What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[Glubrahnum]

Would the possibility of todays MDMA pills and powder actually being 2,3 MDMA instead of 3,4 MDMA be the reason the mgs are so high nowadays?

I haven't even read that 2,3-MDMA is psychoactive...except for this forum, so I just don't know.

And if we can verify 2,3 MDMA is the culprit, could a simple reagent test be produced to distinguish against that and 3,4 MDMA?

Not any of the known reagents. One would have to be devised that react differently with the 2,3-MDMA.

 

[Glubrahnum]

I think we need further input from Glubra. If this was the case it would be very interesting, but we need more evidence to back the claim that 2,3-MDMA was the culprit all along.

Note, that I have not detected any MDMA in my sample - only a precursor that would make 2,3-MDMA in the synth pathways that we know of.

 

[Glubrahnum]

So why would chemists knowingly use this precursor to create a positional isomer of MDMA that has little history of use and would almost certainly be identified as inferior product by users?

Maybe it is not a question of preference but availability.

Wouldn't these large labs have the ability to test their precursors to make sure they are the same?

They would...if they cared.

Would the synthesis even work the same way with 2,3-MDP2P?

In my opinion - yes.

 

[Glubrahnum]

The problem is that there are far too many user reports that indicate the love/happiness is there, just as it always was, and it's merely a tolerance issue.

I thought so too, until this experiment performed on virgin users.

 

[Glubrahnum]

A Good GC/MS Should Be Able To Distinguish Between 3,4-MDMA & 2,3-MDMA. The Latter Is Not Much An Empathogen.

Unfortunately "good" also means expensive...and derivatization is time consuming.
This impacts the "bottom line" of the testing centers usig GC/MS, so it is not surprising that they care more about volume and cost than precision.

Raman spectroscopy is such a superior analytical technique, that I don't understand why the testing centers still bother with the old GC/MS.

Raman can differentiate crystalline polymorphs, and with a polarizer/quarter-wave plate - it can even resolve enantiomers.
It is fast, cheap (does not use any consumables) and does not require any derivatization nor sample preparation (aside maybe from filing/sending down a pill to get below its surface).

The Raman Imaging also conveys a whole wealth of information.
Imagine all testing centers publishing images like this and a spectrum for each false-color, too:

@ G_Chem
The brighter green spots on the darker green crystals are the crystalline polymorphisms.

 

[Glubrahnum]

?In 2014, during a survey by the INCB on the use of pre-precursor materials, several governments mentioned a substance called ?Helional? (2-methyl-3-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)propanal), a novel precursor for MDA and possibly MDMA.

It is definitely possible to make 3,4-MDMA out of Helional, Piperonal and Eugenol ...as well as from Sesamol, Ilepcimide and Vanillin (albeit with with difficulty).
Also, it is nothing new...

WARNING - This is a JOKE: "An eager beaver tried to synthesize Ecstasy from "Helional". He got this precursor on the dark web from a reputable Chinese vendor and has gone through all the synth steps ...after which he consumed his end product. He reported distinctly "Mongy" effects ...resembling phenobarbital intoxication."

Who got this joke ?

 

[Biscuit]

Someone bumped this somewhat older and related thread...

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/593144-MDMA-doesn-t-make-me-happy-hyper-and-huggy-anymore
I am sorry, but for those you might recall mine and many other sensible BL's neverending battles with shugjenja about this issue, I am flabberghasted by his earlier posts...

Actually, it is probably the racemic mixture differences in MDMA that cause the experiential differences (assuming real MDMA). More of the r-isomer and you get less stimulation and a more stoned effect, more s-isomer and you get much more stimulation.

Many people seem to forget that MDMA has stereo-isomers that act completely differently --- the r-isomer hits the 5HT2A receptors really hard, while the s-isomer is very stimulating. The s-isomer also has a much shorter half life than the r-isomer and is metabolized differently.

I guess someone should tell these mice that:

[h=1]MDMA (N-methyl-3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine) and its stereoisomers: Similarities and differences in behavioral effects in an automated activity apparatus in mice.[/h]
Abstract:

"Racemic MDMA (0.3 ??? 30 mg/kg), S(+)-MDMA (0.3 ??? 30 mg/kg), R(-)-MDMA (0.3 ??? 50 mg/kg) and saline vehicle (10 ml/kg) were comprehensively evaluated in fully automated and computer-integrated activity chambers, which were designed for mice, and provided a detailed analysis of the frequency, location, and/or duration of 18 different activities. The results indicated that MDMA and its isomers produced stimulation of motor actions, with S(+)-MDMA and (±)-MDMA usually being more potent than R(-)-MDMA in measures such as movement (time, distance, velocity), margin distance, rotation (clockwise and counterclockwise), and retraced activities. Interestingly, racemic MDMA appeared to exert a greater than expected potency and/or an enhanced effect on measures such as movement episodes, center actions (entries and distance), clockwise rotations, and jumps; actions that might be explained by additive or synergistic (i.e. potentiation) effects of the stereoisomers. In other measures, the enantiomers displayed different effects: S(+)-MDMA produced a preference to induce counterclockwise (versus clockwise) rotations, and each isomer exerted a different profile of effect on vertical activities and jumps. Furthermore, each isomer of MDMA appeared to attenuate the effect of its opposite enantiomer on some behaviors; antagonism effects that were surmised from a lack of expected activities by racemic MDMA. S(+)-MDMA (but not R(-)-MDMA), for example, produced an increase in vertical entries (rearing) and a preference to increase counterclockwise (versus clockwise) rotations; (±)-MDMA also should have induced such effects but did not. Apparently, R(-)-MDMA, when combined with S(+)-MDMA to form (±)-MDMA, prevented the appearance of those increases (from control) in activities. Similarly, R(-)-MDMA (but not S(+)-MDMA) produced increases in episodes (i.e. jumps) and vertical distance that racemic MDMA also should have, but were not, exhibited. Evidently, the presence of S(+)-MDMA in the racemic mixture inhibited the appearance of those increases (from control) in behavior. Taken together, the various and complex effects of MDMA and its stereoisomers are noted and a strategy is suggested for future studies that stresses the importance of steric effects and interplay, probable interaction(s) with various neurotransmitters, and interaction(s) with the particular behavioral or biological event (or action) being measured."


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2994347/

And it just goes on. Sorry for not contributing anything new but this just couldn't be allowed to go through to the keeper without acknowledgement.

I have never seen 2,3-MDMA in any forensic laboratory analysis of seized Australian pills or powder so I don't think it provides an answer to the wider problem. I still definitely feel it is due to a switch to a chiral precurrsor of PMK coupled with a switch to a different reductive amination catalyst. Both of these factors occurring at once, together with sloppy purification of any PMK derived from the glycidate, surely could produce MDMA with an uneven balance of stereoisomers; where perhaps even a small fraction difference between the two being enough to really skew any subjective effect: e.g. R:S 65:35.

 

[G_Chem]

^^^Ill add more later. But so funny you brought that up Biscuit, I remember reading that fairly recently and just laughing to myself.. That right there shows how little he actually knows coupled with the fact he was just wanting to argue for arguments sake...

-GC

 

[Beenhead]

Maybe it is not a question of preference but availability.


They would...if they cared.


In my opinion - yes.

Thanks for the info on RAMAN. Many folks in my circle have been telling me that it is going to be the next big thing (I am an Orbitrap person)

This Paper shows a nice separation via liquid chromatography with just a regular hypersil column. Now I am not an expert on GCMS, and only have gone as far as Thermo's version of the DB5 column, but I feel like with the proper gradient you would get enough separation to do some MSMS if you had a Triple?


If you read chapter 1.4.3.1 of the Dissertation you posted (thanks by the way, I wish I could have done that) and look at Figure 24, you will see that the issue with GCMS of 2,3-MDMA and 3,4-MDMA is not that they elute at the same time, it is that their fragment ions are nearly identical, and MSMS would be needed to ID. But Fig 24 shows underivitized 2,3 and 3,4 MDMA; compounds 8 and 3, respectively eluting quite far from each other, further than I would have thought

There was atleast one study where several species coeluted, however, with I think an RTX-5 column, which is I believe, Resteks version of Agielnt's DB-5 (the standard bearer of small molecule work) they were able to get sufficient separation.

 

[Section813]

Just a couple experience points I'd like to throw in ...

I had some of those Trump pills in October of last year. They were "meh". Sleepy pills for sure.

I've been avoiding Dutch producers for a while now. Long before this type of thread was allowed. Just to anyone out there that agrees with all this ... The Canadians for the most part are still using safrole so FYI.

Big thanks to Glubra and everyone that is spending time on this. There are a lot of old lurkers watching this thread closely.

 

[G_Chem]

@Glubra- Just saw your little caption at the bottom regarding polymorphs. Interesting.. Helps further support the theory mdma can be a mix of multiple polymorphs. My guess is every batch of mdma is a varied ratio of hydrated polymorphs and anhydrous mdma.

@Section- If it weren't for other producers still doing it old school we would be in a bad place, I'd cry if I couldn't get legit product.. There's even US domestic producers who dish out amazing product. I've heard nothing but good things about the G6 crew from west coast. The old "mintman" (crew) from Chicago was amazing from like 2008 to 2013. It's just often these amazing MDMA products don't make it as far as they should.

Thank you btw on your comments regarding the Trump pills, it's good to gather as many experiences as possible with a certain press that's been lab tested to see what patterns we can see. Sure your trump pill could have been different but it also could've been the same, the more people who come in telling us their experiences with said pill as recently as possible the better.


Also back to the 2,3-MDP2P glycidate thing.. I cannot seem to find what the starting precursor would be. I'm getting no results from my searches and I don't think there are any essential oils with the 2,3 configuration. Anyone know anything on that?

-GC

 

[Beenhead]

If anyone has access to scifinder at school look the structure up

 

[Glubrahnum]

I cannot seem to find what the starting precursor would be. I'm getting no results from my searches and I don't think there are any essential oils with the 2,3 configuration. Anyone know anything on that?

IMO the precursor for 2,3-MDP2P Glycidate would be the 2,3-Dihydroxybenzaldehyde and glycidic acid

 

[G_Chem]

So found something interesting that may or may not be related but...

Back in the fall of 2016, I get a call from a friend asking if I'll come over to test out his product he just bought. I gladly say yes and stop out.

The product upon initial examination appeared to me to be mdma. It was a brownish crystalline substance with an odd smell I've never smelt but still somewhat reminiscent of safrole.

My friend and his girl each dosed with around 100-200mg from my poor memory (i think they started with 100 then may have redosed) and reported very weak effects unlike mdma as he claimed.

I tested the product and the results were unlike any mdma results I've seen before. Close but not close enough and typically there's not much variation in the colors, or so I thought.. I pretty much told him it was bunk and that was that, or so I thought...


Well today I was looking at ecstasydata again, just skimming results, and looked up results with MDP2Pol (an impurity we've found provides mongy bad product, thanks to indigo and his testing) and found a result that matched perfectly what I had tested a good while back..

https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=4878&mobile=1

Now this result was sent in near the exact date my friend also received his product. It looks identical and biggest thing that caught my eye was the reagent results. They looked almost identical, especially the odd marquis results that we magenta. The only difference was this stuff wasn't in the same state as us but not the first time I've seen far away imports.

The product was:
MDMA- 13
MDP2Pol- 1

Now I'm starting to think that was same stuff my buddy had. Note my buddy and his girl know good product, he has gotten me lots of good mdma and lsd over the years. His description of the effects somewhat matches what we've heard before regarding product with this impurity by indigo.

It seems this impurity is either problematic itself or an indicator for something else (possibly piperonal as a starting precursor is the problem, or so it would seem..)

Also I'm now more aware of how reagent results can vary a good amount based on impurities present.

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

FYI: I am ordering a fresh test kit. Going to post images of the color changes for the product with the MD2Pol-1 and the DW product so we can analyze.

Interesting that G-Chem's sample and my sample have the same impurity and similar unimpressive effects.

 

[Goodwalt]

So can you detect MDP2Pol just from Marquis results? How can you do that?

 

[G_Chem]

Unfortunately I'm not so sure on that.. After looking at the other entries on EData it seems that was the only sample containing MDP2Pol to have that reddish magenta coloration. With that said there's only a few other entries on there so I think it would be a good idea to see what the marquis does on your product indigo. The color difference very likely could be down to another impurity the lab didn't detect.

I also remember either the mecke or mandelin doing something slightly off too from normal.

Indigo if you get the full 4 test kit deal and post images I can take some photos of different samples as well to compare. I'll try to get photos of the reaction seconds after, 15secs after and 30. (At least immediately after and 20-30 secs after..)

I think our best shot at finding a way to beat this thing is using the tools we already have at our disposal, i.e. common testing reagents.

(After re-reading some old regional threads, I was reminded of how much this problem has plagued the U.K. or at least some of its residents for a while now.)

-GC

 

[Beenhead]

Ive got all this MDMA And MDA and im worried its gonna suck after all these years.

You guys and your logic and experimentation... destroyers of nostalgia! Lol

 

[benson7]

Here in the UK it basically all went wrong from about 2010. I am glad people the world over are now starting to see things the same way. I was initially impressed with these Dutch mega strength pills, but it became clear something was up, virtually no pupil dilation, limited euphoria and decreased duration of high and in particular a lack of empathy.

 

[johnsonsbeamer]

I think our best shot at finding a way to beat this thing is using the tools we already have at our disposal, i.e. common testing reagents.

Could smell be a possible identifier?

I noticed quite a few posts throughout this thread, as well as others on Reddit, that mention the strong aniseed aroma associated with good quality MDMA.