What is enlightenment?

[swilow]

I'm re-reading a really good book called "Awakening the Buddha Within" written by an American Buddhist, Lama Surya Das, which is suggested to be the "8 steps to enlightenment". Some of it is old hat (for me) but he is able to articulate some of the more esoteric Buddhist ideals very well- its a pleasure to read

My question is- what is enlightenment? Surya Das mentions in passing that the Buddha 'knew all things knowable'. How literally is that intended? The facetious part of my mind wants to asks if Buddha had knowledge of things like general relativity or other 'true' scientific knowledge. Could he have introduced cold fusion to the world, could he have answered Anselm's proof of god idea, did he understand the important role that vitamin b12 plays in our diet...?

My own conception of enlightenment is a state of mind where there is no negativity, where one can just 'exist' without passing judgments or taking things personally, where the subjective self can objectively witness reality without creating values or distinctions, and (perhaps most importantly) this state is continuous and almost static. I think many people have had a touch of this experience, through either drugs, spirituality or spontaneously, but it is usually fleeting and can be difficult to maintain.

But the idea that the Buddha knew all things suggests that absolutely all knowledge, empirical wisdom and hard fact is already contained within us, and we simply need to find a way to pull this knowledge up to the front of our consciousness...

Whats your conception of enlightenment and methods to bring it about?

 

[-=SS=-]

Ah, a favorite topic of mine ^_^

Much has been said and written on the subject, but like everything else in our world you got to sort garbage to get to the gold. One should remember that a lot of this "wisdom" has been passed down and the person explaining it hasn't necessarily had the final experience themselves. Stuff gets repeated when it might not be accurate.

Anyway, my conception of enlightenment is based around the writings/talks of two individuals I'm convinced were enlightened individuals, Ramana Maharshi and Richard Rose. You do not learn the Truth, you become it.. the final experience is you becoming one with oneness (awareness). This happens beyond the mind, the mind goes silent/dead and that is when you have the experience (but silencing the mind doesn't necessarily invoke the experience). You realize without doubt that this is all an illusion, a projection, that nothing exists, not even you. It is incredibly traumatic, both going in and out of the experience. You come back and re-adjust, you have to play the game again (that's what you're here for), but you never forget what you became.. you realize none of this matters.

That is the final experience, also known as Sahaja Samadhi, and is not to be confused with Cosmic Consciousness that has been experienced by a lot more people.

Methods to bring it about. There is no set path, every individual is different, but there are a few key tenets that will increase the chances of the lightning strike/make you a better target for it.

-Celibacy. Sexual energy is our most potent resource and can be channeled to the head (Kundalini). Transmuted it can be applied to mental tasks, and the inner-search is one of them. Some of the great men of history utilized this technique, including my hero, Tesla.

-Conservation of energy. It takes a lot of energy to die and come back again, as well as during the search. You may have to retreat from things that weigh you down, such as the job, the house, the family. You can only effectively solve one problem at a time, and Self-Definition is a huge task.

-Introspection. Looking within yourself. You have to start with yourself first and foremost. Getting the body in good health, and then the mind.. undo any neurosis you may have acquired. Then you meditate/study yourself, work out the negative things that are holding up your life from past experiences, then analyze the thought processes themselves. Eventually this study of the mind with the mind causes confusion and finally your head pops.

-Commitment. Make a promise that this matters above all else. You can't dick around with this and hope getting halfway will work. Halfway to eternity is nowhere! You going to have to break the door down, knocking just won't cut it.


As for calling forth relative knowledge, I think this is limited intentionally. If an actor on the stage suddenly gained control of the wardrobe, lighting, stage curtains, music etc he could ruin the entire show! Our ability to affect the stage play is limited, and this extends to knowledge too.

 

[ComfortablyNumb95]

My idea of enlightenment is more or less like yours willow, it's actually called equanimity.
I don't really know how to reach it, my guess is through years and years of rigorous meditation and physical exercise.

 

[Foreigner]

Anyway, my conception of enlightenment is based around the writings/talks of two individuals I'm convinced were enlightened individuals, Ramana Maharshi and Richard Rose. You do not learn the Truth, you become it.. the final experience is you becoming one with oneness (awareness).

Just curious what you think about the idea of ascension? It has many elements of enlightenment, except that instead of "coming back" to here, you leave to another plane without dying. It's a sort of immortality process.

The way you describe enlightenment, I've been there... mostly through traumatic and near death experiences that forced me to the brink of my sanity. So, that part of your description rings true. I've considered that maybe, for others, this process doesn't have to involve trauma. I suppose it depends on one's level of resistance to the process. What makes me question if enlightenment has actually happened is the "coming back" part. My impression, which may erroneous, is that enlightenment is all encompassing in its totality. If you become the truth then how is there any coming back from that? It would mean that ego is replaced with Truth, and it's that which is doing the talking.

It's also possible to be lulled asleep once you "come back", but my experience has been that life will continue to design circumstances for you to re-engage with the process again. You say that you must place the truth as your top priority; my experience has been that once you have even glimpsed the truth, it makes you its priority and there's no going back. It's the genii coming out of the bottle, so to speak. Again, this makes me wonder if the process is ever complete. If the circumstances take place to make you go there again, then surely that means the work is unfinished? Or is it meant to be that back and forth duality all the time?

At this point my feeling is that enlightenment is just stopping. It is the end of separation. It is complete silence and equanimity with all that is, which is complete nothingness and emptiness. I've met one or two people in my life who I was convinced were enlightened, or in the very least extremely high level. I did notice appreciable differences in their energy -- they were extremely calming, peaceful and loving to be around. They might not have felt that way internally, but they exuded it. Other than that, I didn't notice much other distinguishing features.

For where I'm at in my journey, my question is... when does suffering cease and peace commence? Through meditation we know that we are peace, so why does this process feel like such hell? How much killing of ego must be done before ego just goes quiet for good?

The celibacy part... not sure I 100% agree with, however, I do notice way more spiritual life force when I abstain.

 

[ComfortablyNumb95]

^ hey Foreigner, I'm very curios to hear about your experiences, or are they to personal?

 

[legalizeall]

I'm re-reading a really good book called "Awakening the Buddha Within" written by an American Buddhist, Lama Surya Das, which is suggested to be the "8 steps to enlightenment". Some of it is old hat (for me) but he is able to articulate some of the more esoteric Buddhist ideals very well- its a pleasure to read

My question is- what is enlightenment? Surya Das mentions in passing that the Buddha 'knew all things knowable'. How literally is that intended? The facetious part of my mind wants to asks if Buddha had knowledge of things like general relativity or other 'true' scientific knowledge. Could he have introduced cold fusion to the world, could he have answered Anselm's proof of god idea, did he understand the important role that vitamin b12 plays in our diet...?

My own conception of enlightenment is a state of mind where there is no negativity, where one can just 'exist' without passing judgments or taking things personally, where the subjective self can objectively witness reality without creating values or distinctions, and (perhaps most importantly) this state is continuous and almost static. I think many people have had a touch of this experience, through either drugs, spirituality or spontaneously, but it is usually fleeting and can be difficult to maintain.

But the idea that the Buddha knew all things suggests that absolutely all knowledge, empirical wisdom and hard fact is already contained within us, and we simply need to find a way to pull this knowledge up to the front of our consciousness...

Whats your conception of enlightenment and methods to bring it about?

I think you just explained serenity. No highs or lows but to exist with whatever is going on right now.

 

[-=SS=-]

Just curious what you think about the idea of ascension? It has many elements of enlightenment, except that instead of "coming back" to here, you leave to another plane without dying. It's a sort of immortality process.

The way you describe enlightenment, I've been there... mostly through traumatic and near death experiences that forced me to the brink of my sanity. So, that part of your description rings true. I've considered that maybe, for others, this process doesn't have to involve trauma. I suppose it depends on one's level of resistance to the process. What makes me question if enlightenment has actually happened is the "coming back" part. My impression, which may erroneous, is that enlightenment is all encompassing in its totality. If you become the truth then how is there any coming back from that? It would mean that ego is replaced with Truth, and it's that which is doing the talking.

It's also possible to be lulled asleep once you "come back", but my experience has been that life will continue to design circumstances for you to re-engage with the process again. You say that you must place the truth as your top priority; my experience has been that once you have even glimpsed the truth, it makes you its priority and there's no going back. It's the genii coming out of the bottle, so to speak. Again, this makes me wonder if the process is ever complete. If the circumstances take place to make you go there again, then surely that means the work is unfinished? Or is it meant to be that back and forth duality all the time?

At this point my feeling is that enlightenment is just stopping. It is the end of separation. It is complete silence and equanimity with all that is, which is complete nothingness and emptiness. I've met one or two people in my life who I was convinced were enlightened, or in the very least extremely high level. I did notice appreciable differences in their energy -- they were extremely calming, peaceful and loving to be around. They might not have felt that way internally, but they exuded it. Other than that, I didn't notice much other distinguishing features.

For where I'm at in my journey, my question is... when does suffering cease and peace commence? Through meditation we know that we are peace, so why does this process feel like such hell? How much killing of ego must be done before ego just goes quiet for good?

The celibacy part... not sure I 100% agree with, however, I do notice way more spiritual life force when I abstain.

I'm not convinced of the ascension idea. I came across several years ago when toying with new-age ideas and writings, but I haven't seen anything to really substantiate it. Seems more rooted in the desire for escape and fantasy than anything tangible in my opinion.

I think enlightenment is going to be tied to trauma as it is basically death, and no one wants to die. Intellectually maybe they're ready for it but when the time comes the survival ego will make itself known and there will be tremendous pain, or at least a great deal of despair as you realize that everything you've ever known (including yourself) was nothing more than fiction. As for coming back, you can't stay in that state or function from that state.. you got to get back in the game or the body will perish, so the egos do come back to an extent but you are irrevocably changed.

When does the suffering end? When you've had the final trip and identification with this show ends, though I imagine coming back into the game again will still throw up its suffering, you'll just be more indifferent to it at that point. I don't know really.. all of this is conjecture and me passing on perspective I've gained from reading and experiences of my own. The only people who know are those who've actually been there and back.

The celibacy thing is important, or at least sexual restriction. From an energy perspective, but also from the fact that it ties up the majority of your mind when you're playing that game. It underlies the majority of our thinking and until you confront it, reverse that particular vector, you'll just spin your wheels. It's one of the greatest secrets there is and also why enlightenment is beyond the reach of the masses.

---


This .pdf is a transcript of Richard Rose talking about his enlightenment experience: http://www.searchwithin.org/download/realization_richard_rose.pdf

 

[psood0nym]

I've always been curious about what's going on psychologically and neurologically during the tipping point to enlightenment. I strongly suspect that, at the level of brain pattern activity, there is an overlap with whatever underlies the experience of psychedelic ego death (a very loaded and confusing term, which I'd prefer was replaced with something like "ego phase change"). However, the genuinely "enlightened" individual has spent decades in meditation, physically and permanently reorganizing their brain intentionally via plastic long-term conditioning processes. I think it's this adaptation and all the procedures learned to manipulate consciousness that necessarily preceded it that allows them to spontaneously achieve the state soberly, and then go on to gracefully maintain it semi-permanently, returning at will. This deeply altered semi-permanent status contrasts markedly with psychedelically induced ego death, which almost invariably leads to slipping back into normal ego patterns after a few seconds/minutes of perceiving one's confused/terrified/suddenly abandoned ego as a mere activity pattern from an unprecedentedly detached, qualitatively distinct perspective.

 

[ParappaTheRapper]

...

 

[What 23]

To be enlightened.

I didn't like the people from the next town over. Then I was forced to work with them. I now see I was in error. It was an enlightening experience.

I didn't understand something. Someone englightened me.

Enlightenment is a process.

To be enlightened? To have wisdom/"knowledge".

 

[rickolasnice]

^ Pretty much this.

 

[ProphetofProfit]

[possible nonsense]
Beyond the mind apparently, where all concepts are unable to reach. Which is why all words are demon words. If the supreme reality is indeed prior to space, time and causality, we are all IT but are somehow ignorant of this fact, and any attempt at seeking leads us away from where/what we are. Hence Maharshi recommends Atma-Vicara or Self-Inquiry, Nisargadatta does the same and Franklin Jones, before he went nuts, described the method as 'Understanding'. What's funny is the both Kant and Nisargadatta Maharaj came to the same conclusion regarding the ideality of space-time-causality from completely different directions and with Maharaj having no education and being unable to read.
[/possible nonsense]

Psood0nym: this might be useful

Enlightenment, Self and the Brain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqrpKUTMXgY

 

[psood0nym]

Psood0nym: this might be useful

Enlightenment, Self and the Brain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqrpKUTMXgY

Thanks, that was useful! At about 1:05:30, after discussing enlightenment in terms of ego death, professor Murphy theorizes from empirical observations that the moment of "enlightenment" occurs when a surge of activity in the right amygdala, which is often experienced as shock or terror, suddenly shifts to the left amygdala across the anterior commissure and is inhibited from crossing back over to the right. Then at 1:08:30 an audience member asks if there is "humming, buzzing, and vibrating" during this process. Murphy responds that he thinks it's very possible there could be because the sudden chaotic shift in bioelectric activity might plausibly result in a spilling over of charge into a proximal brain structure called the caudate nucleus, which is implicated in our experience of somatic sensations like vibrations.

A response of mine to a post about ego death made by the PD moderator Xorkoth from way back in 2006 included the following consistent observation about each of my four experiences of ego death:

In all the aforementioned personal experiences the start was marked by being violently jarred by a loud buzzing/ripping noise—quite similar to that that an old computer would make on returning an error—accompanied by a quite literal electrical shock and an adrenaline jolt. This marked the inception of “mere pattern awareness” or ego death.

I was convinced Xorkoth had experienced ego death (rather than the extreme ego dissolution many think is ego death) because he wrote of the same sudden, terror affiliated, radical qualitative shift during a 2C-E experience. But it's this sudden electrical jolt and sound (there are projections from the auditory cortex to the caudate nucleous that could serve as a bridge for a further spill over of electrical activity into aural hallucinations) that I've always held onto as my personal indelible marker of ego death. Of course, no "marker" like this is required because there's no doubt when it's happened.

In fact, the lack of doubt accompanying my first experience of ego death during an IM DPT trip was particularly surreal because after the jolt/sound/shift I heard the voice of my internal monologue exclaim "That was it! .. this is it!" while simultaneously perceiving the sequence of internal vocalizations as a pattern carrying on in a way totally disengaged from the locus of my awareness. The "it" I observed my ego pattern referring to was "enlightenment," which was very strange because I wasn't involved in the recognition and analysis of what was happening despite the whole episode being narrated by my voice! Concluding that I sure as hell wasn't "enlightened" by the experience, it didn't take long for me to realize that true enlightenment must include a permanent physical shift in the foundational architecture of the mind, built up through many years of disciplined work with consciousness, that supports the semi-permanent maintenance of ego death's activity pattern in the brain. In the context of the experience of ego death then, psychedelic drugs might be thought of metaphorically as cinder blocks used to temporarily lay this foundation down for us "squatters" before metabolic processes quickly wash the ground out from under it.

All this strikes me as a fleshing out and further confirmation of the notion that there is a fundamental overlap between true psychedelic ego death and what's referred to as enlightenment in spiritual traditions, bearing in mind a few critical distinctions. Thanks again!

 

[swilow]

To be enlightened.

I didn't like the people from the next town over. Then I was forced to work with them. I now see I was in error. It was an enlightening experience.

I didn't understand something. Someone englightened me.

By that logic, if I ask you the time and you tell me, I have been enlightened- which is true, sure, but that's not what I was asking. We are talking about the vaster form of spiritual enlightenment which is transcendental and encompasses all things, including time, our neighbours and everything else.

I agree that enlightenment probably also encompasses the mundane though...

 

[Foreigner]

^ hey Foreigner, I'm very curios to hear about your experiences, or are they to personal?

Which experiences?

 

[What 23]

By that logic, if I ask you the time and you tell me, I have been enlightened- which is true, sure, but that's not what I was asking. We are talking about the vaster form of spiritual enlightenment which is transcendental and encompasses all things, including time, our neighbours and everything else.

I agree that enlightenment probably also encompasses the mundane though...

lol I knew what you were asking.

But I'm not sure that that "state" is really possible. Or, rather, it can't be held in a static position. What would be the point in staying if we transcended?

To be enlightened as we think of it outside of simply being enlightened about something, is to be in a "state" (still oscillating?) of enlightenment.

I see it (just now, abstract) like being a cavern that water flows through on one or more ends/points and out the other in another (s). Our minds can only process so much. But, we might perhaps be carved out enough that the flow of water through a point in us, allows this state. Perhaps its always there. We're born with that place within.

*Goes and bangs head against the wall a few times and then makes peace, decides to do something else (sleep). It'll come when it comes/needs to.

I think enlightenment comes and goes. We get moments where we transcend. We get moments where we get it. It all adds into the overall experiences and shapes us... But we are still animals here, and lapse. We blink, or , rather perhaps, become distracted with "what is" out there, or anything(?) (Because what are we transcending, anyways?). We forget (sin).

Enlightenment might be, in its greatest sense if "found" through transcendence, nirvana.

 

[ComfortablyNumb95]

@Foreigner

The way you describe enlightenment, I've been there... mostly through traumatic
and near death experiences that forced me to the brink of my sanity.

 

[Ninae]

The holy/divine child.

A beauty that surpasses this world and the wisdom of someone past a 100 years. Very proud and humble at the same time, as those types tend to be, but with little concern for himself. He could have just enjoyed himself and not given a fuck about anyone else like most would. But he just wanted everyone to be as happy and blessed as he was, and despaired at the nature and plight of his beloved fellow human beings.

All his life was devoted to impoving the human condition from then on and it makes you feel ashamed of yourself. And the spirit of Jesus very was strong in that child, I can feel it, or recognise the energy. A bit different from the usual Crucifix, isn't it? And the last scene when he looks out at the people, like he understands everything, is eerie.

 

[swilow]

^Possibly wrong thread?

You do realise that was a movie and not actually found footage? (fuck, wouldn't it have been amazing if they had found a DVD amongst the dead sea scrolls!) :D

 

[Ninae]

It was a example of a seemingly enlightened child.

Viewing those shots really hit you in the stomach...great casting. Highly inspired child with the mark of the spirit. Changed me forever. The Holy Spirit is all around him. Eyes such that can't be described (and I don't just mean the blue colour). Extremely highly vibrating - almost unfomfortable to watch.

Consistent with descriptions of Jesus that he could "strike love and fear in you at the same time". Wouldn't have liked to stand before him with my unconfessed sins.