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fenugreek, testosterone booster ?

asecin

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i found this site http://www.testofen.com/ and for first time ever i read that fenugreek can boost testosterone. how true is that ? any of you guys can confirm or disapprove this in any way ?


here is what one person said to me;
"It is true that Fenugreek is being USED and sold as a testosterone booster... and it might well boost it. BUT, it would also appear that fenugreek is also strongly estrogenic. Fenugreek probably boosts all hormonal levels, and I would not advise men to use it... too much risk of gynomastica. Consider this: fenugreek has been long promoted as boosting mothers' milk, and as a natural breast enhancer. I'd avoid it"

but i knew that fenugreek is used by women long time ago and it does influence estrogen, why would not only that testofen site claim it boosts testosterone but also does http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KFY/is_3_23/ai_n13653752/ and several other sites out there ?? is it a giant scam ? :|
 

asecin

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what do you mean its not recommended ? i see all over the internet it is recommended and in most places it states it has very few side effects in high doses and its not toxic at all.
if it actually boosts both male and female hormones, it must mean it is helpful in a way, correct me if im wrong.
 

asecin

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so i know indians use a lot of it in cooking, but does it mean they switch their hormones on and off by using so much fenugreek ? maybe you need a huge raw seeds for it... i dunno
 

greenberryhaze

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^^^

I've only used fenugreek powder for making curry. You don't need much, maybe 1 tsp per onion. I have no idea what effect this would have on hormones, but Indian curry is good for the soul.
 

asecin

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i cant find any fenugreek anywhere. i tried few food stores that sell spices, NONE SELLS IT.
is it the hardest to find spice or something ? wow im surprised how hard it is to find such thing in stores :s
 

doIhavePotential

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i cant find any fenugreek anywhere. i tried few food stores that sell spices, NONE SELLS IT.
is it the hardest to find spice or something ? wow im surprised how hard it is to find such thing in stores :s
bulk food stores or indian stores will have it.
 

K12

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Go to a health food store and buy the Chinese mushroom "CORDYCEPS". Oh my God... Now this increases testosterone. I got huge pumped up wood in the morning and all day long. It works by stimulating leutinizing hormone production and thus, through the bio-feedback loop stimulates testosterone. It is one of the truly effective OTC testosterone booster IMO.
 

MagickalKat777

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Go to a health food store and buy the Chinese mushroom "CORDYCEPS". Oh my God... Now this increases testosterone. I got huge pumped up wood in the morning and all day long. It works by stimulating leutinizing hormone production and thus, through the bio-feedback loop stimulates testosterone. It is one of the truly effective OTC testosterone booster IMO.
Ah, cordyceps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuKjBIBBAL8
 

seep

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wow

Go to a health food store and buy the Chinese mushroom "CORDYCEPS". Oh my God... Now this increases testosterone. I got huge pumped up wood in the morning and all day long. It works by stimulating leutinizing hormone production and thus, through the bio-feedback loop stimulates testosterone. It is one of the truly effective OTC testosterone booster IMO.
do you buy the actual fungus or a pill bottle? I can get the latter at a store and will try this. I wonder if I get the former at a Chinese market will I get a toxic reaction?

I get ma huang bark in a cellophane bag from the Chinese and it's pretty much better than any OTC pre-workout supplement I've ever tried, with very few of the noradrenergic side effects of ephedrine pills.
 

DeathIndustrial88

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I know this is an incredibly old post but it is still open and don't see many other threads about it or a confirmed answer.

I have been on bupe for almost 5 years and I have quit exercising, put on 30lbs, feel sluggish and tired, irritable, no sex drive, depressed (which oddly, bupe completely took away any suicidal thoughts I had for a good portion of those few years, it was excellent). I am starting to think it could be a testosterone problem or hormone issue in general.

So if fenugreek were to increase ALL hormones, wouldn't this kind of be a good thing for some one on ORT? Or is this stuff really going to give me manboobs (or make the ones I have even worse?) I hope I didn't just waste this money on it, but I am tired of feeling dead inside.
 

dopamimetic

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I have been on bupe for almost 5 years and I have quit exercising, put on 30lbs, feel sluggish and tired, irritable, no sex drive, depressed (which oddly, bupe completely took away any suicidal thoughts I had for a good portion of those few years, it was excellent). I am starting to think it could be a testosterone problem or hormone issue in general.
Apparently bupe is less suppressive to testosteron production than methadone (and probably morphine), but it is. I am experiencing similar symptoms to what you describe, and attribute them to have been the past 1,5-2 years on opioids, first bupe, then methadone and the last ~year on morphine. Things worsened pretty slow and unnoticed for some time, thought of it just being age and lack of exercise (in opposition to you I have been too lazy about exercise for most of my life, I am more of a thin stature but these days I certainly put on fat faster than ever before even when I don't eat too much or too heavy ... as I did a lot of dissociatives the same time it's not easy to separate things but dissos never had this sort of side effects in past and testosterone suppression is both a reality and makes sense. For sure many long term / high dose opioid maintenance people don't look too healthy physically but not not all of them get it and not everybody to the same degree. Stimulants help but they don't fix the cause and don't substitute remotely complete of course.

Indeed I too thought about what might possibly solve or reverse this, as my attempt to quit opioids has failed for now, not cause of withdrawal (managed around 6 weeks off it) but the anxiety and psychological pain just are too heavy and disabling at the moment. On the morph I really started to believe that I had changed for the better and that I am more or less completely tolerant to the morph, so just taking it to avoid withdrawal but I was very wrong :( I need the opioid agonism for now but I don't like where it is leading my body to as well as about the depression.

Yeah, bupe is effective in eliminating a good part of negative thoughts but it doesn't lift mood at all, so I realized it only in retrospection and being on it felt pretty useless as it lacks the stress/tension lowering effects of full agonists. We definitely need a selective kappa antagonist which leaves mu and delta alone.

I've remember having read that people suffering from low testosteron levels / hypogonadism from steroid use speculated about a substance, afaik it was triptorelin, being able to "reboot" the hormone production and some individuals got it from a doc. Sounds potentially too good to be true and the wikipedia page of this compound doesn't mention it but there are quite some threads about this restart effect.. apparently it causes an initial reaction oppositing to the long term suppression but could an acute dose of it really solve hypogonadism and could maybe be used like once every 6 months or so?

That Testofen page reads like an advertising brochure (which it is). Sounds goot but usually this sort of info tends to be heavily biased :unsure: Here it's mentioned too (again some sort of advertising), along with tribulus terrestris, DHEA and.. vitamin D, Zinc :/
More of a theoretical question as I don't have intents in this direction, but is testosterone supplementation with long-term opioid use a thing which could be and maybe is done or would it have the same problematics as in people with normal levels seeking increased anabolism?
 
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DeathIndustrial88

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Apparently bupe is less suppressive to testosteron production than methadone (and probably morphine), but it is. I am experiencing similar symptoms to what you describe, and attribute them to have been the past 1,5-2 years on opioids, first bupe, then methadone and the last ~year on morphine. Things worsened pretty slow and unnoticed for some time, thought of it just being age and lack of exercise (in opposition to you I have been too lazy about exercise for most of my life, I am more of a thin stature but these days I certainly put on fat faster than ever before even when I don't eat too much or too heavy ... as I did a lot of dissociatives the same time it's not easy to separate things but dissos never had this sort of side effects in past and testosterone suppression is both a reality and makes sense. For sure many long term / high dose opioid maintenance people don't look too healthy physically but not not all of them get it and not everybody to the same degree. Stimulants help but they don't fix the cause and don't substitute remotely complete of course.

Indeed I too thought about what might possibly solve or reverse this, as my attempt to quit opioids has failed for now, not cause of withdrawal (managed around 6 weeks off it) but the anxiety and psychological pain just are too heavy and disabling at the moment. On the morph I really started to believe that I had changed for the better and that I am more or less completely tolerant to the morph, so just taking it to avoid withdrawal but I was very wrong :( I need the opioid agonism for now but I don't like where it is leading my body to as well as about the depression.

Yeah, bupe is effective in eliminating a good part of negative thoughts but it doesn't lift mood at all, so I realized it only in retrospection and being on it felt pretty useless as it lacks the stress/tension lowering effects of full agonists. We definitely need a selective kappa antagonist which leaves mu and delta alone.

I've remember having read that people suffering from low testosteron levels / hypogonadism from steroid use speculated about a substance, afaik it was triptorelin, being able to "reboot" the hormone production and some individuals got it from a doc. Sounds potentially too good to be true and the wikipedia page of this compound doesn't mention it but there are quite some threads about this restart effect.. apparently it causes an initial reaction oppositing to the long term suppression but could an acute dose of it really solve hypogonadism and could maybe be used like once every 6 months or so?

That Testofen page reads like an advertising brochure (which it is). Sounds goot but usually this sort of info tends to be heavily biased :unsure: Here it's mentioned too (again some sort of advertising), along with tribulus terrestris, DHEA and.. vitamin D, Zinc :/
More of a theoretical question as I don't have intents in this direction, but is testosterone supplementation with long-term opioid use a thing which could be and maybe is done or would it have the same problematics as in people with normal levels seeking increased anabolism?


Omg, I am so sorry to hear that you are feeling anything like I am at all! But I've started to notice this among quite a few buprenorhine users I've met. I too keep trying to tell myself that it could just be me getting older too. I was never a hardcore exerciser or anything either before bupe, but I was able to force myself to be active much easier. I was also able to go without food much easier without too much discomfort, especially if I had drugs.

I think one of the problems is that these are long acting opioids. Much too long acting opioids. I didn't exactly get on maintenace to 'get off opiates' like most people out there seem to think it's for. I got on it cause I knew I couldn't quit heroin and various other pain pills because they have been the only effective thing at making me feel even remotely normal and functional. But at least when I was on the shorter acting ones, the medicines atleast left my body a few times a day and so the side effects weren't like they are now on these long acting ones that never wear off. Constipation on bupe is crazy too.

You are absolutely right that stimulants help. lol But it's definitely not the best road to go down. I've noticed that doing meth, my bowels will start moving again like a normal person and the weight will literally melt off my body. But as soon as it's gone and I'm just back on my bupe and started eating again, I just become bloated and sluggish. But meth also makes me very hypersexual and it's pretty damaging to judgement and toxic on the mind and body. I generally end up having a mental breakdown every time I have to crash from it.

I don't think getting off of opiates is very good idea. I have been a pretty bad drug addict for the good part of the past 20+ years. I also loved dissassociatives for awhile. Unfortunately I never had the opportunity to try ketamine. But whenever I dealt with opioids withdrawals or couldn't get any other drugs, high doses of DXM did it for me. I was going on DXM trips every week, a few times a week for a good 3 years maybe. Some weeks I took breaks when I actually had enough heroin or pain pills. Whenever I had my meds (heroin/opioids) they were the best thing at eliminating any desires for me to drink or destroy myself with drugs. Without opioids, I was literally drinking cough syrup, smoking meth, doing inhalants, popping various pills, drinking bottles of vodka raw. Some times all of those things in the same day. Until I found some heroin I wouldn't stop. I just couldn't deal with the withdrawal and emotional torment that comes even after the physical withdrawals are over.

So in that aspect, I give bupe a lot of credit for stabilizing me. I haven't touched alcohol in 5 years now, after partaking for a good 15 years. I no longer take dxm in trip-doses (i do use low doses some times for bupe tolerance). I don't want to go back to heroin & that whole chasing drugs game either. It would be nice if they would offer various opiates and opioids for maintenance.

I up and quit drinking coffee on bupe now too. I use to drink pots of coffee all day everyday. I LOVED just regular black coffee. lol it enhanced everything I was doing. Then out of no where, it just started repulsing me & now I can't handle drinking it. I don't know how it happened. Whether the bupe played role, I don't know but the timing was the same.

You are so right about bupe not lifting mood either. Some days I do get a slight mood lift once it kicks in for a bit, but it's rare and pretty mild. Then the rest of the 'effect' is usually me getting pretty sleepy about 2-3hrs after I've taken it (which is usually right when I get up), so the rest of my day is left in this groggy, lethargic haze. It's not always terrible, but it's not exactly pleasant either. It's nothing like the kind of sedation or drowsiness I get from full agonists. At least those come with euphoria and pain relief. Bupe lifts me up just a tiny bit for an hour and then puts me down for the rest of the day. Most days I even try to take naps during the day.

I haven't really mentioned this to my doctor. I don't want to get taken off of my meds, although I don't think my doctor would. I think it would be a disaster to take me off bupe and go through withdrawals again at this point. I am happy to be on opioids the rest of my life, but I just wish they were not these super long acting ones. Places like Switzerland have been very successful at giving addicts legal hero in a few doses a day. It would be so much more rewarding for one, and i'd be able to take breaks when needed, where as taking a break with bupe would take days and days.

I have never used steroids, but this chemical sounds interesting. I will have to look into it. As for the fenugreek, it sounds like there just isn't enough information about it to really know. I'm not sure I feel too good about taking something that no one really knows might happen to me in the long term. but I guess it is in food and I can be a guinea pig and test it out. If I start feeling anything negative, I will stop immediately. Although I am a person who use to put just about anything in my body at dangerous levels. lol who knows what damage I have done to my mind and body at this point.

I'm so sorry you are dealing with feeling this way too. Thank you for reaching back out to me on here. I enjoy conversation. Especially when it comes to drugs and such. Some times it's hard to find anyone to hold these conversations with who will take you seriously. lol Feel free to hit me up any time. I am always happy to speak to people and learn as much as I can. :)
 

dopamimetic

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Thanks for your posting, @DeathIndustrial88 .

Yeah what should I say, I knew it before yet didn't want to believe or was just too desperate. What comes a bit surprising is the whole low energy thing and that while I am of somewhat thin stature, have put on more fat on opioids than I ever had, specially on the belly, and without eating more. Never seen this with others, the majority of H addicts and maintenance people is slim at least these I've seen. Mirtazapine for example made me crazily hungry for carbohydrates and sugar but the morphine doesn't. It's just slowed metabolism and less anabolic activity.. I already avoid beverages with sugar, things like chips, mostly fast food etc.pp. appears like I would put fat even if I'd eat just fruits.. Probably I am too lazy and need to change habits yet there is a clear worsening, in other times I was similarly lazy and did frequent high dose dissos but my body shape remained the same. Nothing special but not bad either given the circumstances of life and lifestyle. Need to check whether opiates also suppress thyroxine as this could be a reason too.

For me the loss of libido is indeed almost welcome to me, is primarily mental leaving the body functional but that might be time dependent (in people who take testosteron antagonists the ability for erection doesn't go in one day and needs a similar amount of time to recover after quitting the antag.) Here I am not sure as they say loss of libido not sexual dysfunction but sometimes they mess the descriptions up especially for such topics. Might be though that SSRIs are worse, they can make you horny but physically unable.

Some years ago one of my source shops sold too steroid RCs, SARMs and the like. Did some theoretical research and seems like anabolics only help you to build more muscles from the same training but not(?) or less(?) so to require less training - there are exceptions though, at least one. A compound developed against muscle wasting in cardiac insufficience, people who can't work out anymore so an 'exercise in a bottle' (sic) would come handy and in mice, this works.
There were cancer warnings from the WADA and based on a paper. A bit inconclusive as said paper was about a trial of the chem on rats which showed am increased risk for some tumors. That's scary of course but then I read that these rats had been of a special research breed which is very prone to cancer. This is probably for easy screening as a carcinogen doesn't equal to developing cancer (see smokers) and it'd require a huge amount of animals to get qualitative results. So somewhat inconclusive, some said the reason for discontinuation was indeed abuse but don't remember more details and certainly at this time not worth the risk.
The concept is intriguing though. Why do we need to work out to send triggers for building up muscle mass?

The only physical enhancement I have tried is ITPP (myo-inositol trispyrophosphate) which seems to be pretty safe - good question why it isn't being marketed then? Increases the capacity of platelets to carry more oxygen and while I have no measures, it was pretty impressive and imo certainly above of what placebo is able to do. Took it out of curiosity before going to move furniture from one apartment to another and remember that at some point I got scared cause I felt my heart beating but like I didn't really breathe at all - of course I did but usually I would have had to breathe much faster and deeper.

Yeah I agree, little researched physical agents scare me much more than psychoactives. I know too less about them, and it feels more dangerous as in cancer for example. Different from psychoactives of which most directly influence feelings, probably I wouldn't feel much at all and the consequences might not be obvious for long time.
I know that many think similar about RCs and maybe it is but the RCs usually are designed to selectively influence circuits in the brain which are known and won't cause cancer or your body to blow up..

But I am indeed, out of a necesssity, interested about either testosteron - know that it's said to be hepatotoxic but how can an endogenous compound in moderation be toxic? - or a SARM like eg. Ostarine. They should avoid some of the problems about steroids like further downregulation but are still experimental.
Of course if it should work, triptorelin'd be the better choice as the exposure to it remains very limited. I am sure to have read that some former steroid user with hypogonadism got a shot of it from a doctor but no link to it.
Will first try DHEA maybe but don't have too much hope when even the ad tells about a just 20% increase.

I understand it, but really I don't like that many of the substitution programs are abstainance oriented and tell they are only for limited amount if time, that you need to have two failed so-called detoxifications, force people to come by daily and/or will kick you if you test positive for sth else.. And that they think they know what is best for you in general, like limiting substitution to methadone, bupe and in some places morphine.
Guess I have little choice than to stay on opioids for long time if not for life.. It's just the only fix for my life long emotional problems but the hormone suppression and lack of energy have grown into serious issues. Really often enough all I care about is that people let me be (what they don't, at least the bad guys like police, attorneys of state, creditors, etc), to distract myself with PC/movies/music, sleep, eat and smoke. To take dissociatives if I have access to some, they are a quick fix for the issues and heavily increase energy, sociability, happyness but only temporarily.. It's not real craving as I have when sober but the desire to feel more, do more, to be awake and active. I am somewhat unsure about them, it feels like I could go with just dissos as I did before the opioids but it isn't sustainable, there is physical toxicity, it's expensive and worst of all, gray area and will soon enough become illegal. I am already on probation and certainly have no desire to experience jail time.

DXM is a good aid for reducing or quitting opioids, memantine is too but as long as you tolerate it, DXM is the better choice as it's a more strong NMDA antagonist. These receptors are directly connected to and modulate mu opioid ones as well as the blockade deals with the overexcitation following opioid w/d. I almost skipped over wd twice now and think it's really sad that this isn't used or even known more in clinical practice. There are many papers about, all with good results but even the pain folks are left out alone.

Yeah, Switzerland and the medical diamorphine. The program is pretty strict, they don't let you take pills with you so need to go there three times a day! Technically though I believe it's prescribable but hell I don't found a doc willing to off label prescribe regular, non-abusable medicine with good statistical evidence like riluzol. Almost every country has morphine, oxy, codein, tapentadol but need to use expensive maintenance "therapy" (CH: 300$/€/Fr per week, that is just hi how are you? Fine, thanks, you - let's give the medicine - bye)
They recently approved a K nasal spray for depression but it is only given in a clinical setting with ECG and all (sigh. K's the only anesthetic which is a stimulant instead of a downer, that's why they use it but apparently the approval people didnt do their homework) but 84mg 2x a week doesnt sound too bad.

Hey, the same here 🙂 I spend usually too much time alone as it's very hard to find compatible people in real life when you need to hide so much and behave like what 3rd parties think is correct.. Sometimes I value to be alone, specially sober I just can't relax when among people and the wrong ones make it worse but too I enjoy good conversations and miss them, that, distraction and the infos is mostly why I'm online.. ⚗🌱

I am really unsure whether I should try bupe again, maybe it helps more with depression or is less heavy about hormones but what I remember isn't too promising as it didnt help me mentally just even half as much. Would really like to give oxy a try. Or kratom (was made illegal here some years ago 😤) which can be stimulating.
 

Bravoncius Roxford

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i found this site http://www.testofen.com/ and for first time ever i read that fenugreek can boost testosterone. how true is that ? any of you guys can confirm or disapprove this in any way ?


here is what one person said to me;
"It is true that Fenugreek is being USED and sold as a testosterone booster... and it might well boost it. BUT, it would also appear that fenugreek is also strongly estrogenic. Fenugreek probably boosts all hormonal levels, and I would not advise men to use it... too much risk of gynomastica. Consider this: fenugreek has been long promoted as boosting mothers' milk, and as a natural breast enhancer. I'd avoid it"

but i knew that fenugreek is used by women long time ago and it does influence estrogen, why would not only that testofen site claim it boosts testosterone but also does http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KFY/is_3_23/ai_n13653752/ and several other sites out there ?? is it a giant scam ? :|
Fenugreek does nothing. The compounds found in FG, polyphenols, terpenes, organic acids, etc, have no physiological activity at boosting testosterone. Furthermore, these molecules have absolutely terrible oral bioavailability, so even if they did boost testosterone, considering that only trace amounts of them would make it into your plasma, and that most of them have systemic half-lives of less than one hour, you would get no "in vivo" effect from any of these compounds.

Just because a molecule shows activity "in vitro" at extremely high concentrations(micromolar to millimolar range) doesn't mean that it will have any in situ effects on our cells. The oral bioavailabiltiy of most flavonoids is 1% or less, with some having BV of 0.2% or less. We evolved with plants for millions of years, and our bodies are designed physiologically to not absorb most plant molecules, and the little that gets absorbed gets quickly destroyed and removed by the body through hepatic metabolism. The reason for this is that these molecules, if absorbed, would disturb metabolism, and the body really hates that because one of the keys to optimum health is homoestasis. Usually, plant molecules that show desirable activities in vitro are modified by medicinal chemistry to make them 100 to 1,000 X more potent and at least 50 X more orally active. The few molecules that are not modified need to be designed with special carrier system to make them orally active. A good example of this would be silibinin from milk thistle. It has strong anti-inflammatory actions. However, silibinin is not orally active, being mostly hydrolized in the gut and the little that gets absorbed is quickly conjugated and glucorinated in the liver and excreted. So they created an emulsified version using phospholipids in a special matrix of long-chained dextrose polymers that allows silibinin to have much higher oral activity, and silimarin produces plasma levels of silibinin 7 X higher than the same equivalent dose of silibinin taken from milk thistle. Another example is cycloastragenol, which is a potent activator of telomerase in vitro. The oral biovailability is 1-3% at normal doses, and increases to 25% at massive doses due to non-linear pharmacokinetics. There is a special formulation of CA called TA-65 which utilizes micronized CA in layers of hypromellose of different molecular weights in a hard shell and bioperine. The hypromellose layers allows the CA to reach the gut intact, and the micronization allows it to diffuse through the cell membranes of the intestines. Then, bioperine significantly inhibits the two livr enzymes that breaks down CA. TA-65 results in plasma levels of CA roughly 60 X greater than CA taken alone. It took ten years and cost millions of dollars to be developed because making most phytochemicals orally bioavailable is quite a bitch.

In general, the plant compounds that are most orally active tend to be alkaloids. There are exceptions, of course. For instance, berberine is an alkaloid and has poor oral bioavailability. But, in general, alklaoids unlike most phytochemicals have very good oral bioavailability. The classic example is caffeine, which is the prototypical orally bioavailable molecule with an oral bioavailability of 99%, which puts to shame most pharmaceutical drugs. Caffeine is so bioavailable because of it's high solubility and the fact that it has both hydrophilic and lipohilic pockets, allowing it to readily cross cellular membranes. The reason why alkaloids have such good oral bioavailability is not because plants want to help us, but because they want to kill us. Plants don't make alkaloids to heal us, but because they don't want us to eat them. They are poisons that the plant develops specifically to bypass all the enzymatic and cellular barriers of our body and produce high plasma concentratons so that it is effective at killing us.

Fenugreek doesn't do anything. The only thing that has ever been proven to raise testosterone levels is a diet high in saturated animal fats. Fats in general increase testosterone, but monounstaturated fatty acids like oleic acid do not increase testosterone levels much because they also increase SHBG(steroid hormone binding globulin), which decreases free testosterone by binding it in plasma. But a diet rich in saturated animal fats is really bad for your health due to the effect that it has at increasing LDL cholesterol. Another thing that temporarily increases testosterone is d-aspartic acid, which increases lutenizing hormone. But the body adjusts to it after a couple weeks and levels plummet back normal.

You cannot "cheat" your levels of testosterone higher just like you cannot cheat your levels of dopamine up by taking more tyrosine or phenylalanine. The body has a bunch of feed back loops to keep levels of potent endogenous molecules within a threshold. This is why professional bodybuilders just shoot the stuff, because trying to raise it naturally is pointless.

Also, testosterone is an extremely powerful molecule with a bunch of physiological effects, and a lot of them are not desirable. Men live on average almost 8 years less than women, and one of the reasons is much higher testosterone levels. Testosterone switches the body from cellular preservation and autophagy to anabolism via several mechanisms that are not good for your health, such as increasing MtorC-1 activity, increasing plasma levels of IGF-1(cancer promoting), increasing the synthesis of cholesterol in the liver(because cells walls contain large amounts of cholesterols, so cholesterol is needed for the creation of new cells). Men have 20 X more testosterone than women, and they pay a high price for that: higher incidence of most cancers(except for breast cancer, which women have more), much higher levels of heart disease and infections(testosterone suppresses the immune system). You still need some testosterone, as too little T can cause accelerated ageing of the skin, muscles and bones, and too little T can lead to osteoporosis since men get all their 17-beta-estradiol via the conversion of testosterone via aromatase, and estradiol is necessary for bone homoestasis,. But you are still better off with as little as possible.

Testosterone is such a powerful molecule that the average male produces 5 mg of T a day, 99% of which is bound in plasma by SHBG. So men have only 50 micrograms of active T a day, and that is enough for all the male characteristics, such as facial hair, bigger muscles and more aggressive moods.

Maybe the best strategy for increasing T would be to take aromatase inhibitors like tamoxifene or aromastin, and 5-alpha-reductase inhibits like finasteride. But this is also risky for many other reasons. You should just inject the stuff. If you want to avoid needles, take oral steroids. Testosterone is not orally bioavailable, so the steroids that are are 17-alpha-alkylated ones like methandrostenolone, which are highly hepatotoxic.
 

dopamimetic

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Really, finasteride protects your hair and increases your testosterone? Do you know any numbers, guess it won't exactly be the MAOI of T - or is the 5-alpha route the major breakdown path of it? Need to consider that again.. It's just so overly expensive.

The depression / energy depletion, muscle wasting (and loss of libido, would I care for that) is just too bad and opioids are the only chem, maybe next to dissociatives which aren't sustainable currently with just K, DXM and memantine being prescribable, to completely suppress physical PTSD response/feedback.
 

DeathIndustrial88

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133
Thanks for your posting, @DeathIndustrial88 .

Yeah what should I say, I knew it before yet didn't want to believe or was just too desperate. What comes a bit surprising is the whole low energy thing and that while I am of somewhat thin stature, have put on more fat on opioids than I ever had, specially on the belly, and without eating more. Never seen this with others, the majority of H addicts and maintenance people is slim at least these I've seen. Mirtazapine for example made me crazily hungry for carbohydrates and sugar but the morphine doesn't. It's just slowed metabolism and less anabolic activity.. I already avoid beverages with sugar, things like chips, mostly fast food etc.pp. appears like I would put fat even if I'd eat just fruits.. Probably I am too lazy and need to change habits yet there is a clear worsening, in other times I was similarly lazy and did frequent high dose dissos but my body shape remained the same. Nothing special but not bad either given the circumstances of life and lifestyle. Need to check whether opiates also suppress thyroxine as this could be a reason too.

For me the loss of libido is indeed almost welcome to me, is primarily mental leaving the body functional but that might be time dependent (in people who take testosteron antagonists the ability for erection doesn't go in one day and needs a similar amount of time to recover after quitting the antag.) Here I am not sure as they say loss of libido not sexual dysfunction but sometimes they mess the descriptions up especially for such topics. Might be though that SSRIs are worse, they can make you horny but physically unable.

Some years ago one of my source shops sold too steroid RCs, SARMs and the like. Did some theoretical research and seems like anabolics only help you to build more muscles from the same training but not(?) or less(?) so to require less training - there are exceptions though, at least one. A compound developed against muscle wasting in cardiac insufficience, people who can't work out anymore so an 'exercise in a bottle' (sic) would come handy and in mice, this works.
There were cancer warnings from the WADA and based on a paper. A bit inconclusive as said paper was about a trial of the chem on rats which showed am increased risk for some tumors. That's scary of course but then I read that these rats had been of a special research breed which is very prone to cancer. This is probably for easy screening as a carcinogen doesn't equal to developing cancer (see smokers) and it'd require a huge amount of animals to get qualitative results. So somewhat inconclusive, some said the reason for discontinuation was indeed abuse but don't remember more details and certainly at this time not worth the risk.
The concept is intriguing though. Why do we need to work out to send triggers for building up muscle mass?

The only physical enhancement I have tried is ITPP (myo-inositol trispyrophosphate) which seems to be pretty safe - good question why it isn't being marketed then? Increases the capacity of platelets to carry more oxygen and while I have no measures, it was pretty impressive and imo certainly above of what placebo is able to do. Took it out of curiosity before going to move furniture from one apartment to another and remember that at some point I got scared cause I felt my heart beating but like I didn't really breathe at all - of course I did but usually I would have had to breathe much faster and deeper.

Yeah I agree, little researched physical agents scare me much more than psychoactives. I know too less about them, and it feels more dangerous as in cancer for example. Different from psychoactives of which most directly influence feelings, probably I wouldn't feel much at all and the consequences might not be obvious for long time.
I know that many think similar about RCs and maybe it is but the RCs usually are designed to selectively influence circuits in the brain which are known and won't cause cancer or your body to blow up..

But I am indeed, out of a necesssity, interested about either testosteron - know that it's said to be hepatotoxic but how can an endogenous compound in moderation be toxic? - or a SARM like eg. Ostarine. They should avoid some of the problems about steroids like further downregulation but are still experimental.
Of course if it should work, triptorelin'd be the better choice as the exposure to it remains very limited. I am sure to have read that some former steroid user with hypogonadism got a shot of it from a doctor but no link to it.
Will first try DHEA maybe but don't have too much hope when even the ad tells about a just 20% increase.

I understand it, but really I don't like that many of the substitution programs are abstainance oriented and tell they are only for limited amount if time, that you need to have two failed so-called detoxifications, force people to come by daily and/or will kick you if you test positive for sth else.. And that they think they know what is best for you in general, like limiting substitution to methadone, bupe and in some places morphine.
Guess I have little choice than to stay on opioids for long time if not for life.. It's just the only fix for my life long emotional problems but the hormone suppression and lack of energy have grown into serious issues. Really often enough all I care about is that people let me be (what they don't, at least the bad guys like police, attorneys of state, creditors, etc), to distract myself with PC/movies/music, sleep, eat and smoke. To take dissociatives if I have access to some, they are a quick fix for the issues and heavily increase energy, sociability, happyness but only temporarily.. It's not real craving as I have when sober but the desire to feel more, do more, to be awake and active. I am somewhat unsure about them, it feels like I could go with just dissos as I did before the opioids but it isn't sustainable, there is physical toxicity, it's expensive and worst of all, gray area and will soon enough become illegal. I am already on probation and certainly have no desire to experience jail time.

DXM is a good aid for reducing or quitting opioids, memantine is too but as long as you tolerate it, DXM is the better choice as it's a more strong NMDA antagonist. These receptors are directly connected to and modulate mu opioid ones as well as the blockade deals with the overexcitation following opioid w/d. I almost skipped over wd twice now and think it's really sad that this isn't used or even known more in clinical practice. There are many papers about, all with good results but even the pain folks are left out alone.

Yeah, Switzerland and the medical diamorphine. The program is pretty strict, they don't let you take pills with you so need to go there three times a day! Technically though I believe it's prescribable but hell I don't found a doc willing to off label prescribe regular, non-abusable medicine with good statistical evidence like riluzol. Almost every country has morphine, oxy, codein, tapentadol but need to use expensive maintenance "therapy" (CH: 300$/€/Fr per week, that is just hi how are you? Fine, thanks, you - let's give the medicine - bye)
They recently approved a K nasal spray for depression but it is only given in a clinical setting with ECG and all (sigh. K's the only anesthetic which is a stimulant instead of a downer, that's why they use it but apparently the approval people didnt do their homework) but 84mg 2x a week doesnt sound too bad.

Hey, the same here 🙂 I spend usually too much time alone as it's very hard to find compatible people in real life when you need to hide so much and behave like what 3rd parties think is correct.. Sometimes I value to be alone, specially sober I just can't relax when among people and the wrong ones make it worse but too I enjoy good conversations and miss them, that, distraction and the infos is mostly why I'm online.. ⚗🌱

I am really unsure whether I should try bupe again, maybe it helps more with depression or is less heavy about hormones but what I remember isn't too promising as it didnt help me mentally just even half as much. Would really like to give oxy a try. Or kratom (was made illegal here some years ago 😤) which can be stimulating.
I'm prescribed mirtazapine for sleep, which it does help with. But it often gives me a ravenous hunger before I actually go to bed. I think I read somewhere on this site actually that mirtazapine has down regulation activity of the main opiate receptors. I am still a novice when it comes to pharmacology and all this kind of stuff, but I perceived that this meant that taking mirtazapine routinely would have a negative impact on the way your opiates feel. Does this sound like something that could be rooted in fact?

LOL I have to agree with the some what loss of libido part. Honestly, I feel like it completely separates me from most other humans. I often look around and wonder why and how people can waste so much of their time being 'horny' or hooking up, cheating on their spouses, etc.. I welcome this lowered libido some times because not having to deal with sexual desperation allows me to carry on with life focusing on more important things.

I've never really tried steroids or any kind of enhancement pills like this. I tried the fenugreek the other night for the hell of it and noticed no physiological feelings or psychoactive changes, nothing. Although my right eyelid kept twitching for 2 days after that. Apparently this can be caused just by stress alone (which i've been under plenty) so no clue if the fenugreek played any role.

I luckily ended up with a doctor who is supportive of my maintenance being more of a 'life time' thing. I think it's just the meds themselves and how they work that are finally catching up to me and now I'm realizing bupe is not all it's cracked up to be.

I use to go on DXM trips a lot and have used it for the purpose of reducing/stopping opioid tolerance. I think it does help somewhat and since even lower doses of DXM seem a little psychoactive, it also adds it's own unique feel to the opiate effects. Unfortunately after years of downing bottles of cough syrup and having some of the most insane trips of my life, my gag reflexes have gone into overdrive when putting anything that even has any remote amount of DXM in it.

I've read about the programs in Switzerland and how they make you go there to dose. I don't really like that idea honestly. When I use heroin, the environment, my comfort levels and being able to nod out with my favorite music on is what highlights the duration of the high for me. Having to do it all the time in a clinical setting removes a lot of these recreational aspects. But I do think that what Switzerland is doing is a step in the right direction and they are collecting lots of data and showing just exactly how a person could actually live their lives like anyone else, while maintaining a heroin dependency, safely.

Sorry for the late response. I've been taking care of my mom who is going through chemo for several months now. One of my sisters just died on Wednesday night too. Also stupidly went on a little meth bender, which my brain is going to pay for, for awhile I'm sure. It's also UNREAL how constipated bupe actually makes me. If I'm lucky, I can at least go to the bathroom once a day before I take my dose. But every time I've done meth, after it kicks in, I immediately purge my stomach and can't believe how much 'shit' I walk around with inside me constantly. Sorry if TMI lol but I wouldn't be surprised if chronic constipation at this level could be making my energy and motivation level plummet. Unfortunately doing meth all the time would be a disaster. I also seem to drop pounds rapidly even after 2 days of doing some meth. I think besides purging my stomach contents, a lot of it is water weight, which brought me to questioning if bupe might be making me retain water, making me look more puffy and chunky than I ever use to. So I've barely had the energy or concentration to sit and put my words into sentences through typing with everything going on but I truly appreciate this conversation and you helping me learn a few things. :) Hope all is well.

PS : Bupe might be worth it, if you can stay disciplined and use it in a different manner. I use to be a very suicidal major depressive person. Bupe cut out all thoughts of wanting to kill myself for a good few years there. If you are having this kind of depression, low dose bupe, maybe rotated rather than daily might actually offer you some relief and the ability to focus on other areas for awhile. It's definitely not as a good as heroin, but I'm grateful for the years I spent not thinking about killing myself 5 times a week. If you keep your doses low and spaced neatly apart, it may be able to offer some value to your mental health, while refraining from gaining a hardcore dependence on it or losing the positive benefits. This takes discipline and patience though of course.
 
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DeathIndustrial88

Bluelighter
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
133
Fenugreek does nothing. The compounds found in FG, polyphenols, terpenes, organic acids, etc, have no physiological activity at boosting testosterone. Furthermore, these molecules have absolutely terrible oral bioavailability, so even if they did boost testosterone, considering that only trace amounts of them would make it into your plasma, and that most of them have systemic half-lives of less than one hour, you would get no "in vivo" effect from any of these compounds.

Just because a molecule shows activity "in vitro" at extremely high concentrations(micromolar to millimolar range) doesn't mean that it will have any in situ effects on our cells. The oral bioavailabiltiy of most flavonoids is 1% or less, with some having BV of 0.2% or less. We evolved with plants for millions of years, and our bodies are designed physiologically to not absorb most plant molecules, and the little that gets absorbed gets quickly destroyed and removed by the body through hepatic metabolism. The reason for this is that these molecules, if absorbed, would disturb metabolism, and the body really hates that because one of the keys to optimum health is homoestasis. Usually, plant molecules that show desirable activities in vitro are modified by medicinal chemistry to make them 100 to 1,000 X more potent and at least 50 X more orally active. The few molecules that are not modified need to be designed with special carrier system to make them orally active. A good example of this would be silibinin from milk thistle. It has strong anti-inflammatory actions. However, silibinin is not orally active, being mostly hydrolized in the gut and the little that gets absorbed is quickly conjugated and glucorinated in the liver and excreted. So they created an emulsified version using phospholipids in a special matrix of long-chained dextrose polymers that allows silibinin to have much higher oral activity, and silimarin produces plasma levels of silibinin 7 X higher than the same equivalent dose of silibinin taken from milk thistle. Another example is cycloastragenol, which is a potent activator of telomerase in vitro. The oral biovailability is 1-3% at normal doses, and increases to 25% at massive doses due to non-linear pharmacokinetics. There is a special formulation of CA called TA-65 which utilizes micronized CA in layers of hypromellose of different molecular weights in a hard shell and bioperine. The hypromellose layers allows the CA to reach the gut intact, and the micronization allows it to diffuse through the cell membranes of the intestines. Then, bioperine significantly inhibits the two livr enzymes that breaks down CA. TA-65 results in plasma levels of CA roughly 60 X greater than CA taken alone. It took ten years and cost millions of dollars to be developed because making most phytochemicals orally bioavailable is quite a bitch.

In general, the plant compounds that are most orally active tend to be alkaloids. There are exceptions, of course. For instance, berberine is an alkaloid and has poor oral bioavailability. But, in general, alklaoids unlike most phytochemicals have very good oral bioavailability. The classic example is caffeine, which is the prototypical orally bioavailable molecule with an oral bioavailability of 99%, which puts to shame most pharmaceutical drugs. Caffeine is so bioavailable because of it's high solubility and the fact that it has both hydrophilic and lipohilic pockets, allowing it to readily cross cellular membranes. The reason why alkaloids have such good oral bioavailability is not because plants want to help us, but because they want to kill us. Plants don't make alkaloids to heal us, but because they don't want us to eat them. They are poisons that the plant develops specifically to bypass all the enzymatic and cellular barriers of our body and produce high plasma concentratons so that it is effective at killing us.

Fenugreek doesn't do anything. The only thing that has ever been proven to raise testosterone levels is a diet high in saturated animal fats. Fats in general increase testosterone, but monounstaturated fatty acids like oleic acid do not increase testosterone levels much because they also increase SHBG(steroid hormone binding globulin), which decreases free testosterone by binding it in plasma. But a diet rich in saturated animal fats is really bad for your health due to the effect that it has at increasing LDL cholesterol. Another thing that temporarily increases testosterone is d-aspartic acid, which increases lutenizing hormone. But the body adjusts to it after a couple weeks and levels plummet back normal.

You cannot "cheat" your levels of testosterone higher just like you cannot cheat your levels of dopamine up by taking more tyrosine or phenylalanine. The body has a bunch of feed back loops to keep levels of potent endogenous molecules within a threshold. This is why professional bodybuilders just shoot the stuff, because trying to raise it naturally is pointless.

Also, testosterone is an extremely powerful molecule with a bunch of physiological effects, and a lot of them are not desirable. Men live on average almost 8 years less than women, and one of the reasons is much higher testosterone levels. Testosterone switches the body from cellular preservation and autophagy to anabolism via several mechanisms that are not good for your health, such as increasing MtorC-1 activity, increasing plasma levels of IGF-1(cancer promoting), increasing the synthesis of cholesterol in the liver(because cells walls contain large amounts of cholesterols, so cholesterol is needed for the creation of new cells). Men have 20 X more testosterone than women, and they pay a high price for that: higher incidence of most cancers(except for breast cancer, which women have more), much higher levels of heart disease and infections(testosterone suppresses the immune system). You still need some testosterone, as too little T can cause accelerated ageing of the skin, muscles and bones, and too little T can lead to osteoporosis since men get all their 17-beta-estradiol via the conversion of testosterone via aromatase, and estradiol is necessary for bone homoestasis,. But you are still better off with as little as possible.

Testosterone is such a powerful molecule that the average male produces 5 mg of T a day, 99% of which is bound in plasma by SHBG. So men have only 50 micrograms of active T a day, and that is enough for all the male characteristics, such as facial hair, bigger muscles and more aggressive moods.

Maybe the best strategy for increasing T would be to take aromatase inhibitors like tamoxifene or aromastin, and 5-alpha-reductase inhibits like finasteride. But this is also risky for many other reasons. You should just inject the stuff. If you want to avoid needles, take oral steroids. Testosterone is not orally bioavailable, so the steroids that are are 17-alpha-alkylated ones like methandrostenolone, which are highly hepatotoxic.

Thank you for all this info. I appreciate it. Looks like I wasted 20 dollars then I suppose. :\

I tried the fenugreek the other night out of curiosity. I noticed no physical or mental changes (although that's to be expected especially since it was the first time, but I've always been sensitive to things and can feel things that have just entered my body). All I noticed was that my right eyelid started twitching for 2 days. But upon looking this up, I read that this can just be a stress induced thing and I've definitely been under genuine stress lately.

"The reason why alkaloids have such good oral bioavailability is not because plants want to help us, but because they want to kill us. Plants don't make alkaloids to heal us, but because they don't want us to eat them. They are poisons that the plant develops specifically to bypass all the enzymatic and cellular barriers of our body and produce high plasma concentratons so that it is effective at killing us."
- This is a very interesting perspective and you could very well be right. You think I should quit drinking tea? Genuine question. lol I'm not a fan of tea's taste, but I drink it because we've been conditioned to think it has all these great things for us in it that will heal our bodies. Can't say I've noticed anything negative from drinking it, although I'm not sure I can recall anything positive really coming out of it long term eiither.

Hmm.. I'm not sure what I should do then. Maybe my buprenorphine isn't even affecting my T. I just turned 32 in April and am losing my whole head of hair pretty quickly. Doesn't testosterone play a role in hair loss? If so, then this is indicating that bupe's probably not even touching my testosterone much. lol Maybe it's just the boring qualities of bupes partial agonism and such that leaves me feeling unmotivated, lethargic and lazy most days.
 
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