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Anyone tried a preworkout called Hydrazine?

The Charmer

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I got a sample of this from a friend and f*** me if it wasn’t like the second coming of OG Craze by DS.

Has anyone here tried it as I think it’s genuinely a good alternative to a wide variety of drugs because of its nootropic/focus/energy effects?
 

The Charmer

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Red Leader - To be honest, the best stimulant based supplements all had prop blends (jack3d, craze, slim xtreme, venom hyperdrive).

Still, if you’re a guy looking for ergogenics rather than stims, then it’s probably not gonna be for you.
 

Swim15

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About 50-75mg of straight DMAA or 120-150mg DMHA with some beta alanine is also a fantastic/simple pre
 

Vastness

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Doesn't look that great to me if this ingredients list is accurate:
Bauhinia Purpurea Leaf and Pod Extract
Caffeine
Anhydrous Cymbidium Goeringii extract
Kigelia Africana Extract
Gelatin
Magnesium Stearate
About the only thing there that has any proven, perceptible stimulant effect there (to my knowledge) is caffeine.

Pretty much all proprietary blends are just built around a base stimulant that provides the majority of the effect (nowadays usually caffeine, historically sometimes something more hazardous), and everything else is just marketing, plus maybe a teeny tiny bit of vague anecdotal research mixed with the personal opinions of the creator(s). The above ingredients list is a case in point, it's highly unlikely those random extracts really add much to the effect, although maybe a minority of people are more sensitive to them for some reason or another, and they potentiate caffeine in some way (maybe! - I'm not completely discounting some kind of marketing-influenced placebo here).

I highly doubt it has any real advantage over caffeine alone, unless it has some other unlisted ingredient, which if it does, is something you should be concerned about.
 

RedLeader

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Red Leader - To be honest, the best stimulant based supplements all had prop blends (jack3d, craze, slim xtreme, venom hyperdrive).

Still, if you’re a guy looking for ergogenics rather than stims, then it’s probably not gonna be for you.
Jack3d was good, so was the original Black Market Labs pre...becuae of the DMAA. But there have been (and still are) preWOs on the market that contain DMAA but are not proprietary. Same logic holds for anything else: give me a great proprietary blend and I will find a non-proprietary containing the same ingredients.

There is no reason for a company to make a proprietary blend unless it is being shady with amounts or trying to hide something like meth or a PH.
 

Swim15

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There is no reason for a company to make a proprietary blend unless it is being shady with amounts or trying to hide something like meth or a PH.
You realize every product in the consumer market that's consumable is a proprietary blend, right? There's absolutely a reason if a company found a good combo of ingredients/quantities then having them on the label literally hands the formula to their competition. It's slightly different in the supplement world since every company only has so many ingredients to work with but I just formulated a pre workout for a nutrition company that is hands down the best I've ever used with same feedback from consumer tests so far. From the formulators perspective, I wish that there was an even better way to hide stuff
 

Genetic Freak

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I got a sample of this from a friend and f*** me if it wasn’t like the second coming of OG Craze by DS.

Has anyone here tried it as I think it’s genuinely a good alternative to a wide variety of drugs because of its nootropic/focus/energy effects?
Do your own research:

Bauhinia Purpurea Extract (leaf and pod)
Cacao Extract (fruit)
Caffeine Anhydrous
Cymbidium Goeringii Extract (whole plant)
Kigelia Africana Extract (fruit)
 

RedLeader

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You realize every product in the consumer market that's consumable is a proprietary blend, right? There's absolutely a reason if a company found a good combo of ingredients/quantities then having them on the label literally hands the formula to their competition. It's slightly different in the supplement world since every company only has so many ingredients to work with but I just formulated a pre workout for a nutrition company that is hands down the best I've ever used with same feedback from consumer tests so far. From the formulators perspective, I wish that there was an even better way to hide stuff
Fair points about proprietary blends, guys. I was being a bit ignorant on the topic and I apologize. I really was only seeing such blends as masking ineffective doses, but I understand the legal argument. I will stop seeing it as such a one-dimensional thing, and take other factors into consideration before passing judgement.
 

Swim15

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Fair points about proprietary blends, guys. I was being a bit ignorant on the topic and I apologize. I really was only seeing such blends as masking ineffective doses, but I understand the legal argument. I will stop seeing it as such a one-dimensional thing, and take other factors into consideration before passing judgement.

Well I was coming from a different perspective obviously. The one you have isn't invalid because companies in the industry are such pieces of shit lol. If we fixed that problem then it wouldn't matter so much
 

RedLeader

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Well I was coming from a different perspective obviously. The one you have isn't invalid because companies in the industry are such pieces of shit lol. If we fixed that problem then it wouldn't matter so much
I assume it's hard keeping retail cost down if high quality ingredients are used. Especially if sold in retail stores where more entities want cuts of the profit along the way.

I do listen to the podcasts of Mike Matthews, who is the founder of Legion. You've probably heard his name in the supplement industry at some point? He is extremely vocal against proprietary blends, and I think I let him influence me.

I am curious about the stuff your company makes, as you speak highly of them. Are the supplements such thst I could purchase online at this time? Maybe PM me a link if so? (or not if you really want as much anonymity as possible)
 

Vastness

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I just formulated a pre workout for a nutrition company that is hands down the best I've ever used with same feedback from consumer tests so far.
Without knocking your own expertise in any area, I highly doubt that if marketing was taken out of the equation, there would be any real, measurable difference in performance, results or even just subjective enjoyment between your own formulation and, say, a couple of caffeine pills and literally any bog standard protein/creatine mix with a nice flavouring... and this is true for every pre/post/during-workout blend ever created except those containing a stimulant that isn't caffeine.

As far as nutrition goes, perhaps different blends could confer long term benefits, but to verify this would take long term studies of the kind that few companies are going to bother with. Because why would they? Pre-workouts aren't advertised as helping you stay incrementally healthier over a period of months to years by virtue of their nutritional content, because people don't generally care about that. They're advertised as giving increased PERFORMANCE, NOW... which is generally not possible with any blend of fancy sounding herbal extracts, unless a stimulant is involved.
 

Swim15

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Without knocking your own expertise in any area, I highly doubt that if marketing was taken out of the equation, there would be any real, measurable difference in performance, results or even just subjective enjoyment between your own formulation and, say, a couple of caffeine pills and literally any bog standard protein/creatine mix with a nice flavouring... and this is true for every pre/post/during-workout blend ever created except those containing a stimulant that isn't caffeine.

As far as nutrition goes, perhaps different blends could confer long term benefits, but to verify this would take long term studies of the kind that few companies are going to bother with. Because why would they? Pre-workouts aren't advertised as helping you stay incrementally healthier over a period of months to years by virtue of their nutritional content, because people don't generally care about that. They're advertised as giving increased PERFORMANCE, NOW... which is generally not possible with any blend of fancy sounding herbal extracts, unless a stimulant is involved.
I worked very hard on an extremely synergistic blend of stimulants combined of chatecholamine releasing and reuptake inhibiting agents that is significantly more effective than caffeine. Obviously I have no clincal trials to support this, just smashed PRs by me and lots of friends with years of other pre workouts to compare to.
 

Swim15

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@RedLeader, I'll actually be parting ways with them soon most likely due to shitty management and breach of my contract multiple times.

Feel free to PM me if you want though
 

Vastness

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DMAA > caffeine

I don't know what is in swim's blend, but I can achieve far greater volume working out on DMAA than caffeine.
Yeah, DMAA is a stimulant though (with a far more dubious safety profile than caffeine). That's my point, pre-workouts are only as good as the stimulant around which they are based.



Swim15 said:
I worked very hard on an extremely synergistic blend of stimulants combined of chatecholamine releasing and reuptake inhibiting agents that is significantly more effective than caffeine. Obviously I have no clincal trials to support this, just smashed PRs by me and lots of friends with years of other pre workouts to compare to.
Just to confirm, when you say a "blend of stimulants"... that is "more effective than caffeine"... do you that your pre-workout does not contain caffeine (or a substance of dubious legality and safety, ie, DMAA), and it is more effective than caffeine? Or do you mean that your pre-workout is just more effective than the caffeine content alone?

If it's the former I would be very very skeptical, the latter is believable I guess although I would think the effect would be marginal.

Just to clarify also, again, because I feel I'm banging on a bit here, I don't mean to sound rude or dismissive or anything, I'm not an expert and I'm open to being shown why I'm wrong, I'm just very highly skeptical of the effectiveness of mixes of relatively ineffective ingredients that purport to create a synergistic effect greater than that of any one of the parts. My main issue is something you mentioned earlier about supplement manufacturers having a limited amount of ingredients to work with - there are just not that many true stimulants left that are both provably effective and can be put in something that is going to be mass marketed... and the other non-stimulant but vaguely stimulating compounds left over, while they might have some small effect, it is really nothing compared to that of the "true" stimulants. I mean, apart from caffeine and creatine, what is left? Taurine? L-Tyrosine? DLPA? Please... Again, I am open to being proved wrong, so if there's something I'm missing here, please tell me.
 

Swim15

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It does have caffeine and I would say that the mix is undoubtly (from my experience) much better than the caffeine itself with or without it. Caffeine is a shit stimulant in my book and there are much better things out there.

Not sure where creatine or any of those others fall into play since they aren't stimulants.

There are a number of drugs (too many to list) that can give these effects including DMAA, DMHA, hordenine, synephrine, yohimbine, dendrobium, adrafinil, PEA, NMT, and a dozen analogs as well as others that can be combined for excellent effects. In reality I'm not here to convince anyone of anything so I won't dive into all the R&D.

DMAA, despite the media, has a perfectly fine safety profile from what we know and to my knowledge hasn't caused any more deaths than caffeine. Hell, 400-500 people a year die from Tylenol so we should pull that well before these pre workout stims
 

RedLeader

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This will never happen - not while profit depends on it and without rigorous state-sanctioned regular testing.

On another note, has 5% Nutrition imploded yet?
I think they put out a press release saying they were trying to sign a few new big names. And I guess Piana didn't own as much of the company as people were led to believe.

I know the biggest trainer at my main gym is always wearing 5% gear. Somehow he's able to wear it in lieu of the uniform all of the other trainers wear. Dude is a legit BBer, looks like he's using growth, insulin, etc.
 
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