Opioids Are we fooling ourselves about Kratom's risks?

[Muzda Jonxx]

Is tapering a good method to get off of it? I have never done that. Usually at night if I want to take a break I just go cold turkey and drink tea. But it is hard and I think about it a lot... I think I should look into tapering.

Sounds like a plan. Usually the easiest way off anything addictive. Just be prepared to feel a bit antsy whilst you're tapering. Still vastly preferable to full blown wd, imo.

 

[dus_aster]

And I NEVER "speculated it could be more dangerous than heroin", I think that is EXTREMELY unlikely."


You did, though :v
"Could the harms of Kratom be WORSE than even Heroin??"
Unless you consider harm and danger mutually exclusive
Not trying to start anything, but I think it's important to not lose our perspective and fall prey to confirmation biases; a scientific inquiry requires complete removal of bias, and, with all do respect, perhaps your bias is a little clouded by your own use? Not saying that your findings or points are irrelevant, but it seems worth mentioning.

 

[scarlet_tunic]

Sounds like a plan. Usually the easiest way off anything addictive. Just be prepared to feel a bit antsy whilst you're tapering. Still vastly preferable to full blown wd, imo.

Today when I came home at 11:30 pm I was prepared not to do it, but I only made this promise because of my BF. However when my BF went to sleep, I made a cup of kratom.. haha Right now I average 7 - 8 grams a night, usually 3 teaspoons a night. I honestly don't find this to be a HUGE deal. I would prefer to take breaks when I want to take them, not when someone feels it is appropriate for me to take them. Honestly, sometimes I'll go a whole week doing it, and only break after 7 - 8 straight days. And that is still OK, because the same amount still hits me the SAME way. As long as I'm not getting crazy big with my doses, I don't find it to be a problem. If I am not building a tolerance...

I understand if I am pregnant / have a kid or other responsibilities I need to deal with, but I don't find doing it in the evenings to be a super huge deal.

 

[Kottonmouth]

What the hell, kratom is awesome and it is helping a lot of junkies like myself stay off of heroin. Would you rather experience some (IMO bullshit) hormonal imbalance, or keep people off of opiates and/or benzo's? Heroin kills people, this shit doesn't. So, which one is worse? I don't care if it's untested, even the FDA hasn't stopped any shipments that are properly labeled (I get 100 kilo's at a time) so... It's basically the definition of HARM REDUCTION and fuck that bullshit in the OP that this is worse than heroin. The fuck??

Did you even research this plant at all? It has been used by many people HEAVILY for people's whole lives in asian countries. How many heroin addicts do you see make it to age 80??? LoL. Sorry if i sound like an asshole but in no way is this shit as harmful as ANY other opiates. The wd for me is quick and painless too(depression is main symptom), even though I will never stop taking this herb unless forced to for various reasons. I feel better when I'm on it, & I take 13ish g's of plain leaf and a G of 100x extract every 5 hours I'm awake. It makes me feel awesome and kills my back pain (that i was RX'ed oxycontin for for years, then turned to heroin after doctors cut me off for no goddamn reason), & it helps with anxiety/depression among other things. I dunno, I'm just glad the FDA doesn't think like you do OP. Otherwise it would make MANY ppl like me get back on the subutex/methadone/heroin cycle I was on for 13 years or so. The pro's FAR FAR FAR outweigh the cons.

 

[Kottonmouth]

Oh, Burn out, dude it is easy to taper off of, I've been forced to quit a couple times and it wasn't that bad even at the doses I'm taking. I don't get hot/cold, nausea, anything but becoming insanely pissed off and depressed (and energy being low). I guess that sucks, but I never wanted to be off of it in the first place either. That mighta contributed a little to the pissed off part, lol... but depression/lack of energy DOES suck. I'll give it that much but... any other drugs I've ever been on have produced a far worse WD... (Benzos, barbituates, soma, synthetic cannabinoids {AB-Chmica was terrible}, even sleeping meds and SSRI's.) But everyone is different, YMMV I guess, or maybe some people just haven't been through bad withdraws. Most have but...damn codeine produces a worse WD IMO and codeine is very weak.

 

[Mycophile]

How can Kratom be considered 'safe' when it directly led to me having a heavy decade long addiction to opiates that I'm only now just clawing my way out of? My life has been forever changed for the worse, and Kratom was very much that important first link.

Yeah but that's not really fair man.

That's the whole "gateway drug" theory.

That's like saying weed isn't safe because it eventually led to you doing heroin.

I mean it is often true that drug users move from one drug to another, but you can't blame the effects of another drug on the fact that you started with Kratom.

They need to be viewed separately IMO.

 

[Mycophile]

HAHA, yeah.. It's the drugs fault... I'm sure Kratom made me a fuckup... 8) ANYWAY...

To the OP, Opiates are pretty safe except addiction and dependence which can lead to suicidal depression, that being said, I would not use kratom for a recreational drug, I tried that before being hooked on heroin and it did nothing.

After being hooked on opiates, Kratom saved my functionality. Meaning, It left me able to function by being an opiate maintenance therapy. There is nothing safer or greater available.

Anyone who uses Kratom recreationally may very well be ruining it for the rest of us.

I'm going to completely disagree with you.

Why shouldn't I and others have the right to use it recreationally??

Not to mention that it is HUGELY beneficial to my anxiety and depression (except for when I'm coming down and in withdrawal).

Sorry, I'll do Kratom when I want to regardless of no prior opiate addiction.

I'm not ruining it for anyone and if the government makes it illegal because there are recreational users (lets hope it doesn't happen) then it was the government's stupidity that ruined it, not recreational users or people who use it to self medicate for anxiety and depression like myself.

 

[Mycophile]

And I NEVER "speculated it could be more dangerous than heroin", I think that is EXTREMELY unlikely."


You did, though :v
"Could the harms of Kratom be WORSE than even Heroin??"
Unless you consider harm and danger mutually exclusive
Not trying to start anything, but I think it's important to not lose our perspective and fall prey to confirmation biases; a scientific inquiry requires complete removal of bias, and, with all do respect, perhaps your bias is a little clouded by your own use? Not saying that your findings or points are irrelevant, but it seems worth mentioning.

I ASKED THE QUESTION at an odd moment when I wasn't thinking clearly, but I never STATED that in ANY WAY I even REMOTELY thought it could be close to as bad as heroin.

That was the equivalent of a brain fart on a keyboard lol.

 

[Mycophile]

What the hell, kratom is awesome and it is helping a lot of junkies like myself stay off of heroin. Would you rather experience some (IMO bullshit) hormonal imbalance, or keep people off of opiates and/or benzo's? Heroin kills people, this shit doesn't. So, which one is worse? I don't care if it's untested, even the FDA hasn't stopped any shipments that are properly labeled (I get 100 kilo's at a time) so... It's basically the definition of HARM REDUCTION and fuck that bullshit in the OP that this is worse than heroin. The fuck??

Did you even research this plant at all? It has been used by many people HEAVILY for people's whole lives in asian countries. How many heroin addicts do you see make it to age 80??? LoL. Sorry if i sound like an asshole but in no way is this shit as harmful as ANY other opiates. The wd for me is quick and painless too(depression is main symptom), even though I will never stop taking this herb unless forced to for various reasons. I feel better when I'm on it, & I take 13ish g's of plain leaf and a G of 100x extract every 5 hours I'm awake. It makes me feel awesome and kills my back pain (that i was RX'ed oxycontin for for years, then turned to heroin after doctors cut me off for no goddamn reason), & it helps with anxiety/depression among other things. I dunno, I'm just glad the FDA doesn't think like you do OP. Otherwise it would make MANY ppl like me get back on the subutex/methadone/heroin cycle I was on for 13 years or so. The pro's FAR FAR FAR outweigh the cons.

Dude, you TOTALLY fucking misunderstand me.

First off, I have an anxiety disorder and when I get in bad states and have panic attacks regarding ANYTHING the shit can come off sounding really bad even because I a not thinking clearly and it comes out wrong on paper if I type it up so that's basically what happened here.

Regardless of what ANYONE thinks I NEVER STATED I thought it was as dangerous as other opiates.

What I was doing was questioning whether or not it has certain dangers, and to be honest if you think it has ZERO dangers and ZERO negative side effects you are probably living in a dream world cause even weed does.

It STILL hasn't been properly tested, but I hope it is and I hope it stays legal forever.

i was freaking out when I started this thread and have since calmed down and I FUCKING LOVE Kratom.

It helps me with my anxiety and depression IMMENSELY except for when I'm in withdrawal.

But the problem is people like you when they won't even QUESTION any downside to a drug.

It's like all the potheads who think weed can't POSSIBLY have any harmful side effects and is god's gift to the earth when it's not.

And by the way I also LOVE weed.

But ALL drugs have dangers and IMO ALL of them, including Heroin, should be legalized in every country in the world.

You don't seem to understand much about my true perspective and I've been enjoying Kratom for 2 years now, but some people on Reddit succeeded in freaking me out while I was in withdrawal and having a panic attack and I reacted badly and posted this thread.

That STILL doesn't mean there's not a shred of truth to questioning the possible side effects of a drug, and when people are talking about losing their hair and getting hormonal imbalances from it there might possibly be something to be concerned about for those people.

As for me, I still Love Kratom and will still take it from time to time, but just because you are willing to shoot junk which has far worse side effects shouldn't mean you are blind to any possible side effects of Kratom or for that matter fucking Tylenol or Advil which have negative side effects too.

 

[Mycophile]

And I also want to say that after 2 years of dabbling with Kratom I've done better than most.

I've talked to people who said that two years after their first dose they were dosing 3 times a day everyday for those 2 years and couldn't sleep through the night without waking up to take more from withdrawal, but I've still never taken Kratom more than 4 days a week and any withdrawal I get is very mild.

So if you want to talk about someone who's learned to use the drug in such a way as to not get a serious daily dependency (despite some mild WDs) and who's been able to stop for 90 days in a row at the drop of a hat, then look no further.

Kratom is a wonderful herb, but it could still use more research, and I'd be dumb to ignore some of the statements people have made online about the side effects it's caused them.

I don't expect to ever experience those myself though, especially since whenever I start to use too much I stop for a while.

I hope it stays legal where I live and everywhere else and it has MASSIVE potential as a medicinal herb not just for opiate addicts but people with anxiety and depression and probably other disorders.

 

[Kottonmouth]

Damn cuz, I thought you hated the shit by your OP... It sounded like you were bashing the hell out of the shit, then saying you were on it, lol-I didn't know what to think at first, i thought you were mad at it, but then you basically said it wasn't shit to you to jump on and off of. But, saying it was worse than heroin?? Not even 0.00001% true... Posts on a forum are just a brief glimpse into a persons perspective on shit though.

It's true anxiety/depression get raised by WD from kratom (I chalk it up as something that sucks to be off of too) but the long-term users in Asia were pretty much fine after a median time of 20 years, except some had like, tinted skin pigmentation stuff i read about. Kinda weird but ok, I'm already white as shit i need a tan! How many junkies go 20 years using every day? It is also good for meth and coke addicts too, most likely a white-vein (not red).

I'm able to stop for any amount of time i have to as well, but it sucks bc I have chronic pain+anxiety/depression/lowenergy anyways. I use kratom heavily every 5 hours (13g PL+ 1g 100x extract) and stay on the same dose for forever (and even start at that dose too). Never had to wake up to dose though. A lot of kratom doesn't test as high as mine does (in 7-OHM + Mitrigynine) though.

I'm glad you see the medical potentials of kratom, this is an interesting read... http://news.olemiss.edu/new-hope-for-addicts/ Big pharma is losing a lot of money bc of kratom now, but they stand to MAKE a shitload if they keep testing it like they are.

But yeah man I remember you from other posts now, (bc when i read them i was like, mycophile = Mycelium(??) = RUMORS OF SHROOOMERS!!) you seem like a cool dude, I haven't ever seen your posts and thought "NO! NONONO!!" Damn that one statement tho, lol. Other stuff mighta had some truth to it though for some people, just not very many at all from what I've seen when there are millions of people eating it

 

[mike.vick]

I'm going to completely disagree with you.

Why shouldn't I and others have the right to use it recreationally??

Not to mention that it is HUGELY beneficial to my anxiety and depression (except for when I'm coming down and in withdrawal).

Sorry, I'll do Kratom when I want to regardless of no prior opiate addiction.

I'm not ruining it for anyone and if the government makes it illegal because there are recreational users (lets hope it doesn't happen) then it was the government's stupidity that ruined it, not recreational users or people who use it to self medicate for anxiety and depression like myself.

Thats not recreational purpose.

 

[mike.vick]

What the hell, kratom is awesome and it is helping a lot of junkies like myself stay off of heroin. Would you rather experience some (IMO bullshit) hormonal imbalance, or keep people off of opiates and/or benzo's? Heroin kills people, this shit doesn't. So, which one is worse? I don't care if it's untested, even the FDA hasn't stopped any shipments that are properly labeled (I get 100 kilo's at a time) so... It's basically the definition of HARM REDUCTION and fuck that bullshit in the OP that this is worse than heroin. The fuck??

Did you even research this plant at all? It has been used by many people HEAVILY for people's whole lives in asian countries. How many heroin addicts do you see make it to age 80??? LoL. Sorry if i sound like an asshole but in no way is this shit as harmful as ANY other opiates. The wd for me is quick and painless too(depression is main symptom), even though I will never stop taking this herb unless forced to for various reasons. I feel better when I'm on it, & I take 13ish g's of plain leaf and a G of 100x extract every 5 hours I'm awake. It makes me feel awesome and kills my back pain (that i was RX'ed oxycontin for for years, then turned to heroin after doctors cut me off for no goddamn reason), & it helps with anxiety/depression among other things. I dunno, I'm just glad the FDA doesn't think like you do OP. Otherwise it would make MANY ppl like me get back on the subutex/methadone/heroin cycle I was on for 13 years or so. The pro's FAR FAR FAR outweigh the cons.

Completely agree.

 

[Prescottdave]

I get extremely sick for over 24 hours from even a few grams of kratom. Like vomiting every 10 minutes for the duration of the experience . The first time I took it I thought I had gotten food poisoning. Tried it again at a micro dose and felt sick for the entire day. Like sides hurting possible liver damage sick. Unfortunately I cant really use this plant. Otherwise my liver is completely healthy. Just checked it recently and it was fine.

The first time I took Kratom I was on a long flight to another country. I stayed in the bathroom for most of the plane ride. Surprisingly after the experience my tolerance had come down. I took a half of a tramadol and then slept for two days. Woke up feeling WD free which was unusual at the time.

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

I get extremely sick for over 24 hours from even a few grams of kratom. Like vomiting every 10 minutes for the duration of the experience . The first time I took it I thought I had gotten food poisoning. Tried it again at a micro dose and felt sick for the entire day. Like sides hurting possible liver damage sick. Unfortunately I cant really use this plant. Otherwise my liver is completely healthy. Just checked it recently and it was fine.

The first time I took Kratom I was on a long flight to another country. I stayed in the bathroom for most of the plane ride. Surprisingly after the experience my tolerance had come down. I took a half of a tramadol and then slept for two days. Woke up feeling WD free which was unusual at the time.

Was it maybe kicking whatever else you were on off the receptors (a la subutex) and throwing you into some kind of precipitated wd. No idea what affinity the actives in Kratom have for the opiate receptors.

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

Yeah but that's not really fair man.

That's the whole "gateway drug" theory.

That's like saying weed isn't safe because it eventually led to you doing heroin.

I mean it is often true that drug users move from one drug to another, but you can't blame the effects of another drug on the fact that you started with Kratom.

They need to be viewed separately IMO.

Weed ain't going to lead to heroin. Kratom tickles the opiate receptors. Kratom extracts massage them. FST was every bit as powerful as the more hardcore opiates. So imo it can very easily lead into the stronger drugs because it does almost exactly the same job.

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

Weed ain't going to lead to heroin. Kratom tickles the opiate receptors. Kratom extracts massage them. FST was every bit as powerful as the more hardcore opiates. So imo it can very easily lead into the stronger drugs because it does almost exactly the same job.

FYI the process for me went Kratom - Kratom FST - codeine - dhc - pods - oxy - subutex - heroin - pods - subutex - pod seeds - clean (for now). So you see which was first in that chain.

 

[Prescottdave]

Muzda firstly I have never actually been sick to my stomach or puked during WD. This includes precipitated WD from taking sub 24 hours after methadone or fent WD. I have tested my reaction to kratom several times. One time I had no tolerance and was not dependent. Same result. Each time I got extremely sick. One time I tried to bridge the gap for a few days from tramadol using kratom. It held my WD's at bay but the sick feeling like you have food poisoning was still just as bad.

I can tell when I am in WD and when I am having a reaction to a new drug. Kratom makes me extremely sick for the duration of the effects. I believe my liver can not handle the alkaloids in the plant. I have found several studies of others who have had serious reactions including liver damage from taking kratom only a few times. This type of reaction is rare but also well documented.

 

[Prescottdave]

Weed ain't going to lead to heroin. Kratom tickles the opiate receptors. Kratom extracts massage them. FST was every bit as powerful as the more hardcore opiates. So imo it can very easily lead into the stronger drugs because it does almost exactly the same job.

The alkaloids in kratom are not known for precipitating opiate WD. As well I imagine the affinity of other opiates compared to those in kratom are much higher. Kratom has full agonist effects on the receptors just like other opiates. It is actually known to reduce WD when taken just a few hours after a full agonist.

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

The alkaloids in kratom are not known for precipitating opiate WD. As well I imagine the affinity of other opiates compared to those in kratom are much higher. Kratom has full agonist effects on the receptors just like other opiates. It is actually known to reduce WD when taken just a few hours after a full agonist.

Oh well, bang goes that theory then!

It's interesting, you're not the only person to have suffered such a nasty reaction to the stuff. Wonder what causes it..?