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What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

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Hopefully we're not getting into an area that is not allowed by the board. I'm not sure where that line is but here we go.

Acrylamide -> Soluble in EtOH, water, ether and chloroform (I am going to assume it's soluble in DCM as well. If anyone knows what else it's soluble in, please chime in)
Glycidol -> Soluble in water, alcohol, ether
Glycolic acid -> Soluble in EtOh, methanol, acid, acetone

So you basify your salt in NaOH to PH 12.8 and get MDMA freebase then you add a non-polar solvent. Classically one would use DCM but if these are the synthesis byproducts one could easily use something like toluene. However, using DCM, chloroform or ether would be a better choice. But toluene *should* work.

From there wash your nonpolar and freebase mixture with water several times. What I don't know (hopefully someone can clear this up) is when you basify your MDMA HCl, will you also "freebase" the glycidol and acrylamide and other potential prop-2 byproducts? I assume the glycolic acid will be mixed in with the MDMA freebase.

From there you gas the freebase nonpolar solution and your MDMA HCl crystals will precipitate out of the solution.

Now assuming the glycolic acid is still mixed in, you should be able to wash that out with a hot acetone wash. Whether the glycidol is still there is a question. I guess you could potentially get rid of that with a recrystallization in EtOH or IPA.

So I guess the answer to the question of whether just an A/B can get rid of those potential contaminants I think the answer is...maybe.

However, the most guaranteed way is to distill the freebase and capture the condensate from 100-110C and discard the rest. Gas that freebase solution and you'll have 99-100% MDMA HCl.
 
My pupils just won’t dilate no matter what the dose but I do feel the same familiar MDMA effects from the MDMA I have currently access. Weird thing is that my SO do get pupils dilated as hell from the same dose taken from the same batch.

I tested my MDMA and it didn’t contain any adulterants and I have plenty of it left so I consider myself lucky although my pupils won’t dilate.

If I take 6-APB I get dilated pupils though.
 
anon65535 said:
Hopefully we're not getting into an area that is not allowed by the board. I'm not sure where that line is but here we go.

Acrylamide -> Soluble in EtOH, water, ether and chloroform (I am going to assume it's soluble in DCM as well. If anyone knows what else it's soluble in, please chime in)
Glycidol -> Soluble in water, alcohol, ether
Glycolic acid -> Soluble in EtOh, methanol, acid, acetone

So you basify your salt in NaOH to PH 12.8 and get MDMA freebase then you add a non-polar solvent. Classically one would use DCM but if these are the synthesis byproducts one could easily use something like toluene. However, using DCM, chloroform or ether would be a better choice. But toluene *should* work.

From there wash your nonpolar and freebase mixture with water several times. What I don't know (hopefully someone can clear this up) is when you basify your MDMA HCl, will you also "freebase" the glycidol and acrylamide and other potential prop-2 byproducts? I assume the glycolic acid will be mixed in with the MDMA freebase.

From there you gas the freebase nonpolar solution and your MDMA HCl crystals will precipitate out of the solution.

Now assuming the glycolic acid is still mixed in, you should be able to wash that out with a hot acetone wash. Whether the glycidol is still there is a question. I guess you could potentially get rid of that with a recrystallization in EtOH or IPA.

So I guess the answer to the question of whether just an A/B can get rid of those potential contaminants I think the answer is...maybe.

However, the most guaranteed way is to distill the freebase and capture the condensate from 100-110C and discard the rest. Gas that freebase solution and you'll have 99-100% MDMA HCl.
Click to expand...

Do you have the ability and product to test this theory?
 
userlee5267 said:
i think its a scary time to actually take mdma, i had two friends alot younger than me who i work with who have just come back from a music festival and they took 8g of dutch mdma, they bought online.

they said they took the whole 8g in 2 days between just the two of them, said they were really enjoying them selfs. i asked about pupil dilation and they didnt have any, asked about empathy they had none, they were just glad to be twisted in there terms.

i tried to explain that what they had took could never be mdma at all as they wouldn't be able to do them kind of amounts at all, but they are certain it was as it was brown and it was crystally.

i explained how just a few pills would have you in love and pupils like saucers and they were saying that what we took when we were there age wasn's as strong thats why.

i am in disbelief and what they think is mdma when it surely cant be. they also mentione that what i was describing as mdma sounded more like the ketamine there friends were doing as they were all loved up and had massive pupils.

ummmm sounds like they aint got a clue nowadays. these lads are 18-19 years old... im closer to 40 lol
Click to expand...

No clue but think they are experts in drugs.

Low doses cause myadrsis

Ketamine causes mydriasis.

Brown crystals confirms it's MDMA.



When you are 19 you are an expert at everything.
 
MrRoot said:
My pupils just won’t dilate no matter what the dose but I do feel the same familiar MDMA effects from the MDMA I have currently access. Weird thing is that my SO do get pupils dilated as hell from the same dose taken from the same batch.

I tested my MDMA and it didn’t contain any adulterants and I have plenty of it left so I consider myself lucky although my pupils won’t dilate.

If I take 6-APB I get dilated pupils though.
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Do you get pupil dilation from classical hallucinogens such as mushrooms?
 
Yeah I do get dilated pupils from hallucinogens but never from MDMA. Not even when I started back in the 2002.

There is actually a good example in the Lounge's nudie thread about it as we both have taken MDMA but no dilated pupils for me.
 
The identification of the potential of Acrylamide being in MDMA produced from PMK glycidate is really interesting; especially as a potential cause of the LTC phenomenon. As far as I can tell this phenomenon seems fairly recent, discussion of it is limited to this sub forum and (maybe a controversial thing to say) it appears to be mostly Americans who have suffered from it. From reading the LTC threads it appears to not happen to everyone in a group who takes a pill from the same batch. This makes me wonder a few things:

1) Why isn't it more evenly geographically distributed.
2) If it is mainly an American problem where is the MDMA coming from and what is different about it
3) There must be some contributory individual factor (biological differences or maybe some strange drug interaction)
4) If Acrylamide was the cause of LTC and was in the 'mongy dutch MDMA' then surely you would expect to see a lot of LTC cases from Europe, also I guess there would be more cancers among people using MDMA. :(

It does appear from reading Bluelight that locally sourced MDMA is different and quite often better than dark net sourced MDMA. For example In the U.K. a few years ago there was rave reviews of a Manchester crew who were producing some really good pills which favourably compared to dutch stuff. This makes me wonder if the 'New MDMA' problem is mostly due to a few massive Dutch producers who operate largely on the dark net.

If an impurity like Acrylamide was the cause of this 'mongy dutch MDMA' then I guess it would have to counteract MDMA's effect on dilating pupils, eye wiggles, euphoria, empathy, onset of the drug and duration in smallish doses say around 5-10 mg It sounds sort of far fetched. This is why I find the isomer theory attractive. Although it is extremely unlikely to not be racemic MDMA, R MDMA has a lot of the qualities such as a higher dose, longer onset and is less speedy. Surely someone must have access to a polarimeter to test this theory!

I have heard it said that once dutch testing centres have tested a few pills from a press they don't bother to test subsequent pills from the same batch. It is fairly common for people to really like a press when it first comes out and then for it to get shittier over time. Maybe they put another drug in after a bit! Or maybe some producers are deliberately or unintentionally producing something that tests positive as MDMA but isn't.

Its fascinating how often these debates happen. People are convinced pre and post ban Mephedrone is different, there is a theory that pre-ban had more impurities so was better... There was the whole tan mdpv thing as well. Ketamine and other dissociatives often seems to vary from batch to batch.

The debate on MDMA changing has been going on forever on bluelight it would be good to get some answers.
 
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^^Well right now acrylamide is just the potential reason for the LTC not the mong. Also I ask why you say most who suffer are American? I was kind of under the impression it was the opposite but could be wrong. It'd be interesting to figure that out as it would help us figure this out.

Right now it's theorized impurities that are "alcohols" (contain an alcohol group) are possibly the reason for the mong. Indigo kindly has provided evidence to show MDMA with MDP2Pol (has an alcohol group) is mongy and overall not that great in comparison to the old stuff he was getting. This Dutch PMK glycidate MDMA could very likely contain glycidol, which is another substance with alcohol on it which causes sedation and other effects. There seems to be a pattern..

The acrylamide would be more in line with LTC sufferers but even then it doesn't fit the profile 100%. My guess is that acrylamide mixed with the neurotoxic potential of MDMA would be a recipe for disaster and could likely present itself in ways that mimic both toxicities. What we see with LTC seems to be an amalgam of the symptoms we'd see from both separately.

Again I think R isomer theory seems highly unlikely given the fact it lasts longer than S, mellower and it's also trippier. This new crap is reported as very intense floor you kind of effect that isn't really even pleasurable then stops abruptly like 90mins in. I do think it's possible for there to be EE in favor of one isomer or the other but the effects manifest themselves different than what we see with Dutch mong.

-GC
 
Just an update on what I posted. After thinking about it, you should be able to clear out glycolic acid, glycidamide, glycidol and acrylamide with hot solvent washes with acetone as well as ethanol/methanol. You need to do a hot solvent wash as the MDMA needs to be completely dissolved in the solvents and then crash out by bringing the temperature down and filtered. I may run my acetone/IPA washed crystals through an SLX denatured alcohol wash but I'm a little hesitant as I don't like working with methanol and SLX is like 40% methanol. The other stuff has 5% methanol and like 1% of a ketone. If the ketone is safe, I may end up doing that. But either way, that should be fine for our purposes. You just need some to get solubility with the possible impurities.

I also heard back from EC, they are finding out whether the full scan LCMS can be done.
 
So...in the name of science...

Obtaining a sample from the DW. Claims to be safrole derived and USA made. Obviously, step one will be to mail off for testing. Will also reagent test. Anything else I should consider from a safety perspective here? Obviously, there are a lot of unknown factors that are not showing up in testing.
 
Just checked this thread for the first time in a month or two.... AWESOME!

The past two pages are probably the most entertaining and informative posts I've read on BL in a while. Such good work you guys, thank you.
 
growit&smokeit said:
1) Why isn't it more evenly geographically distributed.
Click to expand...
How do you know it isn't ?
What is your population sample size ?

growit&smokeit said:
3) There must be some contributory individual factor (biological differences or maybe some strange drug interaction)
Click to expand...
Genotypic variability and history of different substance exposure can account for many differences.

growit&smokeit said:
4) If Acrylamide was the cause of LTC and was in the 'mongy dutch MDMA' then surely you would expect to see a lot of LTC cases from Europe, also I guess there would be more cancers among people using MDMA. :(
Click to expand...
Again, how do you know, that there aren't many LTC cases in Europe?
As far the other issue, cancer is a slow disease that might not have manifested yet and/or might not have been associated with a specific substance exposure.


growit&smokeit said:
If an impurity like Acrylamide was the cause of this 'mongy dutch MDMA' then I guess it would have to counteract MDMA's effect on dilating pupils, eye wiggles, euphoria, empathy, onset of the drug and duration in smallish doses say around 5-10 mg It sounds sort of far fetched.
Click to expand...
Not really. There are many pharmaceuticals that are active in that dose range and some of them are active in the microgram range (LSD being one).
In light of this, a 5% of an antagonistic impurity is not that far fetched. To deceive the GC/MS analysis at higher concentrations it would have to be isobaric or differing only in chirality.

growit&smokeit said:
This is why I find the isomer theory attractive. Although it is extremely unlikely to not be racemic MDMA, R MDMA has a lot of the qualities such as a higher dose, longer onset and is less speedy.
Click to expand...
These differences are mostly based on the Shulgin's report. I think G_chem should explain to you why it might not be entirely accurate.

growit&smokeit said:
Surely someone must have access to a polarimeter to test this theory!
Click to expand...
...and samples of both the bad and good "MDMA"

growit&smokeit said:
I have heard it said that once dutch testing centres have tested a few pills from a press they don't bother to test subsequent pills from the same batch.
Click to expand...
How do they know that a pill is from the same batch without testing?

growit&smokeit said:
Or maybe some producers are deliberately or unintentionally producing something that tests positive as MDMA but isn't.
Click to expand...
Like 2,3-MDMA ?


growit&smokeit said:
The debate on MDMA changing has been going on forever on Bluelight it would be good to get some answers.
Click to expand...
...and it will continue until someone tests at least 5 various "bad MDMA" and 5 various "good MDMA" samples on a chirally selective spectrograph or chromatograph, that is capable of differentiating isobaries and regioisomers of 3,4-MDMA.

Unfortunately, my equipment is not chirally selective.


P.S.
Any serious researcher will face the problem of obtaining several of in-vivo pre-tested samples of "bad MDMA" and "good MDMA" without going to jail, which is a real show-stopper.
 
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Plain underivatized GC/MS analyses made by most testing centers cannot distinguish between these 23 substances listed below (...and their enantiomers), without expensive chiral columns and exotic stationary phases, not to mention the crystalline polymorphs, so any of these substances can pass off as "MDMA" to a routine chromatograpic/spectroscopic test.

Also, any low concentration contaminants will not be detected by these routine analyses, unless specifically screened for.

Forensic analysts must have seen these different compounds, enantiomers or precursor contaminants in the recent years, though... but they are not publishing their findings, which is evil because this bad "Mongy Molly" evidently provokes higher doses, causes LTC and has increased death statistics in the recent years !!!

This just shows you where their priorities lay.

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I was wondering today if you can send samples to China for nmr analysis for a reasonable rate. That would be a much more solid way to address the isobars or imputities.

briefly searched and found this company in the US: http://www.process-nmr.com/price sched.htm

They charge 56$ for a proton NMR without data interpretation. Seems reasonable if a group of people are willing to chip in (as this would take running at least several samples to get anywhere). But i'd rather go with China personally if we find one.

But with that I'd be worried about sending them even trace amount of MDMA (wouldn't disclose what it is)..don't know the law well enough


with regard to the above post, i know i mentioned this in the other thread but to have the record be complete:
I would bet a great majority of those isobars can be resolved chromatographically with a ten minute run. Others can be differentiated through product ion analysis. Does the anaysis method the labs have created accomplish these things? We don't know. But it can be done quite easily.

Even if they push everything out in under ten minutes I don't think there would be a ton of them that have the exact same retention time as mdma.

I know paramethoxycathinone is pretty hard to resolve but you cannsee that it doesn't overlap with MDMA if you run standards of both. The others I have no experience with personally.

I
 
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LucidSDreamr said:
I was wondering today if you can send samples to China for NMR analysis for a reasonable rate. That would be a much more solid way to address the isobars or imputities.
Click to expand...
NMR will resolve regioisomers and isobaries but not enantiomers.
 
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