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Adamantane and its derivatives

debored13

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I have been reading up on adamantane and it’s derivatives recently. They seem to have a broad range of effects that could be useful in ME/CFS, as well as being just generally very interesting.

Adamantane itself is a diamondoid!
It is not yet used in medicine But is under development for use in HIV
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamantane
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/diamant-adamantane-solution-for-lab-r-d.16108/

Bromantane is used for having both psychostimulant and anxiolytics properties, with none of the side effects of usual psychostimulants. Memantine is a dopamine agonist and nmda antagonist used in Parkinson’s.

Someone suggested to me that adamantane could have similar effects to c60 oil or buckyballs.

It seems like there’s been some study of adamantane itself and it even antagonized p2x7 receptors—purinergic signaling is a possible target for me/cfs drugs according to Naviaux
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2721772/



Has anybody had experience with this drug or family of drugs?
 

debored13

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The (hetero)adamantane scaffold might play a decisive role in the three-dimensional adjustment of the pharmacophors of the abovementioned natural products and natural-product inspired compounds. It is clear that the sheer activity of a drug, exerted by the fit into a receptor's binding pocket, the active site, is essentially triggered by this three-dimensional structure. This has historically been described as the “key-lock” principle and nowadays carries the moniker “induced fit”, expressing a more dynamic understanding of the receptor-ligand interactions."
 

dopamimetic

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Yeah, from the 3D structure of memantine I thought wtf, that's a diamond - and in fact it (or adamantane) is one, the smallest possible synthetic diamond. Memantine is a nice medicine, they just limit the dosage far too low. I am right now on 80mg of memantine, with the previous days being 60mg so even with the long half life and accumulation counted in ... this is the area of dosage where it begins to get really useful. It absorbs almost the complete wiithdrawal of 200mg+ of morphine from over 18 months where I had been hooked on it unable to stop, and this med makes it just - disappear. Skips all the nasty pain, restlessness, sweating, depression and pushes you right into the mindset where you remember what the fuck you all did whilst high on opioids what you didn't want to do and feel a profound happiness about being sober again. It's a good anti-awkwardist too fot these having problems with shyness etc. in social anxiety.

That said, it's the only one of these compounds I have personal experiences of. Had some bromantane longer ago but apparently it was a bad batch and had no real effects; from reading must be a pretty interesting chem too though. Here where I live atm is memantine as well as amantadine and a whole lot of other medicine almost OTCish available so ... is amantadine worth a try? Only know it was used agaist some sort of flu, where it lost most effects cause farmers doped their chicken with it... and that infusions of amantadine are said to be reviving, increasing vitality and strength. The latter sounds interesting, yet does this only apply for people very sick or is it a generel stimulant / adaptogen like bromantane is said to be?

Interesting that these adamantines are somewhat more powerful magnesium replacements, if I remember the activity of memantine at NMDA correctly.

Also there's the not yet marketed nitromemantine which they say has even more preferance for extrasynaptic NMDA receptors and leaves natural neurotransmission intact.

The obligtaory papers:
Adjunctive Amantadine Treatment for Aggressive Behavior in Children: A Series of Eight Cases: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27483360

Pharmacologically targeted NMDA receptor antagonism by NitroMemantine for cerebrovascular disease
NitroMemantine Restores Brain Connections in Models of Alzheimer’s

Memantine hydrochloride: pharmacological and clinical profile.
Or just search PubMed for memantine, theres a shitload of info

Full-Texts as always can be fetched through that generous sci-hub proxy
 
Last edited:

debored13

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Awesome. I have some pure adamantane and id like to try it to see if it would help with the tolerance and pain in general, but id also like to obtain some bromantane and memantine
 

Working_Class

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I have a fair bit of experience with bromantane, and it is legit. I've written about it too much to care to elaborate further, but I might be able to sift through and find a link to one of my nootropics experiment experience posts just as an additional anecdotal experience to include. I've been curious about memantine, I'm sitting on about 5 grams for the past year or so and haven't tried it yet. It's almost time


This is where the thread becomes relevant;


https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/selank-others.883790/post-14736278

I'm also interested in reading some of these articles. I know that there is a Canadian company looking to re purpose drugs that have already undergone human trials, for "other than originally intended" purposes, and ladistan (bromantaine) is being investigated for people with kidney disease. The particulars are not clear, just that vague tidbit.
 

debored13

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From the manufacturer of this adamantane product:
haidutMember
I first became interested in adamantane when I read about it in one of ray's articles. According to Ray it seems to have a stabilizing and structurally protective effects on the water inside the cell, and its commercial derivatives are all know to be anti-excitotoxic.
The problem of Alzheimer's disease as a clue to immortality Part 1
"...Things that act directly on the water structure: I think all of the natural regulators have an effect on the structure of water, but some unusual substances seem to act primarily on the water. Noble gases, for example, have no chemical effects, but they tend to form "cages" of water molecules around themselves. Camphor, adamantane, and the antiviral drug amantadine, probably have a similar water-structuring effect, and amantadine, which is widely used as a therapy in Parkinson's disease, has an anti-excitotoxic action."

Adamantane is the simplest known diamondoid existing naturally. As the Wikipedia page states, it is the core structure of many antiviral, anti-parkinson, and even anti-diabetic drugs.
Adamantane - Wikipedia
"...Adamantane is a colorless, crystalline chemical compound with a camphor-like odor. With a formula C10H16, it is a cycloalkane and also the simplest diamondoid."
"...The first adamantane derivative used as a drug was amantadine – first (1967) as an antiviral drug against various strains of flu[50] and then to treat Parkinson's disease.[51][52] Other drugs among adamantane derivatives include adapalene, adapromine, amantadine, bromantane, carmantadine, chlodantane, dopamantine, memantine, rimantadine, saxagliptin, tromantadine, and vildagliptin. Polymers of adamantane have been patented as antiviral agents against HIV."

Adapromine - Wikipedia
"...Electroencephalography (EEG) studies of animals suggest that adapromine and related adamantanes including amantadine, bromantane (1-amino-2-bromophenyladamantane), and memantine have psychostimulant-like and possibly antidepressant-like effects, and that these effects may be mediated via catecholaminergic processes.[8][9][10][11] These psychostimulant effects differ qualitatively from those of conventional psychostimulants like amphetamine however, and the adamantane derivatives have been described contrarily as "adaptogens" and as "actoprotectors".[12]"

"...In 2004, it was discovered that amantadine and memantine bind to and act as agonists of the σ1 receptor (Ki = 7.44 µM and 2.60 µM, respectively) and that activation of the σ1 receptor is involved in the dopaminergic effects of amantadine at therapeutically relevant concentrations.[13] These findings might also extend to the other adamantanes such as adapromine, rimantadine, and bromantane and could explain the psychostimulant-like effects of this family of compounds.[13]

After digging further I discovered many additional properties that make adamantane quite an interesting substance. Those studies are mostly on adamantane derivatives but as you can see from the pictures on Wkipedia, these derivatives are most often nothing more than an addition of a simple group that makes the adamantane more water-soluble. Adamantane itself is extremely lipophilic and this probably accounts for many of its cell stabilizing effects. Many of the studies on those derivatives compared effects of adamantane to the new derivative and found them to be almost the same. As is often the case in drug discovery and design, a generic molecule like adamantane is modified to be patentable and profitable, but the original molecule usually has the same beneficial effects as the patentable derivative and often without the side effects. The same seems to be true of adamantane.
In summary, based on extensive research and clinical testing adamantane and its derivatives so far have been studied to determine if they have the following properties: HDAC inhibitor (and thus anti-cancer), anti-cortisol, anti-serotonin, pro-dopamine, anti-diabetes, anti-viral, anti-bacterial, anti-excitotoxic, NMDA antagonism (and thus antidepressant), anticholinergic, antihistamine, etc. In addition, due to it extreme lipophilicity, admamantane may enhance the absorption and effects of many other substances it is administered with including steroids, vitamins, minerals, anti-inflammatory drugs, anesthetics, etc.

In light of all of these properties, I decided to release the product Diamant, which contains pure admantane dissolved in tocopherols and MCT oil. The studies supporting the properties of adamantane described above are provided in the references section below. The list of studies is a little light because I wanted to post only the studies known to be directly relevant to adamantane and not its derivatives. There over 5,000 studies on all adamantane derivatives and as I go through them slowly I will update the references section accordingly.

The units listed on the label are just for measurement purposes. They do not indicate suggested or optimal dose. Please note that similar to the products sold by companies like BluePeptides, this product is for lab/research use only. The product can be ordered from the link below:
www.idealabsdc.com/lab

*******************************************************************************
Diamant is a liquid product containing the chemical adamantane. Derivatives of adamantane have been in clinical use for decades are known for their anti-viral, anti-bacterial, pro-dopamine, and anti-excitotoxic properties. More recent studies have discovered that adamantane and its derivatives may be powerful inhibitors of HDAC (in nanomolar concentrations: EC50 = ~70 nM/L). Also, admantane (and its derivatives) may be a direct stimulator of the enzyme tyrosine hydroxylase and thus a direct stimulator of endogenous dopamine synthesis. In addition, adamantane and its derivatives have been studied if they inhibit cortisol synthesis, lower plasma serotonin, histamine, blood glucose, insulin, and inflammatory biomarkers. The extreme lipophilicity of adamantane has led to its use as an absorption enhancer for various drugs delivered topically, orally or even IV and this lipophilicity seems to also enhance the half-life of the chemical administered together with adamantane. For example, several derivatives of aspirin, indomethacin and testosterone have been synthesized using adamantane as the modifier and the bioavailability and half life increases from a few hours to as long as 8 weeks (i.e. see the liphophilicity links in the references below; the steroid Bolmantalate is a direct example Bolmantalate - Wikipedia).

Units per container: about 30
Unit size: 20 drops
Each unit contains the following ingredients:

Adamantane: 33mg

Other ingredients: add product to shopping cart to see info
*******************************************************************************

References:


1. Anti-cortisol
Discovery of adamantane ethers as inhibitors of 11beta-HSD-1: Synthesis and biological evaluation. - PubMed - NCBI
Adamantane sulfone and sulfonamide 11-beta-HSD1 Inhibitors. - PubMed - NCBI
Novel 11β-HSD1 inhibitors: C-1 versus C-2 substitution and effect of the introduction of an oxygen atom in the adamantane scaffold. - PubMed - NCBI

2. HDAC inhibitor
Discovery of adamantane based highly potent HDAC inhibitors. - PubMed - NCBI

3. Anti-serotonin, lower blood glucose, lower insulin
Amantadine reduces glucagon and enhances insulin secretion throughout the oral glucose tolerance test: central plus peripheral nervous system mechanisms

4. Dopamine agonist and increased dopamine synthesis
Memantine agonist action at dopamine D2High receptors. - PubMed - NCBI
The effects of ladasten on dopaminergic neurotransmission and hippocampal synaptic plasticity in rats. - PubMed - NCBI
[Ladasten induces the expression of genes regulating dopamine biosynthesis in various structures of rat brain]. - PubMed - NCBI
[Cytosine demethylation in the tyrosine hydroxylase gene promoter in the hypothalamus cells of the rat brain under the action of an aminoadamantane... - PubMed - NCBI
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10628-005-0057-z

5. Lipophilicity, enhancement of absorption, half-life and effects
The Lipophilic Bullet Hits the Targets: Medicinal Chemistry of Adamantane Derivatives
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jm00329a007
 

debored13

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Besides this thread which may be peoppe placeboing themselves, idk if i know anyone who's tried pure adamantane
 

Xorkoth

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I have tried bromantane, I wasn't too impressed though it was mildly stimulating and motivating. But so subtle I wondered at times if it was just placebo.

Memantine is certainly a dissociative drug, some people like to take much larger than therapeutic doses and have strong experiences.
 

Working_Class

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Were bromantaine shines is under intense physical stress. If you had taken it and not engaged in some limit pushing physical activity, it's main effect (being oxygen conservation and recycling pyruvate in the cellular respiration chain, copied from wikipedia > The first step of carbohydrate catabolism is glycolysis, which produces pyruvate, NADH, and ATP. Under anaerobic conditions, the pyruvate can be converted into lactate to keep glycolysis working. Under aerobic conditions, pyruvate enters the Krebs cycle, also called the citric acid cycle or tricarboxylic acid cycle), would have gone largely untested. Or at least, this is what I've found. The cognitive enhancing aspect is very mild I must agree.

Also, time spend in a sauna really caused the effects to become more apparent, as say a 12 min session was my regular "tap out" time, after a week on 50 mg per day, 15 mins was not a big deal. It's got it's place for sure and I'd have to say augmentation of oxygen consumption is probably where it's at with this one. Cardio also became incredibly augmented, I would struggle to get my heart rate up to 150, where 150 before wasn't too difficult to hit doing the same activity. In this case, stationary bike using HR monitor. This finding would reflect the decreased demand of oxygen by cells in the body, and reinforce the concept of pyruvate recycling.

It's been used extensively in the Olympics and military applications by Russia as well.

Here's a decent article on the pharmacology of this group of drugs;


And the excerpt I'm referring to pertains to bemitil, but an extrapolation by virtue of subjective effect and practical application points to some level of similar action by it's cousin, bromantane;


Bemitil, as well as the other well-studied actoprotectors, has no serious side effects. Bemitil and the other imidazole derivatives can cause dyspeptic disturbances (nausea, particularly on an empty stomach, though seldomly; vomiting; a general sense of discomfort in the region of the stomach and/or liver), psychoactivation effects (affective irritability, shortening of sleep quality and length), headache, and hyperemia of the face. Allergic reactions connected with the presence of bromide cannot be excluded. Bemitil is contraindicated under hypoglycemia and barbiturate administration conditions.

Thus, bemitil is a pharmacological agent of metabolic, non-exhaustive action, which comprises cell genome activation and expression of RNA and proteins, including enzymes and other proteins associated with the immune system. Also occurring

is expression of gluconeogenesis enzymes synthesis, which facilitates lactate utilization and carbohydrate resynthesis, which leads in turn to increased physical working capacity. The enhancement of the synthesis of the mitochondrial enzymes and structural proteins of the mitochondria makes possible an increase in energy production and the maintenance of a high degree contingency between oxidation and phosphorylation. Maintenance of high-level ATP synthesis under oxygen deficiency promotes apparent antihypoxic and antiischemic activity. As an indirect-action antioxidant, bemitil enhances biosynthesis of antioxidant enzymes. The antimutagenic properties of bemitil might be important to genomic protection against mutagenic factors of chemical, physical or biological origin. Finally, bemitil increases an organism's stability against the influence of extreme conditions (heavy physical loads, stresses, hypoxia, hyper- and hypothermia, etc.).


Also under bromantane;

In terms of its pharmacological action, bromantane shows an antiasthenic effect, increases resistance to overheating, and, thereby, contributes to the restoration of working capacity after physical loads. This compound, which possesses combined stimulative and anxiolytic effects, increases physical and intellectual working capacity; inhibits the development of fatigue processes; accelerates restoration under common conditions and conditions complicated by hypoxia and hyperthermia; promotes improvement of mnemic processes (learning); improves the coordination of movements; increases body temperature; has a neuropsychoactivation effect (therefore it is sometimes referred to as a psychomotor stimulator); reveals antagonism to the sedative action of tranquilizers; displays a positive inotropic action without affecting the heart chronotropic function or systemic arterial pressure, and produces immunomodulation activity (Sedov et al., 1999; Morozov et al., 1999).

Whereas bromantane lacks hypno-sedative and neuromuscular relaxant properties, it does not possess any addictive potential. At its application, it does not, unlike typical psychostimulants, develop the phenomena of hyperstimulation.

It was determined that bromantane has a positive influence on the indices of psychophysiological conditions: range and stability of attention, complex sensomotor reaction, and the parameters of successful operator activity (Viatleva et al., 2000).

The mechanism of bromantane action is based on the facility to increase the activity of the lower centers of the central nervous system (the hypothalamus nuclei, the reticular nuclei of the operculum, the hippocampus). It does not exert any expressed action on noradrenergic mediators, but implements the activation properties through the dopaminergic system. Bromantane strengthens GABA-ergic mediation, reducing gene expression, supervising synthesis of GABA-transporters, and functioning as a return capture mediator. A potentiality for central serotonin holding effects is also assumed.

A definite role in the implementation of the bromantane pharmacological effect is played by its antiradical and membrane protective properties: bromantane increases immunity even after a single dose (increases the level of B-cells and circulating immune complex in the blood-stream), and it is more powerful than another synthetic adaptogen, levamizol, in terms of its effect on immunity (Morozov et al., 1999).

Bromantane stimulates synthesis of cytochrome P-450 and thus facilitates detoxifying liver functions and reduces the hypnotic action of thiopental sodium (but at the same time, does not weaken the anxiolytic effect of benzodiazepines).

Bromantane administration in therapeutic doses is characterized by the almost full absence of side effects including manifestations of withdrawal syndrome and hyperstimulation (Morozov et al., 1999). In animal experiments, toxic reactions were observed only after high doses of bromantane administration (>600 mg/kg). Lower doses (30-300 mg/kg) stimulated, and higher doses (600-9,600 mg/kg) suppressed behavioral activity. Spontaneous motor activity was increased after single treatment of bromantane in doses of 30-300 mg/kg, was not changed after treatment in doses of 600 mg/kg, but was inhibited after treatment in doses above 600 mg/kg. The drug reduced the pain sensitivity threshold in doses of 300-600 mg/kg, and elevated it, along with tactile sensitivity and reaction to knock, in doses above 600 mg/kg (Iezhitsa et al., 2002).

Additional and more detailed information on the pharmacological properties of bromantane is available in a foundational book, some review articles (Morozov et al., 1999; Morozov and Ivanova, 2001), and numerous clinical and experimental studies first and foremost from the laboratories of I.S. Morozov and S.B. Seredenin.




If anyone else has any experiences using bromantane for performance enhancement, I'm interested to hear what their experience was like. There isn't any logs that I can find on it, and I've been planning an experiment myself revolving around experimenting with baseline measurements of strength and endurance, with concurrent measurements as the administration period continues to 30 - maybe 60 days with blood work at the end. I'm actually going for baseline blood work tomorrow to kick off the whole experiment. 500$ of science per test
 

debored13

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203
Were bromantaine shines is under intense physical stress. If you had taken it and not engaged in some limit pushing physical activity, it's main effect (being oxygen conservation and recycling pyruvate in the cellular respiration chain, copied from wikipedia > The first step of carbohydrate catabolism is glycolysis, which produces pyruvate, NADH, and ATP. Under anaerobic conditions, the pyruvate can be converted into lactate to keep glycolysis working. Under aerobic conditions, pyruvate enters the Krebs cycle, also called the citric acid cycle or tricarboxylic acid cycle), would have gone largely untested. Or at least, this is what I've found. The cognitive enhancing aspect is very mild I must agree.

Also, time spend in a sauna really caused the effects to become more apparent, as say a 12 min session was my regular "tap out" time, after a week on 50 mg per day, 15 mins was not a big deal. It's got it's place for sure and I'd have to say augmentation of oxygen consumption is probably where it's at with this one. Cardio also became incredibly augmented, I would struggle to get my heart rate up to 150, where 150 before wasn't too difficult to hit doing the same activity. In this case, stationary bike using HR monitor.

It's been used extensively in the Olympics and military applications by Russia as well.

Here's a decent article on the pharmacology of this group of drugs;


And the excerpt I'm referring to pertains to bemitil, but an extrapolation by virtue of subjective effect and practical application points to some level of similar action by it's cousin, bromantane;


Bemitil, as well as the other well-studied actoprotectors, has no serious side effects. Bemitil and the other imidazole derivatives can cause dyspeptic disturbances (nausea, particularly on an empty stomach, though seldomly; vomiting; a general sense of discomfort in the region of the stomach and/or liver), psychoactivation effects (affective irritability, shortening of sleep quality and length), headache, and hyperemia of the face. Allergic reactions connected with the presence of bromide cannot be excluded. Bemitil is contraindicated under hypoglycemia and barbiturate administration conditions.

Thus, bemitil is a pharmacological agent of metabolic, non-exhaustive action, which comprises cell genome activation and expression of RNA and proteins, including enzymes and other proteins associated with the immune system. Also occurring

is expression of gluconeogenesis enzymes synthesis, which facilitates lactate utilization and carbohydrate resynthesis, which leads in turn to increased physical working capacity. The enhancement of the synthesis of the mitochondrial enzymes and structural proteins of the mitochondria makes possible an increase in energy production and the maintenance of a high degree contingency between oxidation and phosphorylation. Maintenance of high-level ATP synthesis under oxygen deficiency promotes apparent antihypoxic and antiischemic activity. As an indirect-action antioxidant, bemitil enhances biosynthesis of antioxidant enzymes. The antimutagenic properties of bemitil might be important to genomic protection against mutagenic factors of chemical, physical or biological origin. Finally, bemitil increases an organism's stability against the influence of extreme conditions (heavy physical loads, stresses, hypoxia, hyper- and hypothermia, etc.).


Also under bromantane;

In terms of its pharmacological action, bromantane shows an antiasthenic effect, increases resistance to overheating, and, thereby, contributes to the restoration of working capacity after physical loads. This compound, which possesses combined stimulative and anxiolytic effects, increases physical and intellectual working capacity; inhibits the development of fatigue processes; accelerates restoration under common conditions and conditions complicated by hypoxia and hyperthermia; promotes improvement of mnemic processes (learning); improves the coordination of movements; increases body temperature; has a neuropsychoactivation effect (therefore it is sometimes referred to as a psychomotor stimulator); reveals antagonism to the sedative action of tranquilizers; displays a positive inotropic action without affecting the heart chronotropic function or systemic arterial pressure, and produces immunomodulation activity (Sedov et al., 1999; Morozov et al., 1999).

Whereas bromantane lacks hypno-sedative and neuromuscular relaxant properties, it does not possess any addictive potential. At its application, it does not, unlike typical psychostimulants, develop the phenomena of hyperstimulation.

It was determined that bromantane has a positive influence on the indices of psychophysiological conditions: range and stability of attention, complex sensomotor reaction, and the parameters of successful operator activity (Viatleva et al., 2000).

The mechanism of bromantane action is based on the facility to increase the activity of the lower centers of the central nervous system (the hypothalamus nuclei, the reticular nuclei of the operculum, the hippocampus). It does not exert any expressed action on noradrenergic mediators, but implements the activation properties through the dopaminergic system. Bromantane strengthens GABA-ergic mediation, reducing gene expression, supervising synthesis of GABA-transporters, and functioning as a return capture mediator. A potentiality for central serotonin holding effects is also assumed.

A definite role in the implementation of the bromantane pharmacological effect is played by its antiradical and membrane protective properties: bromantane increases immunity even after a single dose (increases the level of B-cells and circulating immune complex in the blood-stream), and it is more powerful than another synthetic adaptogen, levamizol, in terms of its effect on immunity (Morozov et al., 1999).

Bromantane stimulates synthesis of cytochrome P-450 and thus facilitates detoxifying liver functions and reduces the hypnotic action of thiopental sodium (but at the same time, does not weaken the anxiolytic effect of benzodiazepines).

Bromantane administration in therapeutic doses is characterized by the almost full absence of side effects including manifestations of withdrawal syndrome and hyperstimulation (Morozov et al., 1999). In animal experiments, toxic reactions were observed only after high doses of bromantane administration (>600 mg/kg). Lower doses (30-300 mg/kg) stimulated, and higher doses (600-9,600 mg/kg) suppressed behavioral activity. Spontaneous motor activity was increased after single treatment of bromantane in doses of 30-300 mg/kg, was not changed after treatment in doses of 600 mg/kg, but was inhibited after treatment in doses above 600 mg/kg. The drug reduced the pain sensitivity threshold in doses of 300-600 mg/kg, and elevated it, along with tactile sensitivity and reaction to knock, in doses above 600 mg/kg (Iezhitsa et al., 2002).

Additional and more detailed information on the pharmacological properties of bromantane is available in a foundational book, some review articles (Morozov et al., 1999; Morozov and Ivanova, 2001), and numerous clinical and experimental studies first and foremost from the laboratories of I.S. Morozov and S.B. Seredenin.




If anyone else has any experiences using bromantane for performance enhancement, I'm interested to hear what their experience was like. There isn't any logs that I can find on it, and I've been planning an experiment myself revolving around experimenting with baseline measurements of strength and endurance, with concurrent measurements as the administration period continues to 30 - maybe 60 days with blood work at the end. I'm actually going for baseline blood work tomorrow to kick off the whole experiment. 500$ of science per test
Yes part of the reason im interested in bromantane is i have executive dysfunction but due to gettinf a disease that involves oxidative stress i no longer tolerate normal stimulants well, however bromantane seems to not have the same issues as methylphenidate, amphetamine, etc. In fact it seems possibly protective against oxidative stress.

Also, my body is probably having problems with reductive stress/pyruvate being reduced to lactate instead of oxidized , even without doing much physical activity https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5161229/
 

debored13

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If you are interested in things that affect aerobic threshold, ive been ingesting ethyl pyruvate ans ethyl acetoacetate to try and affect it
 

Working_Class

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I'd say from anecdotal experience that it's an ally. But the blood tests will be interesting for sure, I'm very curious to see what happens to my values on 60 days of the shit.

Also, I've been planning an IV course of TB500 for cardiac enlargement, it's a peptide that's under investigation to help people recover from mild to severe cardiomyopathy, and I suffer from a slight enlargement of the entire heart due to extensive AAS and amphetamine / body abuse in general. Never took my blood pressure seriously until dyspenia started taking my breath away. Not cool at the young age of 30!


I'm glad you got some stuff figured out debored13, stim use is a double edged sword. It can be so useful and convenient, but it can be dually so harmful and habit forming. Truly the nightmare of all medicated peoples with ADHD.
 

debored13

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203
Also, I've been planning an IV course of TB500 for cardiac enlargement, it's a peptide that's under investigation to help people recover from mild to severe cardiomyopathy, and I suffer from a slight enlargement of the entire heart due to extensive AAS and amphetamine / body abuse in general. Never took my blood pressure seriously until dyspenia started taking my breath away. Not cool at the young age of 30!
I may have some heart issues, yeah getting episodes of hypertension at the age of 25 is no cakewalk, need an echocardiogram but i suspect my heart may not be structurally damaged but more downstream of autonomic problems causwd by my cervical spine issues/brainstem compression. Nevertheless i was considering similar peptides , that and bpc-157, for collagen repair, since my cervical spine problems probably need surgery, but i could try and fix the ligaments as a hail mary. I also want to try vasoactive intestinal peptide for blood volume/flow issues but i need to find a doctor to prescribe it.
I'm glad you got some stuff figured out debored13, stim use is a double edged sword. It can be so useful and convenient, but it can be dually so harmful and habit forming. Truly the nightmare of all medicated peoples with ADHD.
Idk, For me stim side effects were totally unrelated to overuse and disproportionate to dose, and only occurred after i had a trigger for this long term illness, starting with an infection. I was on ritalin for adhd for years at a very moderate dose and was almoat never overstimulated on it, nor drawn to abuse it, and it relaxed and focused me, and made my life better. That is, until after i got lyme, which i think triggered a state of high oxidative stress and in that context the minor ROS from therapeutic stimulant doses was rendered intolerable. It was seriously like an on off switch. Lots of drugs i went from tolerating fine to not toleratinf well after i became Ill.
 

debored13

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203
Post up your findings on this ethyl pyruvate and ethyl acetoacetate! I'm sure a few will be interested
Recently ive been so Ill and trying so many things that its hard to tell which helps. But a year ago when i was more moderately sick, the combination of those two definitely gave me pronounced increases in energy and metabolism, without the sife effects of stimulants. Would increase my appetite as well like moderate doses of thyroid hormone. It supposedly is very protective in sepsis/shock, bc of its effect on lactate. There are lots of papers on this, i will dig them up soon. But basically i think its a pdk inhibitor, pdk is like the opposite of pyruvate dehydrogenase, which is the enzyme that oxidizes pyruvate, bridging glycolysis and the krebs cycle, important for carbohydrate metabolism. So pdk inhibits normal oxidation of glucose, and inhibiting it to some extent can enable better metabolism. DCA also does this but seems to have more risks

In my case i think the metabolic issues are downstream of other things so interventions aimed at them only help briefly
 

Working_Class

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434
Wow man, look at us walking lab rats!

I can agree about disc issues causing insane back pain and related sympathetic dysfunction possibly sending the body into a hypertensive state. I never got it checked but I blew out a disc deadlifting 585 for reps with no belt, and on the top of rep 3 an audible "Pop" sound can be heard on the video. I've had severe back issues since then and when pain goes on a runaway, the sympathetic component is very palpable and unpleasant. I've been searching for ways to regain some resemblance of former form and comfort ever since, exercise helps a lot but it just goes out sometimes ya know? Anyway, I like where your head's at, I'd risk it injecting peptides before wide open surgery any day, neither the peptides nor the surgery is guaranteed to work. But at least if the peptide down't work, at least you wont be crippled for the rest of your life. Maybe just lowkey cancer down the road... but that's another topic for another day haha.

I feel like quality is more of a redeeming quality when it comes to determining qualities I'd seek out of my lifespan, rather than raw quantity.

Props for keeping up the search for improvement! I love a good underdog story, especially when chemical romance is involved.
 

debored13

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
203
My issues arent disc degeneration, just ligament laxity/degeneration causing skull to sink down and compress brainstem (craniocervical instability). I never had any specific trauamtic injury so its unclear at this point if i have a genetic connective tissue disorder or if its all a combo of environmental exposures and infection causing it, or both. But i think. a realky wide range of spinal issues can cause many autonomic and system wide issues.

I dont actually expect the peptides to work and i think if u can find a really good neurosurgeon surgery isnt the worst thing in the world, but i woukd just like to feel like id tried some other options before going for it. Bpc 157 seems pretty low risk

Also pain can cause hypertension in and of itself although ive had hypertension without pain and pain without hypertension
 

debored13

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
203
I also think the angiogenesis/cancer issue is like the least of my concerns honestly. Im more woreied about injecting directly into my neck and risking hitting a nerve or blood vessel.

Long term cancer risk is so low on my priorities list bc i have a severe chronic illnsss that while not terminal is terrible quality of life ans sometimes i wish it *was* terminal. I dont expect to be able to live with this quality of life indefinitely, not even for another year, so im focused more on short term ways to get better
 
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