Harm Reduction Drugs to counteract stimulant induced vasoconstriction

[Alex89]

So I've looked around for accessible vasodilators to help relieve the vasoconstriction caused by stimulant use without finding anything too useful. Things like yohimbe, Kratom, Cayenne Pepper, Cannabis, Benzodiazapines, Dark Chocolate, Garlic Cloves, etc keep on popping up in my searches but they arent exactly what Im looking for. I have access to a vendor who lists some potentially useful pharmaceuticals that got my interest. They are Clonidine, Phentolamine, and Tolazoline.
Now i know that its never a particularly good idea to mix drugs that may cause potential interactions, but I feel that its at least worth looking into. I have no real knowledge on these drugs and Id like your help with some hypothesizing. Ill list a brief bit on each one and hope you guys can help with the rest. I really do wish I could look more into them myself but I just dont have the time anymore, unfortunately. From my brief look Id have to say Phentolamine is the best bet, but Im really just guessing.

Clonidine
- a sympatholytic medication used to treat medical conditions, such as high blood pressure
- It is classified as a centrally acting α2 adrenergic agonist
- It can alleviate opioid withdrawal symptoms by reducing the sympathetic nervous system response such as tachycardia and hypertension, as well as reducing sweating, hot and cold flushes, and general restlessness.
- Clonidine treats high blood pressure by stimulating α2 receptors in the brain, which decreases cardiac output and peripheral vascular resistance, lowering blood pressure. It has specificity towards the presynaptic α2 receptors in the vasomotor center in the brainstem. This binding decreases presynaptic calcium levels, and inhibits the release of norepinephrine (NE). The net effect is a decrease in sympathetic tone.
- It selectively stimulates receptors in the brain that monitor catecholamine levels in the blood. These receptors close a negative feedback loop that begins with descending sympathetic nerves from the brain that control the production of catecholamines in the adrenal medulla. By fooling the brain into believing that catecholamine levels are higher than they really are, clonidine causes the brain to reduce its signals to the adrenal medulla, which in turn lowers catecholamine production and blood levels.

Phentolamine
- It is a reversible, nonselective alpha-adrenergic antagonist.
- Its primary action is vasodilation due to α1 blockade.
- It also can lead to reflex tachycardia because of hypotension and α2 inhibition, which increases sympathetic tone.
- The primary application for phentolamine is for the control of hypertensive emergencies
- It also has usefulness in the treatment of cocaine induced hypertension, where one would generally avoid beta blockers and where calcium channel blockers are not effective

Tolazoline
- It is a non-selective competitive α-adrenergic receptor antagonist.
- It is a vasodilator that is used to treat spasms of peripheral blood vessels.
- It has also been used successfully as an antidote to reverse the severe peripheral vasoconstriction which can occur as a result of overdose with certain 5-HT2A agonist drugs such as LSD, DOB and Bromodragonfly.

 

[Coraline]

What excally is your question?

 

[Alex89]

Are any of those viable options to help with vasoconstriction?
Say potential interactions, or side effects, or issues.
Would the route of administration have to be IV or is it possible to measure out a dose for oral consumption?
How would they compare to beta-blockers or other vasodilators?
Do any of them make my penis larger?
Tolazoline is a competitive antagonist while clonidine is an agonist with a more indirect method of action, would this difference be an issue or not matter?
How does being a non-selective antagonist compare to just alpha-2 action?
Exactly who IS Keyser Söze?

 

[sekio]

Things like yohimbe, Kratom, Cayenne Pepper, Cannabis, Benzodiazapines, Dark Chocolate, Garlic Cloves, etc keep on popping up in my searches but they arent exactly what Im looking for.

Why not? Some of those have the same actions as pharma drugs, or work quite effectively.

Clonidine is known for counteracting not only the hypertensive effects but also some of the "stimulatory" effects of stimulants... it's a pretty effective drug for knocking people out. Same with the other alpha-autoreceptor antagonists.

Tolazoline looks like it's going to be a cross between clonidine anfd yohimbine, i.e. a wierd fucked up pseudostimulant. I would avoid.

Have you tried theobromine, caspacin, even things like Viagra/nitrites? Warming your extremities? Topical mustard plasters?

Realistically if vasoconstriction is becoming a problem you need to find a better stimulant. Vasoconstriction seems to be a major gripe for users of cathinones, not so much for the stims that aren't metabolised to ephedrine mimics.

 

[bayhead415]

Are any of those viable options to help with vasoconstriction?
Say potential interactions, or side effects, or issues.
Would the route of administration have to be IV or is it possible to measure out a dose for oral consumption?
How would they compare to beta-blockers or other vasodilators?
Do any of them make my penis larger?
Tolazoline is a competitive antagonist while clonidine is an agonist with a more indirect method of action, would this difference be an issue or not matter?
How does being a non-selective antagonist compare to just alpha-2 action?
Exactly who IS Keyser Söze?

Lol nice questioned you sneaked into their. Is it a serious question or not?

 

[freehugs]

OP, have you tried taking nitric oxide supplements? They vasodilate so they could be of help to you.

I don't have any knowledge of those others but the NO thought popped into my mind. Good luck

 

[Choosing_Positive]

Do any of them make my penis larger?

Yes! Every last one of them does... Huge man, I'm talking king kong status. Especially if u take all of them at the same time....NOT!

Dude, grow a pair and don't ask ridiculous questions. This forum is for Harm Reduction, not Shlong Enlargement. If god gave you a tiny penis, hopefully he/she gave you huge balls. So, don't worry about it and don't ask stupid questions. If your hung like a 3 year old, then your hung like a 3 year old...no pill is gonna help you. Take a Human Sexuality at a non-conservative school and you should find the answer you are looking for. It is a cavernous body, and with the right exercises and understanding of how your body works, you can accomplish a great deal of success. IME...

 

[bayhead415]

I am curious if any of these can help with the same issues NBOME series causes as well as the overcharged feeling in the body.

 

[tamarinds]

Yes! Every last one of them does... Huge man, I'm talking king kong status. Especially if u take all of them at the same time....NOT!

Dude, grow a pair and don't ask ridiculous questions. This forum is for Harm Reduction, not Shlong Enlargement. If god gave you a tiny penis, hopefully he/she gave you huge balls. So, don't worry about it and don't ask stupid questions. If your hung like a 3 year old, then your hung like a 3 year old...no pill is gonna help you. Take a Human Sexuality at a non-conservative school and you should find the answer you are looking for. It is a cavernous body, and with the right exercises and understanding of how your body works, you can accomplish a great deal of success. IME...

God bluelight is getting lamer every year. No fun

 

[blight12]

Yes! Every last one of them does... Huge man, I'm talking king kong status. Especially if u take all of them at the same time....NOT!

Dude, grow a pair and don't ask ridiculous questions. This forum is for Harm Reduction, not Shlong Enlargement. If god gave you a tiny penis, hopefully he/she gave you huge balls. So, don't worry about it and don't ask stupid questions. If your hung like a 3 year old, then your hung like a 3 year old...no pill is gonna help you. Take a Human Sexuality at a non-conservative school and you should find the answer you are looking for. It is a cavernous body, and with the right exercises and understanding of how your body works, you can accomplish a great deal of success. IME...

Well actually the question is valid in context since the VasoC causes some shrinkage so the meds in question would help. It seems however somebody has some issues of their own to deal with, elsewhere hopefully. Unless that was a joke or tweaker post in which case thats kewl

 

[Diacetylmorphan]

In relation to dilation and constriction of blood vessels, is there a way I can prevent my eyes from getting bloodshot after geeking up and not sleeping?

 

[blight12]

Not sure about bloodshot since if you are doing it right this should all already be hidden by your pupils, so not a problem.

On the pupils. Not really HR, but if i drink alot of whiskey to help with VasoC, my pupils shrink a lot to, even to normal size. It has confused me and made me over stim since i relate pupil size to being high. Anyways, this is a lot of whiskey in this example, so not really good for you.

I also heard somewhere that if you pour strong alcohol directly into your eyes you wont be worrying about pupil size any longer, but this sounds fishy, beware....

 

[CrimpJiggler]

I take gingko biloba and gotu kola. I take aspirin for its anticoagulent properties too. None of that seems to work too well though because I always have cold hands and feet when I'm on amps. Lots of information in your thread, thanks.

I also heard somewhere that if you pour strong alcohol directly into your eyes you wont be worrying about pupil size any longer, but this sounds fishy, beware....

Yeah you won't have to worry about pupil size anymore because you'll be blind and can replace your eye with a glass one with a regular sized pupil. Once I poured an alcohol tincture into my nasal cavity to kill a nasal infection. I ended up with a sore throath for days. I was drinking whiskey while on speed one night and I completely overdid it, drank half the 2L bottle and ended up with a hiatal hernia.

 

[blight12]

LOl hectic, that sounds painful. Yeah its so easy to drink to much. I try only to drink, if really needed, until whatever issue is resolved. And always remember that alcohol can help but does the opposite when it wears off, especially when on stims.

Thanks for taking that last bit as as joke, i hope others do as well.

 

[Professer]

I remember reading isobutyl nitrite had vasodilation effects to it. I'd imagine other nitrates/nitrites would share that quality.

Though it's a very short acting drug. I don't think it would be very helpful to counter over-stimulation side effects.

 

[CFC]

Even though this is an old thread, there aren't many asking this question and I'd like to offer my experience for any who might be tempted to try using an alpha-blocker.

I had a similar desire as OP when using stimulants, and tried combining Clonidine (an alpha-blocker) principally to counteract the strong adrenergic effect (which my heart does not enjoy) of Meth and also to lessen vasoconstriction.

On paper, Clonidine (or any alpha-blocker) looks like it should be a good, discriminating candidate (leaving dopamine and seratonin untouched). However, repeated use has demonstrated something that I since discovered reading studies using Meth and Clonidine on mice, which is that when norepinephrine is suppressed by Clonidine, it has a toxic effect on dopamine pathways, and significantly reduces dopamine to *below* even natural levels.

In use, I find that while it does successfully reduce vasoconstriction, lower heart rate, blood pressure, and overall stimulant anxiety, it almost completely suppresses any positive dopamine/seratonin sides. It feels as if you've taken nothing, or even worse, leaves you feeling a bit negative and sluggish, and I've found even pretty large doses cannot overcome the effect of just a single 0.1mg tablet of Clonidine.

 

[blight12]

I believe this is also because the desired effects are not from dopamine alone. Apparently its very complicated but simple dopamine only release does not cause the euphoria or desired effects alone. Its a combo of everything or everything it does is needed for the effect. Also apparently why the seemingly obvious way to reduce side effects would be blocking the SNS action with another drug but apparently this wont do what we want or think it will do at all.

I don't know anymore details beyond that but i recently read this in ADD somewhere.

Additionally i also read here that others drugs similar to the beta/alpha blockers can be dangerous to the heart due to confused signals with apposing commands coming from both drugs, or something like that (excuse this terrible explanation lol)

It seems there isnt an ideal treatment for this and still remain safe and retain the desired effects. If it gets out of hand i just kill it all with an anti psychotic. Or drink.

 

[CFC]

I tend to agree with you blight12, I'm pretty sure it's a synergy of all the affected neurotransmitters and blocking this or that one probably screws the pleasant effect to a lesser or greater degree. At least, that would seem to be the case from my own experiences.

I notice that when using meth, part of what appears to give me the euphoric feeling seems strongly related to the adrenaline rush and hyperactivity; the complete absence of that rush using Clonidine is very noticeable, and I was never able to induce it while taking even a low dose of the med and a large mg of meth.

Regarding the bit about the danger of confused signals with alpha/beta blockers, I think what you're referring to is the fact that many assume a beta-blocker is a safe treatment to lower blood pressure/heart rate while using stims.

But in fact, it's quite dangerous as the alpha and beta systems feedback into each other. In the absense of beta stimulation, alpha adrenergic stimulation goes AWOL and can lead to both severe hypertension and yet reduced coronary blood flow and cardiac output - a recipe for trouble, especially in those with heart conditions.

Having said that, both taken together (a near-total adrenergic blockade) are safe at the right dosage, and will rather quickly lift you out of your stim induced state without the need for benzos etc should you require it. They also make it much easier to sleep, although personally I find I still need some kind of GABA stimulation.

 

[Psykoton]

Are any of those viable options to help with vasoconstriction?
Say potential interactions, or side effects, or issues.
Would the route of administration have to be IV or is it possible to measure out a dose for oral consumption?
How would they compare to beta-blockers or other vasodilators?
Do any of them make my penis larger?
Tolazoline is a competitive antagonist while clonidine is an agonist with a more indirect method of action, would this difference be an issue or not matter?
How does being a non-selective antagonist compare to just alpha-2 action?
Exactly who IS Keyser Söze?

Isn't that the name on the door of Pölsa's house in the Swedish cult movie "Smala Sussie" ??

 

[blight12]

^^ Yeah i recently noticed the same damn thing. Having researched the actions including the dopamine and SNS action i understand the difference and can easily identify the two separately during an experience.

The problem i have is that SNS action or the peripheral stimulation is generally considered the bad guy responsible for the side effects and negatives and we dont want him around.

The problem with this is that I can clearly consistently identify many desired effects from meth that are only present or at their best when the SNS activity is at its peak. Usually for me the first dose and maybe the first 6-12 hours indicates minimal activity here due to unaffected pupils no tingly skin sensations or the rush effect. This comes on day two and can also get out of hand as well if not kept in check.

The tingly rushing sensation when doing something enjoyable and being rewarded by the drug, like listening to music, only comes with significant SNS activity. Some of the sexual advantages as well and are indicated by some vasoc symptoms which are due to the SNS activity.

In many cases the highest or extreme levels of euphoria only come at those times as well.

Due to this i often reliably use pupil dilation and the level of of shrinkage downstairs as an indicator of where i am in the high and what is possible, whats not and how to manage or proceed further.

I think also having done lots of pure phara ephedrine when i was younger i know exactly what that side of things feels like, and its not to bad by itself at all. The prickly skin and awesome scalp sensations for example are all SNS and thats a big part of the amp high.

The big bad guy is actually our friend? WTF is going on here. We have been lied to all this time.