Extraction of bupivacaine from ketamine lotion

[ryand123]

So I have found info stating that bupivacaines solubility in water is 40mg/L. Ketamine is freely soluble in water so in theory could I do a CWE of the bupivacaine and throw out the insolubles and drink the water with the ketamine in it?

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

I wouldn't be sure, but if you ended up with a solution of ketamine could you not also boil off the water and obtain pure crystal?

 

[ryand123]

Well the ketamine is in a lotion for transdermal use :/. It has a variety of other drugs in there but the bupivacaine is the one that makes this lotion dangerous for oral consumption. I don't really care if the other drugs and inactives (which are unknown cuz it is a lotion made by a compound pharmacy) are filtered out or not because they are in such miniscule amounts. But the bupivacaine is very hard on the heart when used systemically. So, any idea if I could just do a CWE on the lotion.

 

[Solipsis]

Moving PD >> ADD

The background for this thread can be found in this other earlier thread: K lotion?
In which you can find why I warned against this.

Anyway maybe one of you guys knows of a property of bupivacaine that allows for a foolproof procedure...

 

[sekio]

Bupivacaine Hydrochloride
[...]
Soluble 1 in 25 of water and 1 in 8 of ethanol; slightly soluble in acetone, chloroform, and ether.
(sekio note: also very likely sol. in methanol)

Ketamine Hydrochloride
[...]
Soluble 1 in 4 of water, 1 in 14 of ethanol and 1 in 6 of methanol; sparingly soluble in chloroform; practically insoluble in ether.
(sekio note: presumably slightly soluble in acetone)

I guess unless you have large amounts of diethyl ether and the skills to handle it safely... you may be in trouble.

Another option would be chromatography. Either way I would nto do much with a cream as-is, I would first try to isloate some mixture of ketamine and bupivicaine.

 

[Hammilton]

Why is there a ketamine-bupivacaine lotion? Is this a common thing?

 

[sekio]

Both are fairly effective topical anesthetics when applied locally. It's not meant for systemic administration.

It's not super common, but I bet that getting some topical ketamine gel is more likely than getting a flat of vials.

 

[trigeminalbooboo]

I'm working on the same problem. Bupivacaine and Ketamine are very similar and I have not found a way to isolate one from the other. Bup is slightly less soluble in water but there's not enough difference to be valuable. IOW my cream is 10% K and 1% bup, trying to use a CWE would only increase the ratio of bup. I think the only way to do it is to know the ph necessary to precipitate out the K and Bup. Bup is highly toxic so a solid QA process would be necessary. I've been on opiates for pain and they are no longer useful - I have found the pain cream makes my neuralgia go away when it's applied to a trigger point that is inside my left nostril. Since some of the cream drips down the back of my throat I'm very nervous about the Bupivacaine so I'd like to isolate it out. My pain doc is working with the compounding pharmacy on a new formulation but it's going to take weeks before I get it. I am going to postulate a way and hope a smart chemist provides feedback.
First of all, don't do this - I'm just putting out a first draft of a process.
1 - Determine a fool proof way to identify traces of Bupivacaine in various forms (hcl, base, etc). This is necessary to ensure quality
2 - Dilute a small amount of the pain cream in hot water so the alcohol evaporates out, cool and filter
3 - Since the creams have Bupivacaine HCL and Ketamine HCL it might be possible that the bases are not water soluable. If so, then Identify the ph of the solution that will cause either the Bup or the K to precipitate out.
4 - Get some NaOH and litmus paper and titrate the solution until either the K or the Bup precipitates.
5 - Filter out the precipitate.
6 - Test the precipitate and solution for Bupivacaine.

I've looked around the web for this kind of data and I find conflicting or vague information. Since Bupivacaine is toxic I'm not comfortable doing this. I believe the Ketamine's NMDA influence relieves my painful nerve problem.

 

[ryand123]

Trigeminal- does your lotion have gabapentin, ketoprofen, and cyclobenzeprine in it also? I'm wondering if you have the same one as I do. It's unlikely, but not impossible, so I thought I'de ask because I you do I have a question for you: Does your cream have little tiny crystals in it? I have little salt like crystals in mine and I am intrested to know if you had any ideas as to what that is, if you have the same cream that is. They are hard and they don't dissolve at all, it's weird. All they do is clog my pores, they don't get absorbed by my skin. I was hopin maybe that was maybe either the bupivacaine or ketamine.

 

[Serotonin101]

Is it possible the crystals are meant to exfoliate the skin, causing fresh new skin to better absorption of the cream? I'm sure transdermal application isn't as efficient if you have loads of dead skin to go through first (might not be your case but I'm sure it is for some).

 

[ryand123]

Serotonin- Now that you mention that it might be an exfoliant, that makes a lot more sense than one of the drugs precipitating out of the cream and crystallizing. Even when the crystals are on my body they won't dissolve, so I think you may be right about that.