RCs O-Desmethyltramadol Bio-availability user survey. Please Help.

Alright, so there aren't numbers out there for the Bio-Availability of various ROA's with this substance. It is getting increasingly popular, so I'm thinking that everyone on bluelight who has done this is going to help. I really think that this is in the best interest of harm reduction, without reliable numbers, chemicals can be dangerous. The very essence of what we do is spread information to users to allow them to make better decisions.
Why this substance and not one of the many other RC's out there? Quite frankly, it is an opiate RC and thus it has inherent risks that many other rc's might not, as well as a potentially very negative stigma around it since it is unique. If we are to avoid that stigma, we need to stay safe and make sure nobody fucks up and dies on this shit.

If we take some data from people who have used this substance regarding what they felt was equivalent doses via different ROA's, and get a wide cross-section of users, we are probably going to get numbers accurate to +/- 10%.

We could also increase the usefulness of the survey by comparing the dose that first made you feel "high" with the highest dose you took without adverse effects to establish some kind of safety profile for this substance.


It's like we're almost doing science here....





If you compare it to other opiate molecules, its looks can give some clues as to what the BA might be, but I wont post my conjecture so as to not color the results.

All indications are that its equivalency to morphine is somewhere between 9:1 up to 3:1 Hopefully you can help me pin that down, too.

This can also, give us information, so if you can compare it to another known amount of opiate you frequently do, that would be helpful.

so, INFORMATION FOR THE SURVEY.
-------

Please give the dose amounts in mg which you took via these following ROA's

Doses should be given for each ROA for what you felt were equivalent physiological effects.

In the last column, give what you felt the dose was equivalent to in an opiate you do frequently.





[BLANK] Oral | Intranasal | Rectal | IV/IM/SC | Opiate MG
Dose|



Typical Recreational Dose:
Highest Dose Taken:



Thanks! I will start compiling data asap.

I too would very much like to know the bioavailability of different ROA. But, In order to make an educated guess wouldn't you first have to experienced 100% bioavailability through IV in order to compare it to oral/insufflated/plugged?

While I cannot even guess as to the bioavailability of these ROA, I can say from my limited personal experience that plugged > insufflated > oral.

You would not have to experience 100% BA actually. A comparison of :

Oral: 250mgs = Intranasl: 180mg = Plugged: 140mg is a valuable comparison, because it lets us know how much stronger snorting or plugging is once we get several people's info. Also, enough people have used IV that we will get some #'s for that eventually and be able to compare.

Please put up your dose numbers! I need info from everyone who has done this substance to make this work. If you have to estimate, do so and just indicate that in your post.

I am not asking you to estimate the BA, just to tell me what doses via different ROA's felt similar

To clarify, I want any comments you have, and for you to fill this out:

[BLANK] Oral | Intranasal | Rectal | IV/IM/SC | Opiate MG
Dose|



Typical Recreational Dose:
Highest Dose Taken:

Example:
For me, 250mg oral = 180mgIN = 100mg IV, and that felt like 8mg of dilaudid to me,

(So mine would look like this) :


[BLANK] -Oral- | -Intranasal- | -Rectal- | -IV/IM/SC- | -Opiate MG
Dose|-------250------------ 80---------N/A---------100-----------8 hydromorphone



Typical Recreational Dose: 60mg via IV
Highest Dose Taken: 800mg IV

(Those numbers are made up, don't base anything on them, you might die)

Thank you for the detailed explanation! After further experimentation I will gladly contibute my findings.

[BLANK] -Oral- | -Intranasal- | -Rectal- | -IV/IM/SC- | -Opiate MG
Dose|------120---------N/A----------70-----------N/A--------350mg codeine



Typical Recreational Dose: 75mg plugged or 100mg - 120mg orally
Highest Dose Taken: 80mg plugged

Opioids I have done are kratom, codeine, buprenorphine, ethylmorphine, tramadol and this o-dtm. By far I find this strongest, but then again it's very subjective. Some people don't get much of effects from many opioids, like all the ones I mentioned.

[BLANK] -Oral- | -Intranasal- | -Rectal- | -IV/IM/SC- | -Opiate MG
Dose|-------N/A---------150------------70-------------N/A----------N/A

I can't really compare with other opiates due to lack of experience.

I took my first oral dose last night of 50mg. It took a while for the effects to come on fully, an hour or so, but when they eventually did I thought it was comparable to a similar rectal dose. I am not including this figure in the table as I would be happier if I'd tried oral dosing several times before making such a judgement; also it seems contrary to expectations (and other reports).

This seems like a worthwhile effort but I think it would be sensible to exercise a healthy measure of scepticism towards the method. All kinds of variables are not accounted for. Above all its very difficult to judge the degree of "intoxication". I suspect the reason I felt the oral dose was quite strong was partly due to the fact I spent most of the time lying in bed, concentrating on the high. Other times I've dosed I've got on with other things, I wasn't focussing on how I felt quite so much.

The difference in onset times also affects this judgement. I find rectal admin hits within minutes, but with nasal or oral it takes much longer. So, at least with nasal dosing, I have ended up redosing as I wasn't feeling the full effects. Perhaps there is a ceiling effect, if I'd waited longer without redosing the effects might eventually have become stronger and consequently the nasal doses might be overstated.

There is no collection of ROA for the "known" model opiate, this surely needs factored in.

A more scientific approach might be to determine "minimum dose at which puking occurs"! That doesn't sound like much fun though! At least not the cleaning up. But the problem with carrying out the extensive controlled testing required to establish such a figure is the inevitable development of tolerance. It would take forever, dosing 50mg orally then waiting a few days to prevent tolerance, then 60mg and waiting, and so on, then repeating the process for rectal.

Anyway, I don't mean to just criticise, it's a good effort all the same and the results will be interesting.

Thank you for your contributions. I know it isn't going to be perfect, but this should give some type of range.

Oral | Intranasal | Rectal | IV/IM/SC | Opiate MG
Dose| 110mg----------N/A--------------60mg---------N/A------------20mg Oxycodone



Typical Recreational Dose: 100mg Oral+
Highest Dose Taken: 140mg Oral

You can't assess bioavailability subjectively, at least not in a quantitative manner... There are too many variables such as tolerance and individual variability in tissue absorption. The easiest way I would guess is to take blood samples, spin them to plasma and then use HPLC versus a standard to find out the concentration.

It may be useful in getting an idea of the relative bioavailabilty of different ROAs. But yeah, tolerance and subjective measure of effects will make it fairly inaccurate.

I am going to do blood samples on myself once I get mine, I just want some approximate data to compare it to.

I really don't think it will be that inaccurate. Like I said, maybe +/- 10%, but I wouldn't be surprised if after maybe 30 data points if it came to within =/-5% of the actual BA, that is, if we ever get a large-scale blood plasma concentration study.

Besides, it is better than not having any data on this compound, so please contribute, if only to get a standardized table of users subjective effects.

Oral: anything between 90- 250 mgs, the larger doses generally split in two
Rectal: haven't tried it
IV: stupidly I hit up 200 mgs in one go. It was pretty good and didn't feel dangerous.
Intranasal: naah, haven't tried that either,don't think I want to either, it tastes pretty rank.
Opiate equivalence: I'd say about one 10 bag of street smack.

And you see, here's the problem with a study like this, our responses are so idiosyncratic....

I am aware of the problems... Are you able to put your responses into this table?

[BLANK] -Oral- | -Intranasal- | -Rectal- | -IV/IM/SC- | -Opiate MG
Dose|------120---------N/A----------70-----------N/A--------350mg codeine



It would be so Uber helpful if you could, even if you need to estimate that XXmg IV'd would be similar to XXXmg when snorted... see what I'm getting at? If you estimate, just write at the top that you estimated equivalent doses.

Guys, I know that this "study" isn't perfect, but it's the best we have right now, so please, please help me make it work.

Oral: 35mg
Rectal: 15mg
IV: 10mg
Intranasal: 20mg
Opiate equivalence: 10mg morphine

Also, O-DT have a posible "ceiling effect" similar to codeine and bruprenorphine. But im not really sure...

Oral: ~500mg per dose 1-2g a day (not sure how long for, a week or so of high dose after finishing last lot of WD)
IV: 250mg (only done once or twice)
much better than the street h in the uk atm

Been using this substance for a while now,
day 3 of the WD (again) and it aint too bad, certainly isnt a cakewalk got no energy havnt been able to eat owt or get out of bed, shit its first time iv checked my phone or been on BL or done anything. still feel a bit better today, so its onwards & upwards!

ColourfulKronos said:

Oral: ~500mg per dose 1-2g a day (not sure how long for, a week or so of high dose after finishing last lot of WD)
IV: 250mg (only done once or twice)
much better than the street h in the uk atm

Been using this substance for a while now,
day 3 of the WD (again) and it aint too bad, certainly isnt a cakewalk got no energy havnt been able to eat owt or get out of bed, shit its first time iv checked my phone or been on BL or done anything. still feel a bit better today, so its onwards & upwards!

Click to expand...

You seem to have very high tolerance.

Never been a huge opaite fan, done brown/oxy/dhc/codeine etc a few times in the past (never getting any tolerance, uses were spaced maybe 2 times in a week then a yearr gap untill this)

Whilest experimenting with this compound i was doing other opiates. About 2 months of heavy using, not sure how fast tolerance to opiates usually builds but thats how it ended up for me. knocked it on the head now before it gets much worse, just about getting my energy back after days stuck in bed with no energy unable to eat etc after stopping cold turkey

But yeah, a class of drugs i'm not going near again. Too much of an addictive personality.

ColourfulKronos said:

Never been a huge opaite fan, done brown/oxy/dhc/codeine etc a few times in the past (never getting any tolerance, uses were spaced maybe 2 times in a week then a yearr gap untill this)

Whilest experimenting with this compound i was doing other opiates. About 2 months of heavy using, not sure how fast tolerance to opiates usually builds but thats how it ended up for me. knocked it on the head now before it gets much worse, just about getting my energy back after days stuck in bed with no energy unable to eat etc after stopping cold turkey

But yeah, a class of drugs i'm not going near again. Too much of an addictive personality.

Click to expand...

There is going around this bad batch of o-desmethyltramadol, so it's pretty sure that its what you are using. Its actually normal tramadol, not o-dtm. So it needs 3x times higher dose.

No. I'm very experienced with regular tramadol, and i trust the source i got it from, it wasnt that dodgy place thats selling regular tramadol as odmt. When i first started using odmt my doses were about 100mg i think, 150mg for a near nod (oral) and i wouldnt even feel 100mg of regular tramadol. Its not an opiate i've ever nodded off, even in very high doses, infact it keeps me awake.

But yeah, i cant be 100% that what i had was odmt without lab testing it personally but im as sure as i can be otherwise. Definitely wasnt tramadol in any case.