The Ferguson thread / additional race discussion

[nuttynutskin]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And you never see this outrage over a cop shooting a white person.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

Pretending that the most extreme, violent protestors are typical of most protestors, you're engaged in propagating a logical fallacy. It's arguing by selective observation.

It's also an attack on our first amendment rights. Those who want to steal, vandalize, and commit other crimes will find the cover of a large protest ideal for their illegal actions. But if you decide to judge the protestors collectively, and use unnecessary force against them based on the actions of just a few, then you're going to curtail people's willingness to express their freedom of speech and assembly.

 

[Droppersneck]

I can appreciate your intellectual approach Eschers, but it is what it is no matter what the verdict there will probably be violence/looting/mass display of ignorance. If he is found innocent I feel like some of the main figures that monetize this sort of ethnic situation/event should be held accountable at the very least civilly if not criminally. Man I feel like that is a fox news opinion, but it is how I feel.

 

[LosBlancos]

Pretending that the most extreme, violent protestors are typical of most protestors, you're engaged in propagating a logical fallacy. It's arguing by selective observation.

It's also an attack on our first amendment rights. Those who want to steal, vandalize, and commit other crimes will find the cover of a large protest ideal for their illegal actions. But if you decide to judge the protestors collectively, and use unnecessary force against them based on the actions of just a few, then you're going to curtail people's willingness to express their freedom of speech and assembly.

The Gentle Giant's final moments...he will be missed dearly. He din't do nuffin he was gonna turn his life around

 

[alasdairm]

And you never see this outrage over a cop shooting a white person.

you've got to be joking.

but there is more of a sense of outrage here. i wonder why? yet another unarmed black man killed by cops. from How Often are Unarmed Black Men Shot Down By Police?:

"91% of the people killed by Police in Chicago in 2012 were Black? 87% in New York? 100% in Saginaw and Rockford? I gotta admit even after focusing on this subject for over 30 years, since Ron Settles was killed, I find that kind of shocking.
The report goes on to say that 47% of these killings (146 cases) occurred not because of the person brandishing a weapon (as noted above less then 30% of them HAD a weapon, or were even thought to have a weapon), it's because the Officer or Citizen - "felt threatened" and were in "fear". In only 8% (25 cases) did the suspect fire or discharge a weapon that wounded or killed Police or others while Officers were on the scene.

Only eight (8) Officers were Charged with Murder, Manslaughter or use of excessive force in these case.

Is this report comprehensive? Is it fully accurate? I don't know, it's gone through several revisions and updates as none of the data is being officially compiled anywhere and some things can be missed that way.
...
They analyzed the data from the Ten Largest Cities and in Every City - every single one - had double the number of black shooting victims than their proportion in the population."

further:

"And beyond scanning press accounts, which to be honest are incomplete when only focusing on the larger cities, there is some information available on this from the Bureau of Justice Statistics (pdf).

• The most common reason for contact with police in 2008 was being a driver in a traffic stop (44.1%)
• Black drivers were about three times as likely as white drivers and about two times as likely as Hispanic drivers to be searched during a traffic stop.

...
Yet as we all should know, even though Blacks get searched more often during stops - police don't find more drugs or guns on them.

'White New Yorkers make up a small minority of stop-and-frisks, which were 84 percent black and Latino residents. Despite this much higher number of minorities deemed suspicious by police, the likelihood that stopping an African American would find a weapon was half the likelihood of finding one on a white person.'"

from Exactly How Often Do Police Shoot Unarmed Black Men?:

"The killing of Michael Brown by police in Ferguson, Missouri, was no anomaly: As we reported yesterday, Brown is one of at least four unarmed black men who died at the hands of police in the last month alone. There are many more cases from years past. As Jeffrey Mittman, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Missouri chapter put it in a statement of condolence to Brown's family, "Unarmed African-American men are shot and killed by police at an alarming rate. This pattern must stop."

But quantifying that pattern is difficult. Federal databases that track police use of force or arrest-related deaths paint only a partial picture. Police department data is scattered and fragmented. No agency appears to track the number of police shootings or killings of unarmed victims in a systematic, comprehensive way.

Here's some of what we do know:

Previous attempts to analyze racial bias in police shootings have arrived at similar conclusions. In 2007, ColorLines and the Chicago Reporter investigated fatal police shootings in 10 major cities, and found that there were a disproportionately high number of African Americans among police shooting victims in every one, particularly in New York, San Diego, and Las Vegas.
...
In Oakland, California, the NAACP reported that out of 45 officer-involved shootings in the city between 2004 and 2008, 37 of those shot were black. None were white. One-third of the shootings resulted in fatalities. Although weapons were not found in 40 percent of cases, the NAACP found, no officers were charged. (These numbers don't include 22-year-old Oscar Grant, who was shot and killed by a transit authority officer at the Fruitvale BART station on New Year's Day of 2009.)"

more:

"Police shootings of unarmed black people aren't limited to poor or predominantly black communities. Jones-Brown points to examples where police officers have shot unarmed black men and women in Hollywood, Riverside (California), and Prince Georges County—a Maryland suburb known as the most affluent US county with an African-American majority. "Part of the problem is that black people realize that you don't have to be poor, you don't have to be in your own community...and this can happen to you," she says. These killings occur against black people of varying socioeconomic backgrounds: "Actors, professional football players, college students, high school grads. They happen to black cops, too.""

the shooting of an unarmed white person and the shooting of an unarmed black person are equally tragic but the idea that the killing of an unarmed black person isn't a greater outrage in the context in which these number place it, seems kind of, well, silly.

alasdair

 

[LosBlancos]

Shootings by police still a drop in the bucket compared to killings from their fellow civilians.

Also interesting of all these supposed cases of police killing unjustifiably this one he happened to commit a strong-arm robbery just moments before he allegedly attempted to take an officer's weapon, can't the community find a better example to rally behind? Isn't it inherently racist that there's only outrage in this case because a black was killed? If a white person was killed the media would not frame it based on race.

 

[LosBlancos]

The irony...

 

[alasdairm]

Shootings by police still a drop in the bucket compared to killings from their fellow civilians.

oh. ok. there aren't that many of them relatively speaking so police murdering civilians is a-ok.

our fellow civilians aren't paid public money to protect and serve us...

alasdair

 

[Bardeaux]

Shootings by police still a drop in the bucket compared to killings from their fellow civilians.

The difference being that police are public officials. They are held responsible by the public, ie- you and I. Criminals and other civilian hooligans are held responsible by the justice system. Which is progressively becoming more and more the jurisdiction of the police themselves rather than the courts.

Isn't it inherently racist that there's only outrage in this case because a black was killed? If a white person was killed the media would not frame it based on race.

There's outrage elsewhere, you're just not interpreting it as outrage. The justice system itself is broken and is faced with massive levels of pushback. Outraged parents are "hysterical and over reacting" over the latest school shooting. Anti-war demonstrators are framed as unpatriotic terrorist sympathizers. Anti-death penalty proponents have their hands full as well. Economic justice proponents are ridiculed by the right beyond belief. There is a lot of systemic outrage out there and a lot of popular support for them all. You seem the be hung up on the one you disagree with.

 

[phenethylo J]

Pretending that the most extreme, violent protestors are typical of most protestors, you're engaged in propagating a logical fallacy. It's arguing by selective observation.

It's also an attack on our first amendment rights. Those who want to steal, vandalize, and commit other crimes will find the cover of a large protest ideal for their illegal actions. But if you decide to judge the protestors collectively, and use unnecessary force against them based on the actions of just a few, then you're going to curtail people's willingness to express their freedom of speech and assembly.

Ummm ok; it appears you have completely twisted my point around and have straight up put words in my mouth. I never stated that a majority of black protesters are out causing destruction and mayhem. I never said black people don't have a right to peacefully protest. I have stated earlier in this thread that respect the protesters who keep it civil even though I disagreed with them on Mike Brown's innocence. I also acknowledged the large amount of racial profiling that still exists in this country.

The point I was trying to make was about the protesters insane demands like wanting the protesters leading the movement to be immune from being arrested. Also wanting the police to wear minimal protection and using that against the police. Can you explain to me how police wearing a helmet, vest, and using a shield is a safety hazard to the protesters. Sure not all the protesters are violent but there has been more than enough violence to warrant the police wearing that sort of protection. A police officer standing there in riot gear letting protesters do their thing is not excessive force. I wish it weren't that way but if there is no indictment there will be large scale chaos. Unfortunately the police will need stuff like tear gas and rubber bullets on hand to deal with the protesters who choose to engage in that.

 

[ArCi]

100% agree wih you phen

but honestly you're just wasting time trying to explain things to him. Take a look at some of his previous posts.. it's laughable

 

[paranoid android]

The point I was trying to make was about the protesters insane demands like wanting the protesters leading the movement to be immune from being arrested. Also wanting the police to wear minimal protection and using that against the police. Can you explain to me how police wearing a helmet, vest, and using a shield is a safety hazard to the protesters. Sure not all the protesters are violent but there has been more than enough violence to warrant the police wearing that sort of protection. A police officer standing there in riot gear letting protesters do their thing is not excessive force. I wish it weren't that way but if there is no indictment there will be large scale chaos. Unfortunately the police will need stuff like tear gas and rubber bullets on hand to deal with the protesters who choose to engage in that.

I don't think they asked for immunity they just asked to not be rounded up and arrested before the protest started. That and protesters not be arrested for minor crimes like chucking water bottles at the cops. And really if you can't handle that you shouldn't be a cop. And let's face it the pigs showing up in riot gear automatically ups the ante and put's everyone on edge. That job tends to attract people with fucked up personality disorders at the best of times as who the fuck besides cops get off on beating on people they have never met in their lives? The only difference between them and gang members is that the cops have the law to hide behind. Once they put their penis extension on (their gun) and slap the riot gear on they act like abunch of drunken frat boys who just got their first taste of moonshine. They feel invincible and seem to want to take out their inferiority complex on anyone they can beat on.

A list of demands is actually a good idea and their demands where not exactly outrageous or anything. That way if the cops go off the head first it looks better for the protesters. The propaganda war can make or break a movement so i think it's about time protesters in the west started learning it to counter propaganda put out by the police.

 

[ArCi]

That job tends to attract people with fucked up personality disorders at the best of times as who the fuck besides cops get off on beating on people they have never met in their lives? The only difference between them and gang members is that the cops have the law to hide behind. Once they put their penis extension on (their gun) and slap the riot gear on they act like abunch of drunken frat boys who just got their first taste of moonshine. They feel invincible and seem to want to take out their inferiority complex on anyone they can beat on.

It's statements like this where you lose all credibility. I'm willing to bet most people don't even read your posts anymore to even notice that you say these kind of things.

 

[paranoid android]

It's statements like this where you lose all credibility. I'm willing to bet most people don't even read your posts anymore to even notice that you say these kind of things.

Well you never had any credibility to begin with but that hardly stops you now does it 8)

Anyone who has dealt with cops know how the fuck they act. There is a reason noone who has ever had to deal with them likes them. A lawyer who was a Q.C told me along time ago to never get the cops involved unless you absolutely have to as they always make things worse and to even then think twice. I have yet to see anything good coming out of involving those fuckers in anything. Then again i could be more biased towards them then some on here as noone where i live except a few people so ostracized from the community that they try and buddy up to coppers who are never from here have any time at all for the likes of the RCMP.

 

[nuttynutskin]

A list of demands is actually a good idea and their demands where not exactly outrageous or anything. That way if the cops go off the head first it looks better for the protesters. The propaganda war can make or break a movement so i think it's about time protesters in the west started learning it to counter propaganda put out by the police.

Like the cops are going to take the list of demands seriously... Like I believe someone else alluded to already, what are they going to do, go to the police station and hand out flyers for the cops to pass around telling them how to do their job? Pretty laughable.

 

[schwiftee]

You really shouldn't be employed anywhere if you can't overlook being hit with a water bottle. When I was a hiring manager the first thing I would do upon meeting a new interviewee is hurl a water bottle at their face and if they didn't laugh it off I would call them a pussy and tell them to GTFO. Nobody wants to work with uptight conservatives.

 

[paranoid android]

Like the cops are going to take the list of demands seriously... Like I believe someone else alluded to already, what are they going to do, go to the police station and hand out flyers for the cops to pass around telling them how to do their job? Pretty laughable.

Well see that's a huge part of the problem isn't it and only further shows that the cops are there to serve and protect the elites not the working class. Their demands where not exactly unreasonable yet the cops won't even look at them. So who comes off as the ones completely unwilling to compromise here? The police do atleast to anyone who is not a brown noser for the pigs. The protesters aren't telling the cops how to do their jobs they are just telling the cops that they want to protest as is their right without fear of being beaten half to death or fear of retaliation. If a few kids fling water bottles at the cops who cares? If your such a pussy hothead that getting hit with a plastic water bottle makes you go fucking mental then you obviously should not be a cop unless it's walking the beat up in the north pole or somewhere. If the cops refuse to compromise that makes them look bad hence why a list of demands is a rather good idea. It was this kind of organization and willingness to confront the police (confrontation does not necessarily mean violence) that was lacking in certain protests over the years. If the cops get out of hand first which will more likely then not be the case then you can use that against them as they will have been the ones that escalated it. The protesters can then use that as propaganda saying that the police are just thugs looking to bust some heads and nothing more.

Giving a list of demands to your political opponents in this case the police is hardly anything new nor is it laughable. Granted these protesters have to realize that there is just a certain percentage of the population that they are not going to get any sympathy from. You always get the law and order types who are outright reactionaries who think the police can do no wrong. The Judas bastards would give up their own mom as some class elements just have that mentality bred into them.

Just out of curiosity what would you have the protesters do?

You really shouldn't be employed anywhere if you can't overlook being hit with a water bottle. When I was a hiring manager the first thing I would do upon meeting a new interviewee is hurl a water bottle at their face and if they didn't laugh it off I would call them a pussy and tell them to GTFO. Nobody wants to work with uptight conservatives.

That was a rather poor job at sarcasm and trolling. Civilians are civilians and cops are cops. There's a big difference between a water bottle getting flung at a cop during a protest compared to hitting a interviewee in the face with one. It would be rather funny to do that right off the bat and catch it on video and put it on youtube though all the same lol

 

[LosBlancos]

God forbid I threw a water bottle at a protestor I'd probably have Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton giving a speech on it the next day, and Eric Holder getting ready to file hate crime charges.

 

[schwiftee]

That was a rather poor job at sarcasm and trolling. Civilians are civilians and cops are pigs. There's a big difference between a water bottle getting flung at a cop during a protest compared to hitting a interviewee in the face with one. It would be rather funny to do that right off the bat and catch it on video and put it on youtube though all the same lol

Fixed

I live in Chicago and every month cops shoot and kill a couple people. It's always the same story: they point a weapon at police and get shot 10 times. It's just surprising they never get off a shot. If your mentally ill and have a knife they may try and talk you into putting it down for 2 seconds before they blast your ass. Chicago cops are out of control.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Well see that's a huge part of the problem isn't it and only further shows that the cops are there to serve and protect the elites not the working class.

How is protecting businesses from being looted and burned to the ground not serving and protecting the working class? Would you consider someone that works at a convenience store an elite 1 percenter?

Their demands where not exactly unreasonable yet the cops won't even look at them. So who comes off as the ones completely unwilling to compromise here? The police do atleast to anyone who is not a brown noser for the pigs. The protesters aren't telling the cops how to do their jobs they are just telling the cops that they want to protest as is their right without fear of being beaten half to death or fear of retaliation.

How is it not unreasonable to say the police shouldn't be equipped with riot gear when dealing with a violent mob, or standard riot control tools? I don't think that they need to compromise with a violent mob looting, destroying property and committing violent acts. The protesters had the right to protest peacefully from day one but they blew it. It's not the cop's fault.

If a few kids fling water bottles at the cops who cares? If your such a pussy hothead that getting hit with a plastic water bottle makes you go fucking mental then you obviously should not be a cop unless it's walking the beat up in the north pole or somewhere.

If I fling a water bottle at someone and it hits them I can get charged with assault, what makes it any different if it's at a cop during a protest? And forget the water bottle throwing, that was just an example. In the document it said minor lawbreaking which could basically be interpreted as anything to a degree.

If the cops refuse to compromise that makes them look bad hence why a list of demands is a rather good idea.

They already look bad to the idiots that think they should be able to get away with anything without fear of getting dealt with.

It was this kind of organization and willingness to confront the police (confrontation does not necessarily mean violence) that was lacking in certain protests over the years. If the cops get out of hand first which will more likely then not be the case then you can use that against them as they will have been the ones that escalated it. The protesters can then use that as propaganda saying that the police are just thugs looking to bust some heads and nothing more.

Again, that assemblage of protesters already thinks that about the police. So what? Whether or not they have some silly declaration written out with how they think the police should act won't make any difference.

Giving a list of demands to your political opponents in this case the police is hardly anything new nor is it laughable. Granted these protesters have to realize that there is just a certain percentage of the population that they are not going to get any sympathy from.

Like the percentage that doesn't think that destroying one's own community is the answer to something that wasn't even a crime in the first place? Yeah, gotcha.

You always get the law and order types who are outright reactionaries who think the police can do no wrong. The Judas bastards would give up their own mom as some class elements just have that mentality bred into them.

Have I ever said the police can do no wrong? As for the last part I don't even know what you're babbling about.

Just out of curiosity what would you have the protesters do?

Not behave like a bunch of violent savages and then cry when they're dealt with.

God forbid I threw a water bottle at a protestor I'd probably have Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton giving a speech on it the next day, and Eric Holder getting ready to file hate crime charges.

You'd be ok as long as it was a white protester you assaulted. lol