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Amphetamine-induced autophagy / fasting on Stims?

Fornax55

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Not sure where to post this, figured here's a good place to start.

I'll start off by noting that, in terms of obvious harm reduction purposes, I've always made a point to eat while I'm on stimulants. This is a novel idea I'm considering, since I'm already interested in fasting and I am prescribed low-dose amphetamines. I've just never thought of combining the two.

I've recently become interested in the process of autophagy. A lot of research has been done in the last few decades regarding the importance of fasting for inducing autophagy.

If you don't know what autophagy is, it's basically a cellular repair process that is typically only activated when a person hasn't eaten for 24-48 hours. Similar to ketosis, autophagy starts to occur after the body has burned through its glucose stores and requires an alternative source of energy. In this case, cells 'recycle' themselves by breaking down old, defective or malfunctioning components and repurposing them, effectively repairing cells in the process. I'm sure someone could explain it better than me.

My question is whether or not autophagy would still come into effect if a person were to fast using (extremely light doses) of amphetamines as an appetite suppressant. If that was the case, what sort of differences might one expect? My initial assumption is that autophagy would actually come into effect quicker since amphetamines increase energy expenditure. However it's also possible that this wouldn't even be considered a fast since one would have to consume the amphetamine in the first place. It seems like the jury is out in regard to whether or not you can consume calorie-deficient substances and maintain a fasting state.

Any input or ideas would be well appreciated!
 

d1nach

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Do you have any links we could look into about fasting for 24-36 hour to heal your body? I only ask because i take amphetamine and tend to eat almost all my calories at once per but i have never heard about this i only do it because of amphetamine. (Not trying to say it doesnt work i just never heard of this)
 

F.U.B.A.R.

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Does it really matter if your amphetamine fuelled 'fast' can be described as a 'fast' in the cultural sense of the word?

Surely it stands to reason that if you want to induce autophagy, then it would be more beneficial to do it naturally?

Don't confuse stimulant induced malnourishment with healing...
 

sekio

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I once thought I was experiencing this, but in all actuality I had just done way too much PCP and had way too much on my mind at the time. For whatever reason I got it into my head that I was like, being consumed from the inside out by my own cells.

What does sekio do? The only logical thing .... I ended up eviscerating a bag of brown sugar and making a righteous mess cramming fisftfuls of it into my face in a bid to save my life.


Yeah, that was fun to clean up afterwards. Gave me something to chew over while I mopped the floors repeatedly.

In reality, autophagy is like, the last resort for energy production in a severely malnourished person. Healthy humans will have a good supply of glycogen and adipose tissue to supply energy for a fairly impressive amount of time. (Most of the time your body can generate enough glucose from a variety of sources (some amino acids, fats, even e.g. ethanol can be utilized in gluconeogenesis.), which explains why you don't immediately go into hypoglycemic shock once you run out of free glucose. (After all, your brain has exactly one energy source it can use, that being glucose - and it uses an impressive amount. We can actually use glucose uptake in th ebrain to measure activity levels.)
You can actually feel when glucose depletion happens, it's what athletes know as "hitting the wall" - your body can perform 110% for the initial period while the readily mobilizable stores of glucose last, as your body switches to the less availiable sources of energy suddenly you need to exert much more effort to keep moving.

The average well-fed but not particularly athletic person has reserves of around 380g of glycogen, or 1500 kcal (2h @ 750kcal/h for vigorous exercise) Trained athletes who preload on carbs can more than double that, 880g glycogen, 3600kcal (4.8h @ 750kcal/h). And curiously, the RDA for most people is .... 1500 to 2000 kcal/day!

So yeah, unless you are like, noticeably wasting away (essentially no bodyfat, no compensatory binge-eating episodes, muscular wasting, extreme anhedonia and very poor mental/physical performance), you aren't at risk of having your cells eat themselves alive. Even if you pull a couple day bender. I mean, honestly, people have survived whole months with no food and survived, a few days is not gonna kill you.
 
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Fornax55

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Jun 17, 2010
Messages
397
Do you have any links we could look into about fasting for 24-36 hour to heal your body? I only ask because i take amphetamine and tend to eat almost all my calories at once per but i have never heard about this i only do it because of amphetamine. (Not trying to say it doesnt work i just never heard of this)
Well, you could start with a google search for the word "autophagy." I don't mean that to sound rude but there's simply so much information about autophagy available that I don't know what sort of reading material you'd prefer. It's a very well-documented process and is an established medical fact so there's tons of information available. I'd start with the wikipedia and healthline articles, so I'll link them below along with a study on how the body naturally employs autophagy to combat illness.

I wouldn't recommend using amphetamines just to start the process. However, unless your normal diet is terrible (i.e. all processed carbs & refined sugars), if you're going 36 hours without eating, you're going to be in the process of autophagy., I'm wondering if someone with experience as a nutritional scientist or pharmacologist might shed some light on whether or not amphetamines would affect autophagy.
Autophagy on Wikipedia
Healthline's article on autophagy
Autophagy fights disease through cellular self-digestion
Does it really matter if your amphetamine fuelled 'fast' can be described as a 'fast' in the cultural sense of the word?

Surely it stands to reason that if you want to induce autophagy, then it would be more beneficial to do it naturally?

Don't confuse stimulant induced malnourishment with healing...
I'm using the term 'fast' in a medical sense, not a cultural sense. Maybe I could've worded things better. Many people use amphetamines and go hours without eating. Once their glycogen stores and ketones are burned up (which can take anywhere from 12-48 hours depending on a person's diet) autophagy will kick in. I'm not wondering what the best way to induce autophagy is, since it's going to be happening anyways. I'm mostly wondering how it could be adversely affected, improved, or even prevented by the use of amphetamines.

This post is about harm reduction. There are people - amphetamine users - who regularly go 12+ hours without eating. If we identify any interactions between amphetamine use and the autophagy process, it's possible that these users may be able to further reduce harm by optimizing the autophagy process.

Amphetamine usage can cause oxidative stress and neurotoxicity. Autophagy is an inherent anti-oxidant and cellular repair process. My question wasn't about whether or not it's more beneficial to induce autophagy naturally - I'm wondering how this process can be optimized for amphetamine users who already go days without eating.

For example, some people pre-load an amphetamine bender with magnesium and omega-3 fatty acids to help reduce harm. My thinking is that something could be taken prior or during the experience to improve the efficacy of autophagy so it could ramp up immunity to prevent damage being done to the body during the bender.

I don't pull all-nighters often anymore, but I think there is some potential here that is worth exploring.


You may find some interesting reading from this thread wrt fasting and potential hypoglycaemia on amphetamines (though in the studies referenced, doses are generally 'high'): https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...esenting-as-methamphetamine-psychosis.632242/
Thanks! Good food for thought here.
...not that I have an appetite... HA!

The average well-fed but not particularly athletic person has reserves of around 380g of glycogen, or 1500 kcal (2h @ 750kcal/h for vigorous exercise) Trained athletes who preload on carbs can more than double that, 880g glycogen, 3600kcal (4.8h @ 750kcal/h). And curiously, the RDA for most people is .... 1500 to 2000 kcal/day!

So yeah, unless you are like, noticeably wasting away (essentially no bodyfat, no compensatory binge-eating episodes, muscular wasting, extreme anhedonia and very poor mental/physical performance), you aren't at risk of having your cells eat themselves alive. Even if you pull a couple day bender. I mean, honestly, people have survived whole months with no food and survived, a few days is not gonna kill you.
Wait, I wasn't worried about getting killed - I was wondering how much of a positive effect autophagy would have on the body during amphetamine usage. As far as I'm aware, self-induced autophagy (through cutting carbohydrates to reduce glycogen load, engaging ketosis and then allowing autophagy to proceed) is really good for your physical and mental health. I was more curious about how amphetamines would interfere with autophagy.

I just found a study linking coffee consumption to a decrease in overall mortality and disease rates due to its ability to induce autophagy (which surprised the hell out of me, I always thought coffee would accelerate mortality) which makes me wonder if amphetamine but might have a similar effect - at least low-end prescribed doses (I'm only using 5mg dextroamph at the moment).
 
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CFC

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your brain has exactly one energy source it can use, that being glucose
The brain (and heart) will use ketones (from fatty acids) if required, though it's inefficient and will probably result in various free radicals/oxidants causing a fair bit of cellular damage in the short term:

 

dopamimetic

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My rough guess is that 5mg d-amph are too little to be overall relevant. After all, with some time pass and tolerance coming, you don't really feel higher dosages until you happen to miss them, but it's an interesting question I had thought about before. 'Fasting' on arylcyclohexylamines certainly works for loosing weight, but after some time of eating chronically too less because of my habit of not to like to cook for just myself and CH's notoriously high prices things turn very bad. Don't know if it was actual malnourishment or side effects but I lost much energy, felt tired all day and physically bad though that was while I was on morphine too. When eating healthy these effects don't set in. Amph is better about subjective energy but less sustainable for me.

I think amphetamine has been used as a slimming pill in past, but the majority of them are strange serotonin releasers like fenfluramine.

@CFC Isn't ketogenic diet used as something like a last resort in non-controllable epilepsy? Didn't know that it's heavily toxic though.
 

CFC

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@CFC Isn't ketogenic diet used as something like a last resort in non-controllable epilepsy? Didn't know that it's heavily toxic though.
I wouldn't say Beta-oxidation or ketone bodies were heavily toxic, but it takes time for the body to switch over to using ketones more consistently and efficiently (ie; to upregulate various enzymes, antioxidative capacity etc), and so in the short term (weeks > months) you'd expect the mitochondria to take a fair battering from fatty acids compared to yummy glucose.
 

CFC

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Actually OP may also find this short write-up where I nicked the diagram from an interesting read:

 

Fornax55

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Jun 17, 2010
Messages
397
Thanks CFC, much appreciated. Good writeup and helped to clear up some information both regarding this question and some freelance writing projects I'm doing for a keto enthusiast.

My diet has always been relatively high-fat, low-carb and I'm thin as a twig so I suspect I might be able to transition more easily to using ketones as fuel. Most likely I already am.
 

jhess3993

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Joined
Apr 19, 2020
Messages
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Does it really matter if your amphetamine fuelled 'fast' can be described as a 'fast' in the cultural sense of the word?

Surely it stands to reason that if you want to induce autophagy, then it would be more beneficial to do it naturally?

Don't confuse stimulant induced malnourishment with healing...
That last sentence nailed it.
 

jhess3993

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Joined
Apr 19, 2020
Messages
9
Not sure where to post this, figured here's a good place to start.

I'll start off by noting that, in terms of obvious harm reduction purposes, I've always made a point to eat while I'm on stimulants. This is a novel idea I'm considering, since I'm already interested in fasting and I am prescribed low-dose amphetamines. I've just never thought of combining the two.

I've recently become interested in the process of autophagy. A lot of research has been done in the last few decades regarding the importance of fasting for inducing autophagy.

If you don't know what autophagy is, it's basically a cellular repair process that is typically only activated when a person hasn't eaten for 24-48 hours. Similar to ketosis, autophagy starts to occur after the body has burned through its glucose stores and requires an alternative source of energy. In this case, cells 'recycle' themselves by breaking down old, defective or malfunctioning components and repurposing them, effectively repairing cells in the process. I'm sure someone could explain it better than me.

My question is whether or not autophagy would still come into effect if a person were to fast using (extremely light doses) of amphetamines as an appetite suppressant. If that was the case, what sort of differences might one expect? My initial assumption is that autophagy would actually come into effect quicker since amphetamines increase energy expenditure. However it's also possible that this wouldn't even be considered a fast since one would have to consume the amphetamine in the first place. It seems like the jury is out in regard to whether or not you can consume calorie-deficient substances and maintain a fasting state.

Any input or ideas would be well appreciated!

I think the moderator's final sentence nailed it; however I just wanted to let u know I've never heard of this process before (autophagy), and I appreciate you bringing it to our attention. Seems like it's worth a deeper dive ..
 

Atelier3

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Does the autophagy induced change of body-fuel induce any changes in the body's odor?
Your breath starts to smell funny - kind of fruity - if you go into ketosis. Its an obvious smell.
 

jhess3993

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Does the autophagy induced change of body-fuel induce any changes in the body's odor?

This probably sounds gross....but I love the smell of body odor. Not utterly foul, never take a bath kind of thing, but rather don't wear any deodorant and go do some hard sweaty labor and do that for maybe three days before u shower....yes I like that. I am a woman, and I like it when men smell like sweat. Unfortunately I rarely get the privilege of experiencing this.
 

dopamimetic

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This probably sounds gross....but I love the smell of body odor.
Yeah I fully understand you. Not with everybody and not always but usually with people (in my case, usually women) I like, perfume tends to be irritating and excessive use of deodorant too (badly influences the bacterial flora, causes an increase of some species, leading people to use even more deodorant) Don't know, my sense of smell is weird, I tend not to notice things many people are upset about and the opposite but that's much more pronounced on dissociatives. Sometimes like every scenery, every person and pets, even/specially things (as long as its not winter and - 10°C but even then, the shop, the car, the apartment, clothes - put one shirt another person weared im the wardrobe for 1-2 days and i'll be at least irritated if not remembering the person just from smell) they all have a slight yet strong, distinctive odor which adds to the experience and memory. Remembered me a bit of a documentary where they tried to visualize how cats smell..
Guess it influences to whom you're attracted to more than people think. Pheromones etc. Is interesting to notice that consciously.
 
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Fornax55

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Jun 17, 2010
Messages
397
Yeah I fully understand you. Not with everybody and not always but usually with people (in my case, usually women) I like, perfume tends to be irritating and excessive use of deodorant too (badly influences the bacterial flora, causes an increase of some species, leading people to use even more deodorant) Don't know, my sense of smell is weird, I tend not to notice things many people are upset about and the opposite but that's much more pronounced on dissociatives. Sometimes like every scenery, every person and pets, even/specially things (as long as its not winter and - 10°C but even then, the shop, the car, the apartment, clothes - put one shirt another person weared im the wardrobe for 1-2 days and i'll be at least irritated if not remembering the person just from smell) they all have a slight yet strong, distinctive odor which adds to the experience and memory. Remembered me a bit of a documentary where they tried to visualize how cats smell..
Guess it influences to whom you're attracted to more than people think. Pheromones etc. Is interesting to notice that consciously.
Smell is a huge part of our communication process. I think the fact that we cover up our scent with deodorant is a farce. We can learn a lot about someone by how they smell. As strange as it sounds, smell offers a pretty valid insight into compatibility.

By the 2nd year into my relationship, I could smell the changes in my partner's pheromones dependant on her mood. We would often lie awake into the night, sometimes talking, sometimes not. She was prone to bouts of anxiety in the later hours, and I learned to be able to smell the particular pheromones released when she became anxious so I could console her before she needed to tell me anything.

That said, drugs definitely alter the way that your pheromones smell. I'm on d-amph right now for study and it makes me hella sweaty, and the sweat just smells rank.
 
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