when they quit kratom they are not just quitting the mitragynine that hits the MU, it also has 39 other alkaloids that nobody really knows what they do to our different receptors. I know for sure that one of the alkaloids acts like a mild benzo or a lyrica. I'm not saying it's a pharm grade GABA A/B but I know it is similar in its effects. So you are withdrawing from 40 different alkaloids so it's no wonder that people suffer so severely.

I thought my use was bad at 23 grams per day ( and I still DO want to cut that back to 19 ) and I can't imagine what CT off of 72 grams plus would be.

So are you going to keep taking that much or are you trying to taper? Sorry I didn't catch that in your post. Do you think you could get by OK with maybe 36 to 40 grams per day? Good luck with whatever you do.

Might be TMI.....but how are your bowels? Once a day? Less/more than that? Rock hard like actual timber logs ? ha ha. Just curious.
 

negrogesic

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Interesting how some people can tolerate single doses of 20+ grams. I have a history of monster sized opioid habit and used to easily shoot entire 100ug/hr fentanyl patches (enough to kill 8 people) ontop of methadone. Hell i once developed a IV heroin addiction ontop of my 380mg/day methadone habit. But i can't really get in much more than 40g of kratom per day without getting very nauseated and wobbly.

With extracts and tea I can go higher but i still wind up getting the wobbles eventually. I also get pretty dysphoric with large doses (like 20g equivalent of kratom by way of extracts). I form a tolerance to kratom pretty fast but i don't gain tolerance to the nausea much. Can imagine taking an ounce of kratom at a time, thats like half a soda can full. Makes my stomach ache just thinking about it. Those who are able to take 20g at a time must have iron stomachs.
 

polarthedog

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Those withdrawals were from when I as 17-18, I’m not sure if I remember what my bowels were like at that time specially. Bu I can say for sure that I have had to resort to the dreaded fork.
What is the fork? You may be asking.
Well, after a week of not being able to shit, even with craploads if stool softeners, I would push really hard, and the poo would come like one inch out of my butt hole. At which point I would take a fork, and spear that fucker, grab boTh the handle, and the prongs extruding from the poo, and manually pull it out.
Btw, I sincerely did not mean for this to happen, I meant for the fork to remain purely a shit fork, BUT.... my mom may or may not have found the fork, washed it, and put it back into circulation with the other forks. That allegedly may or may not have happened more than once(my replacement shit forks being recirculated, I mean we can say for sure the manusl shitting happened ALOT)
 

polarthedog

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Interesting how some people can tolerate single doses of 20+ grams. I have a history of monster sized opioid habit and used to easily shoot entire 100ug/hr fentanyl patches (enough to kill 8 people) ontop of methadone. Hell i once developed a IV heroin addiction ontop of my 380mg/day methadone habit. But i can't really get in much more than 40g of kratom per day without getting very nauseated and wobbly.

With extracts and tea I can go higher but i still wind up getting the wobbles eventually. I also get pretty dysphoric with large doses (like 20g equivalent of kratom by way of extracts). I form a tolerance to kratom pretty fast but i don't gain tolerance to the nausea much. Can imagine taking an ounce of kratom at a time, thats like half a soda can full. Makes my stomach ache just thinking about it. Those who are able to take 20g at a time must have iron stomachs.
Forgot to answer this, I was getting side effects, double vision, nausea, vomiting, tremors, but I found ways of mitigating all the side effects by mixing other Drugs in. I mean I was already mixing clonopin and alcohol at 16, doing what I began doing at 17 with opiates wasn’t too big of a step. Plus I had undiagnosed fibromyalgia at the time, which wasn’t diagnosed until age 20, so I figured I had some terminal illness based on the level of pain I was in. So I was like fuck it, if I’m gonna die, I’m go balls to the wall with drugs. I found that a mixture of benzodiazepines, Benadryl, and weed both potentiated the Kratom and reduced the side effects. I would still puke, but it’d all come up st once painlessly, then I’d go nod off and take more soon after. That’s wasn’t even the height of my drug use. At one point I was taking poppy pods Valium clonidine lyrica alcohol dxm and weed every day with binges on adderall a couple times a month. I always think it’s strange how people say mixing benzos and alcohol Andy opiates together is deadly, I heard that and I looked up why, and found they just dramatically potentiate each other, so my solution was always just to be careful with dosing, and adding lyrica in with those 3 takes it to another level.i also like utilizing the time dilation effects of dissassociatives and tryptamines/ phenethylmines to make it so the other drugs feel like there lasting longer. I liked mixing dxm with mescaline.

Disclaimer, this is a harm reduction forum,so... drugs are bad, mkay?
 
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drewbocop

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I haven't missed a day of kratom since 2015. And I plan to keep it that way for as long as I possibly can. I take a lot too. It's too cheap and keeps me well mentally and physically. There just isn't enough downsides to it for me to want to quit when it is so incredibly cheap and easy. The only thing I don't like is 1. knowing I rely on something so completely and 2. The stigma attached if I were to start dating again because they're going to think it's weird that I'm shoveling green powder into my face 4 times a day (or more) and that I'm a junkie. Because I am. If it gets scheduled finally, I suppose I will have to finally take the plunge but fuck, I really don't want that to happen. Kratom has been a godsend for me over the years, first got on it in 2007. Been through a lot since then drugs wise, and it's helped me remove myself from all of them. I got in a car accident and got a DUI which completely destroyed my life and kratom is what helped me keep my marbles during all the trials back then. However, I am so content while living on kratom that I am also content with doing nothing, when I'm not at work, but keeping my ass planted in my room with all my fun stuff and never achieving any goals. Or even setting them in the first place. It is just like hard opioids in that way.

I've been completely off of it several times over the years for many months at a time but I always go back to it. It fills the gaps in my sober-self's character which I suppose is kind of sad. I wish any of you going through withdrawal from it all the best, it can be extremely taxing mentally with the total insomnia and intense RLS. I know that bit all too well. Gabapentin is the absolute best tool for kratom withdrawal.

Those withdrawals were from when I as 17-18, I’m not sure if I remember what my bowels were like at that time specially. Bu I can say for sure that I have had to resort to the dreaded fork.
What is the fork? You may be asking.
Well, after a week of not being able to shit, even with craploads if stool softeners, I would push really hard, and the poo would come like one inch out of my butt hole. At which point I would take a fork, and spear that fucker, grab boTh the handle, and the prongs extruding from the poo, and manually pull it out.
Btw, I sincerely did not mean for this to happen, I meant for the fork to remain purely a shit fork, BUT.... my mom may or may not have found the fork, washed it, and put it back into circulation with the other forks. That allegedly may or may not have happened more than once(my replacement shit forks being recirculated, I mean we can say for sure the manusl shitting happened ALOT)

Yes, I have a shit knife I keep in the drawer. I never really get completely constipated, but I lay some beautifully massive toilet cloggers.
 

polarthedog

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Has anyone ever found the shit knife? Lol how did you/ would you explain that? I’d just tell them outright, ive never understood feeling ashamed of addictions, I think everyone’s Is addicted to something, whether it’s tv, or ciggerrettes, or porn, or eating rocks( for real some people eat rocks) or drinking pee or doing heroin, I don’t understand why it matters, we’re human, and so inherently, we are fucked haha
Lol you could just pay dumb and be like “I though everyone has a shit knife?”
 

burn out

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However, I am so content while living on kratom that I am also content with doing nothing, when I'm not at work, but keeping my ass planted in my room with all my fun stuff and never achieving any goals. Or even setting them in the first place. It is just like hard opioids in that way.

For me, kratom was different from hard opiates in that respect. When I was using heroin, I didn't want to go to work I pretty much just wanted to lay around on heroin. On kratom however, (because for me it was so much less sedating) I was able to live much more normally. It didn't make me averse to work like heroin and I remember enjoying activities like working in the garden on kratom.

I am very glad to be off it now though mainly because I got so tired of having to keep swallowing green powder every 4 or 5 hours and occasionally I'd have nightmares where I'd get arrested and have to go through withdrawal in jail. Towards the end, it lost nearly all of its positive effects and I just took it to stave off withdrawal. Overall though, it was one of the least harmful substances I've been addicted to and really seems like a good medicine when used wisely.
 

polarthedog

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For me, kratom was different from hard opiates in that respect. When I was using heroin, I didn't want to go to work I pretty much just wanted to lay around on heroin. On kratom however, (because for me it was so much less sedating) I was able to live much more normally. It didn't make me averse to work like heroin and I remember enjoying activities like working in the garden on kratom.

I am very glad to be off it now though mainly because I got so tired of having to keep swallowing green powder every 4 or 5 hours and occasionally I'd have nightmares where I'd get arrested and have to go through withdrawal in jail. Towards the end, it lost nearly all of its positive effects and I just took it to stave off withdrawal. Overall though, it was one of the least harmful substances I've been addicted to and really seems like a good medicine when used wisely.
O find whether or not it makes you,lazy depends on dosage and the strain used, if you feel lazy, can always switch to an uplifting strain, kinda like weed in that aspect
 

BlueBull

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Interesting how some people can tolerate single doses of 20+ grams. I have a history of monster sized opioid habit and used to easily shoot entire 100ug/hr fentanyl patches (enough to kill 8 people) ontop of methadone. Hell i once developed a IV heroin addiction ontop of my 380mg/day methadone habit. But i can't really get in much more than 40g of kratom per day without getting very nauseated and wobbly.

With extracts and tea I can go higher but i still wind up getting the wobbles eventually. I also get pretty dysphoric with large doses (like 20g equivalent of kratom by way of extracts). I form a tolerance to kratom pretty fast but i don't gain tolerance to the nausea much. Can imagine taking an ounce of kratom at a time, thats like half a soda can full. Makes my stomach ache just thinking about it. Those who are able to take 20g at a time must have iron stomachs.
Activated charcoal capsules work wonders for kratom nausea for me. I have the same thing as you, above around 40g/day I get pretty intense nausea, two 300mg capsules of charcoal and half an hour to 45 minutes later it's gone. I read that somewhere on reddit I believe and didn't expect it to actually work, but it does for me
 
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4meSM

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I have a question for my fellow kratom users, or ex users. Specially those among you who take 10-30g (or more) per dose.

How much did you start with? Did it ever work at all at the 2-5g range? (I mean when you first started taking kratom).
 
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burn out

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I have a question for my fellow kratom users, or ex users. Specially those among you who take 10-30g (or more) per dose.

How much did you start with? Did it ever work at all at the 2-5g range? (I mean when you first started taking kratom).

I started with a 12 gram dose, which was way more than I needed but I did not know that at the time. It certainly would have worked in the 2 to 5 gram range and I think 6 grams or so would have been ideal. My normal dose would usually be 4 or 5 grams but there are times when I was taking close to 10 grams per dose.
 

BlueBull

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I have a question for my fellow kratom users, or ex users. Specially those among you who take 10-30g (or more) per dose.

How much did you start with? Did it ever work at all at the 2-5g range? (I mean when you first started taking kratom).
I used to take 4g as a starting dose and then redose with 1g a few times when I started off. Then I went up to at peak 70g/day spread over two sessions, first dose was about 15g and redoses were about 4-5g. Now I have tapered back down and my first dose is now at 5g, redoses are 2g and it adds up to about 20-25g per day. So yes, 5g does still do something even after using daily for a loooong time but I did have to taper down to it, if I would have taken 5g when I was at my peak usage, it would not have done much
 

4meSM

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Kratom tolerance seems to manifest itself in 2 ways : 1) Dose escalation and 2) Frequency escalation.

You usually get both (as with most recreational drugs), but I've noticed that some people only seem to experience one of them. For instance, taking 10-20g twice a day is a fairly common pattern.
On the other hand, I happen to take it many times a day (sometimes up to 7 times) but haven't felt the need to increase my dose at all, I'm still taking ~3g.

I really think there's something a bit unusual going on here, the 2 "types" of tolerance may have separate mechanisms (maybe the first one takes place at the receptors, while the second one has more to do with pharmacokinetics and metabolism).
I guess this is somehow related to 7-hydroxymitragynine and mitragynine pseudoindoxyl.
 

Larimar

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Yeah I can never up my amount , once I take too much in one sitting I will throw up and I can tell within a few minutes if I took too much. I just have to take my normal dose more often . I even feel withdrawal from Kratom when I am taking my OxyContin . Kratom also raised my tolerance to OxyContin, which sucks , used to be able to feel good off 20 mg now have to take 4O mg .
I have grown used to the nasty taste but my family notices me drinking this sludge and question me on why , which I don’t explain because they don’t know about my pill problem . I tell them it’s like coffee for energy .
 
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