Yopo: Calcium hydroxide vs Calcium carbonate

[Jackplays]

I know that calcium hydroxide, when mixed with yopo increases it's activity, but does the same apply with calcium carbonate? Iv heard that sodium bicarbonate can have the same effect, but not entirely sure.

 

[Solipsis]

If anything sodium carbonate not BIcarbonate (they are different), however it is less recommended as sodium carbonate might dry out your nose way more. I am also not sure if calcium is nicer in the way it could complex, but that is mostly true when doing more extensive chemistry on things like bufotenin that really may not apply to your nose.

Using bicarbonate will not give you the full visionary experience according to Ott.

Calcium carbonate should work, since sometimes limestone paste is used. But that is said to require more material for a proper experience, on the other hand it sounds like it is effective. Maybe pure calcium carbonate is better or worse: less dilute than in limestone paste but depending on the mineral salt you are actually getting it may be more crystalline and insoluble and less reactive. So I'd always grind that stuff to an ultra fine powder.

Read this though:

Shamans prepare yopo snuff from the toasted pulverized seeds of either Anadenanthera colubrina or Anadenanthera peregrina which is then mixed with water and a source of a calcium carbonate. Calcined shells are often used as the source of calcium carbonate. The mixture is kneaded while wet and allowed to sit and react, often overnight. Before use it is toasted again to dry it, and it is again ground to produce a fine powder.

Many anecdotal reports indicate that authentic yopo prepared by skilled shamans in South America has hallucinogenic effects that differ dramatically from those of bufotenine and swear that some reaction must be taking place when the recipe is followed properly.

Clearly the shamans would not do this extended procedure if it did not enhance the effects. By adding calcium carbonate, they are greatly increasing the quantity of material needed for use. The calcium also makes the snuff more alkaline and more irritating to the nasal passages.

http://herbpedia.wikidot.com/the-yopo-transformation-theory

 

[Jackplays]

Ok, thanks. I just keep getting confused since everybody seems to have differing information on the subject. Why would sodium carbonate be preferable to sodium bicarbonate? Is Na2Co3 more basic than NaHCo3? I could use Sodium carbonate, Sodium bicarbonate, and probably calcium carbonate, as I have them readily available, or can make it in the case of sodium carbonate. Calcium hydroxide would be a pain as id need to order it online.

 

[Solipsis]

I think yes @ being more basic: bicarbonate is a pretty weak base.

Calcium carbonate sounds fine honestly

 

[sekio]

For best results, calcium hydroxide should be used as it's the strongest base. Traditionally people would have calcined (heated to glowing) CaCO₃ and then added water (you generate calcium oxide via heating and losing the CO₂ then add water to make Ca(OH)₂) Calcium carbonate has poor solubility so might not work very well!

Basicity goes OH^- >> CO3^2- > HCO3^- by the way, so sodium hydroxide is way stronger than sodium carbonate, etc.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

I always used c hydroxide but the link the op links to says carbonate is the way to go. Ive only had casual experiments so im no authority.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Should have it at the grocery store as picklin' salt.

Ok, thanks. I just keep getting confused since everybody seems to have differing information on the subject. Why would sodium carbonate be preferable to sodium bicarbonate? Is Na2Co3 more basic than NaHCo3? I could use Sodium carbonate, Sodium bicarbonate, and probably calcium carbonate, as I have them readily available, or can make it in the case of sodium carbonate. Calcium hydroxide would be a pain as id need to order it online.

 

[Bagseed]

the aim is to create an alkoxide at the 5-oh group, right? the stronger the base the better, pka of the oh group is probably around 10 (phenolic)

 

[Jackplays]

the aim is to create an alkoxide at the 5-oh group, right? the stronger the base the better, pka of the oh group is probably around 10 (phenolic)

I believe the point is to freebase the bufotenine, but it is also thought the calcium might create a new substance that is even stronger.

 

[Bagseed]

yeah apparantly the whole calcium salt thing is not really established afterall. I read of it a few years ago, but researching it yesterday it seems not to be possible in this fashion.

 

[Solipsis]

You want the stronger base but only insofar as to go a few (~2) orders of magnitude above the pKa of bufotenin, although I guess it is hard to calculate and involves solubility as it is about the conditions on your nasal mucosal membrane... I'm only saying you don't necessarily want the stronger base as at a certain point it may not matter anymore and you might be destroying your nose, similar to how 99% purity and 99.9% purity doesn't matter (if the rest isn't toxic).

No true the calcium bufotenate theory is supposed to be debunked. I'm not sure if I was aware that it was supposed to be more effective anyway... I thought at least it would just be a preferred form like calcium morphenate.

I don't think you'd want to form the freebase: for other tryptamines the freebase isn't really so soluble either nor a pleasure to snort as they just sit around burning in your nose (although less furiously than something like a lot of 2C-X)

Anyway why am I only finding one pKa for bufotonin, isn't it a zwitterion or at least a compound with an acidic and basic group?

 

[Jackplays]

I'm not very knowledgable on the chemistry just yet, so I don't really get what you're trying to say in the last paragraph. I'm also not 100% sure what a pKa is, but I'm pretty sure it's at what pH is optimal for the substance to be soluble. I only really have my basic understanding of it, and from what I read and understand its that the salt form of bufotenine is significantly less active than the freebase. Could it be possible that even if the freebase isn't as soluble as the salt (which I know should be the case), that it is so many magnitudes more active that it doesn't really matter, and feels stronger as a result? Correct me if I'm wrong, but combining a basic compound with the bufotenine freebase it (given that I'm probably wrong, I would like an explanation as to why I'm wrong, as I do want to learn more about this, but can't find anything specific on these subjects to read)

 

[Bagseed]

the pKa is the negative log(base 10) of the acid constant Ka.. the smaller the pKa, the more acidic a proton is, which means a higher portion of the compound will be deprotonated in water. eg the pKa of HCl is much smaller than that of acetic acid, making it a stronger acid overall.

btw I thought about it, and having a phenolate would probably be more caustic to your mucous membrane than the freebase anyway, no?

 

[Solipsis]

Actually it does appear so that the base is meant as a quick in situ STB preparation of the freebase. The point stands that you'd only need a base strong enough to freebase the salts in the seeds when you make a paste after the first toasting and before the second toasting, probably somewhat similar to how DMT is present in plants as e.g. the tannate salt - STB of that is done more elaborately of course.
Ott apparently also just experimented with prepared freebase without any base present apart from bicarb which he says was just a drying agent to grind the product better... seems a bit of a curious practice but it is an option.

Yeah I wouldn't expect the phenolate to be all that pleasant.

The 5-HO must make a big difference for whether the salt form or freebase form is more effective to snort - or alternatively the answer here is that the tannate type salts or possibly even more complex organic salts are terribly insoluble so unsnortable and the freebase is better (i must admit, while snorting 5-MeO-DMT is not great it does work). Maybe if you convert it to a HCl it is superior to the other options but I don't know if it's very willing... although, why not?

 

[Morninggloryseed]

But some bufotenine salts, i think the citrate but could have been the hcl..turn people egg plant blue in the face. See bufotenine studies from 50s.

 

[Solipsis]

I know of such reports but thought they were considered to be caused by certain impurities... If it's the protonation / form of the compound I didn't know and it would be pretty interesting a difference.