Are humans made to naturally eat meat

[birdup]

if you have a child, and you tell them well this chicken we're eating is from the one we had in the backyard that you were playing with the last couple months, its probably not gonna go over too well, and that's in it's simplest form

I always tell my 3 year old what animal she is eating. If we go to the petting zoo, I talk to her about where meat comes from while she is petting animals. Maybe when she's 4 or 5 this will be an issue, but it hasn't proved difficult so far.

Did your grandfathers butchery upset you?

My grandfather was a fisherman. I never thought twice.

 

[birdup]

@extropy

I think raising young children as vegan is akin to child abuse.

Breast milk is an animal product.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

I always tell my 3 year old what animal she is eating. If we go to the petting zoo, I talk to her about where meat comes from while she is petting animals. Maybe when she's 4 or 5 this will be an issue, but it hasn't proved difficult so far.

Did your grandfathers butchery upset you?

My grandfather was a fisherman. I never thought twice.

My kid knows...she gets it....but we're just not eating the chickens in the backyard so it's a little different

No i used to love watching him butcher up a deer

fish are stupid too so i dont care about them either - they're supposed to be eaten

 

[Higherfocus420]

People eat raw meat all over the world not just fish but beef and a lot of other meats also eggs and unpasteurized milk. Plus there's all kinds of ways of curing or using various non Heat preparation processes to destroy potential parasites which are rare anyway in the muscles of animals. Good luck with being a vegetarian. Remember to listen to your body in a non-judgmental way. Just because you think meat is bad, and certainly some ways a factory farming it are horrendous, you have to weigh against the millions of years of wisdom in the cells and organs of your body

Fuck eating raw meat just no that smells grim and can sometimes make you really ill

 

[extropy]

Both.

ok

I would argue electricity is now necessary for a society to reach even greater states of Well Being for All. Nuclear fusion is real possibility.. We can boot strap this system, tinker with it slightly. electricity/the internet have so much potential for good, but of course it’s a double edged sword.

with crop deaths, you still have the right to remove any being by force from your property, hopefully using the least amount of force necessary. The pests are committing a property rights violation so you can remove them. And by going vegan you actually reduce crop deaths because less needs to be grown as most of it is for the animals anyway. And have you seen these multi story crop farms? All indoors, growing tons of staple veg with no pest death!

As for your question, yes I have the "right" to eat meat whatever that means. I am not a functional enough person to stop consuming animal products right now. I've tried and failed so many times. I have other priorities.

I didn’t say that. I said ‘do you think you have the right to kill an animal for sense pleasure?’

Scallops have nerves so they might feel pain. That's not a very solid argument. Plants have their own version of nerves. They are more distant from us than scallops, so we assume that they are not sentient. Personally, I think scallops are closer to broccoli than they are to monkeys in terms of sentience. It is quite extreme to not eat scallops because they might feel harm, when there is no (decent) scientific studies to back that up.

I agree it’s not the most solid argument, like I said, with scallops, we’re kinda in a moral grey area. The fact is they’re animals, and they (c’mon guy….) most likely feel pain. So I try to avoid burdening them with any. Nerves feel pain, right?

Plants have their own version of nerves, well I’m with you, but they’re not the same as ours. It makes it harder for us to empathise. Do I really need to slice up a cucumber and a cute little piggie, in front of you, so we can see where the imbalance of pain lies? Bringing up plant nerves is a bit of a reach.

Veganism makes less sense to me than sentientism, which is probably what I will eventually settle on. It always made the most sense to me.

You would go for sentientism, that’s fair play. There’s quite a lot of debate in the vegan community about what exactly is veganism. Its not as clear cut as ‘don’t harm animals’ (which is the essential core), it does get into the weeds. A poster here referenced a debate between two vegans arguing as to whether we as vegans, can kill carnivorous animals?!

So whether I’m a ‘true’ vegan or not, according to some nuanced definition, I don’t know. I simply try limit the amount of suffering/distress I cause to my environment or other beings as I reasonably can. Sometimes a minor immoral act, may be for the greater good, like with vaccines for example.

I apologise for name dropping you in other posts, I got a little out there.

 

[extropy]

@extropy

I think raising young children as vegan is akin to child abuse.

what about raising your kids as sentientists?

Breast milk is an animal product.

Yeh but you’re supposed to stop drinking that at 2.

 

[extropy]

it's ok to eat eggs because they aren't baby chicks yet right?

Sorry, eggs are a no no bud! 99% of eggs are factory farmed, and day old male chicks are chucked in a macerator alive because they are useless for laying eggs. The dead baby chicken meat then gets sold in processed foods like nuggets by the meat industry anyway. There is no real separation between the dairy and meat industries.

Could you own a small farm with a few chickens who produce eggs according to their natural biological cycle, sure. you, may be able/lucky enough to (not having a go, I love farms, im a country boy). But is that really sustainable for everyone? Could we give everyone in london, everyone who’s crammed in there, a chicken farm for themselves? I wish that could be the case, honestly.

 

[darvocet21]

Fuck eating raw meat just no that smells grim and can sometimes make you really ill

That's why I avoid gas station sushi although Casino sushi is the bomb.

 

[birdup]

what about raising your kids as sentientists?

What is abusive about that?

I didn’t say that. I said ‘do you think you have the right to kill an animal for sense pleasure?’

Pretty difficult to eat an animal without it becoming dead.

The fact is they’re animals, and they (c’mon guy….) most likely feel pain.

No, they almost certainly don't suffer from pain. Nerves don't equal pain. Nerves plus a brain equal pain. They don't have a brain. They react like plants. There is no trauma. I don't see the harm.

Yeh but you’re supposed to stop drinking that at 2.

My daughter is 3 and she's still on the tit.

So whether I’m a ‘true’ vegan or not, according to some nuanced definition, I don’t know. I simply try limit the amount of suffering/distress I cause to my environment or other beings as I reasonably can. Sometimes a minor immoral act, may be for the greater good, like with vaccines for example.

Me too. I eat meat ethically.

There is no real separation between the dairy and meat industries.

Agreed.

 

[extropy]

What is abusive about that?

i didn't mean to imply it was abusive. i like the idea. you know with veganism and sentientism, we're pretty darn close right?

Pretty difficult to eat an animal without it becoming dead.

so you do think killing an animal for sense pleasure is ok. i disagree, and would go so far as to say you're objectively wrong on this point.

No, they almost certainly don't suffer from pain. Nerves don't equal pain. Nerves plus a brain equal pain. They don't have a brain. They react like plants. There is no trauma. I don't see the harm.

see, this is a hill i'm not prepared to die on. i do see your point. i should look into this scallop thing a little more.

My daughter is 3 and she's still on the tit.

ok i dont have kids so i'm in no position to judge. i just thought it was that kinda age.

Me too. I eat meat ethically.

to me that's a contradiction. how is killing for sense pleasure ethical?

 

[birdup]

so you do think killing an animal for sense pleasure is ok.

@extropy

I don't like it when people rephrase what I say. We would have to break down your wording to determine whether or not I agree with the statement.

I think it's okay to kill certain animals just for the fun of it.

There's no objectivity when it comes to right and wrong. If you think you are objectively right, why have a discussion?

Vegans are fundamentalists. They ignore the spectrum of sentience.

The most immoral/unethical thing to eat is humans. The closer to you, the more difficult it is. Your own baby is the closest human to you. Almost impossible to eat them. They're so damn cute.

Next after humans, come apes and monkeys. People think the idea of eating them is disgusting, because they're less foreign to us. We can see too much of ourselves in them.

This is the spectrum more or less:

Baby Meat > Human Meat > Ape Meat & Monkey Meat > Other mammals > Bird Meat > Fish Meat > Insects > Molluscs > Plants

I just realized, I don't think I've ever eaten a reptile.

Got to pop that on the old bucket list.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

Sorry, eggs are a no no bud! 99% of eggs are factory farmed, and day old male chicks are chucked in a macerator alive because they are useless for laying eggs. The dead baby chicken meat then gets sold in processed foods like nuggets by the meat industry anyway. There is no real separation between the dairy and meat industries.

Could you own a small farm with a few chickens who produce eggs according to their natural biological cycle, sure. you, may be able/lucky enough to (not having a go, I love farms, im a country boy). But is that really sustainable for everyone? Could we give everyone in london, everyone who’s crammed in there, a chicken farm for themselves? I wish that could be the case, honestly.

I buy Happy Eggs from happy chickens - they run around and shit

eggs are the ultimate food source - especially the yolks

liver - that's another one...but im good on the organ meats

 

[JoshLobbs]

Are humans actually evolved to eat meat as we are the only animal that has too cook it I've recently stopped eating meat and haven't really missed it were we ever really ment to eat it

"We cant process starch properly without cooking it first. Therefore we should only eat fruit."

Is the logical extreme of that.

Imo:
We are designed to eat meat.
We should eat meat because it's good for you.
Meat tastes good so I wont stop eating it.

 

[ovenbakedskittles]

Are humans actually evolved to eat meat as we are the only animal that has too cook it I've recently stopped eating meat and haven't really missed it were we ever really ment to eat it

It is a necessary stage in human evolution that we are meant to grow out of in the future. Eventually everyone will become vegan and psychic. It is a natural byproduct of self realization and actualization on a collective level which leads to the revelation of us being one with the universe and one with everything around us.

If we have that awareness of oneness it is impossible to murder and kill and consume animals without feeling like we are ultimately killing and eating ourselves.

To be honest we won’t even need to eat food at a certain point. We will be developed enough to sustain ourselves by absorbing energy from the sun and the fundamental light and momentum that charges up the universe and is responsible for the Big Bang.

 

[extropy]

@extropy

I don't like it when people rephrase what I say. We would have to break down your wording to determine whether or not I agree with the statement.

With respect, you were the one that rephrased my initial question. It didn’t really need breaking down, it’s a simple yes or no.

and how am i rephrasing what you say when in the next comment (below) you even admit it?

I think it's okay to kill certain animals just for the fun of it.

which animals do you like killing for fun? Is that position compatible with your desired goal of Sentientism?

There's no objectivity when it comes to right and wrong.

I happen to believe we can make objective truth claims, grounded in the Cogito. amongst humans, we clearly see a pattern trending toward greater well being. we can call this pattern Morality. from there we can attempt to make statements about this pattern. say for example i were to claim 'any involuntary imposition of Will is objectively immoral' do you not think all humans could agree on that?

If you think you are objectively right, why have a discussion?

because others need correcting.

Vegans are fundamentalists. They ignore the spectrum of sentience.

wouldn’t the spectrum for sentientists simply be those that who have subjective experience, and those who don’t? So you wouldn’t be able to abuse any of the animals up until molluscs, they would all be considered sentient right?

The most immoral/unethical thing to eat is humans. The closer to you, the more difficult it is. Your own baby is the closest human to you. Almost impossible to eat them. They're so damn cute.

is it immoral if they are 2 consenting adults? and regardless of the morality it’s actually dangerous to eat human meat because of the prions

 

[extropy]

I buy Happy Eggs from happy chickens - they run around and shit

do you mean free range eggs? because you bet you bottom dollar i have a smart alec reply for that one too heh. but i'm honestly not trying to be 'that vegan'

 

[birdup]

Sentience is the wrong word but you know what I mean. Animals have different capacities for suffering depending on the species as best as we can tell. I haven't been hunting for a long time but shooting kangaroos is lots of fun. They're overpopulated so I don't see how there's an ethical issue. I've heard a lot of vegans over the years make blanket comments about all animals. Killing molluscs and insects for food is closer to killing a plant so you can eat it than a cow. Fish aren't the same as people.

say for example i were to claim 'any involuntary imposition of Will is objectively immoral' do you not think all humans could agree on that?

No.

With respect, you were the one that rephrased my initial question. It didn’t really need breaking down, it’s a simple yes or no.

I rephrased your question because the way you worded it doesn't represent my perspective. You keep repeating some weird phrase. Something like sense pleasures.

I don't eat meat for sense pleasures. I don't even know what that means.

you even admit it?

I said it's okay to kill some animals for sport. When there is a wild population like kangaroos that are overpopulated. I used to shoot then on a farm because they're pests.

 

[extropy]

Sentience is the wrong word but you know what I mean. Animals have different capacities for suffering depending on the species as best as we can tell. I haven't been hunting for a long time but shooting kangaroos is lots of fun. They're overpopulated so I don't see how there's an ethical issue. I've heard a lot of vegans over the years make blanket comments about all animals. Killing molluscs and insects for food is closer to killing a plant so you can eat it than a cow. Fish aren't the same as people.

No.

why not? what if we met an alien species that had harmonised, and could travel the stars in peace. would that point the existence of this possible objective standard/pattern we've discovered?

I rephrased your question because the way you worded it doesn't represent my perspective. You keep repeating some weird phrase. Something like sense pleasures.

you rephrased my question because it hurt your fee fee's admit it heh.

I don't eat meat for sense pleasures. I don't even know what that means.

eating meat for sense pleasure is simply eating it when you don't need to. and you don't. so surely you're doing it for sense pleasure? unless there's a reason i'm unaware of?

I said it's okay to kill some animals for sport. When there is a wild population like kangaroos that are overpopulated.

i would like to think hunting should be seen as a pragmatic last resort, not really something we should be having fun over. we're finding better ways of doing that too with sterilisation but that's a tricky topic. but we're learning.

 

[extropy]

^i meant to say yeh i get what you're saying under the first quote @birdup

 

[birdup]

I rephrased the question because it was a loaded. I've already explained that I tried to go vegan a number of times throughout my adult life and I cannot do it. I've struggled with addiction and mental health issues. While struggling with them, I tried to stop consuming meat. In the end, after going back and forth, I concluded that it's not sustainable for me.

I also have some digestive issues which mean I need to eat small quantities of food. This is borderline impossible on a vegan diet.

Sterilization isn't better.

Hunting is fine. There's nothing wrong with that.

I eat meat because I'm an omnivore.

Nothing wrong with that either.

We don't "have to" do all sorts of shit. You don't have to use a computer or a phone or whatever you're using right now. It's not good for the environment. You are contributing in all sorts of ways to the death of animals.

There is blood on everyone's hands.

eating meat for sense pleasure is simply eating it when you don't need to. and you don't. so surely you're doing it for sense pleasure? unless there's a reason i'm unaware of?

That's not what sense pleasure means.

If we were rabbits and you found me chewing on a steak, then this would make more sense to me.