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Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?

Gnostic Bishop

Gnostic Bishop

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Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?

Christians seem to think that Jesus took the punishment for sinners with his sacrifice/suicide on the cross. IOW, Christians see Jesus as asking Christians to abdicate their responsibility for their own sins and punishments.

If humans asked that, it would be considered quite immoral and unjust. All courts try hard to punish the guilty and not the innocent.

These quotes are what I think Jesus would have taught on this issue, him being a Jewish Rabbi.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments, yet Christians are doing just that in trying to use Jesus as their scapegoat.

Regards
DL
 
In no way do true believers use Jesus as a scapegoat. IAM sure there are misguided that do this.
But if you truly understand his sacrifice. Then you know he died and went to hell, so those who live through his teachings do not need to.
Yet there are very few that actually do this!
 
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Yeshua, assuming he existed went against the Pharisees. That was the end of that. Christians can claim whatever they want because they created a religion, which by the way goes against Judaism

No wonder God got mad
 
Kbull said:
In no way do true believers use Jesus as a scapegoat.
Click to expand...

I do not know any believer. There are none if I use the words of Jesus who said that anyone who even had a bit of faith or belief could do all he did and more.

Are you a believer? Have you started your Jesus type work?

You seem to be saying that Christians have rejected the sacrifice Jesus is said to have made.

Explain how they plan on saving themselves please.

Kbull said:
IAM sure there are misguided that do this.
Click to expand...

The vast majority. Right?

Kbull said:
Then you know he died and went to hell,
Click to expand...

Scriptures have Jesus telling the other on the cross that they would both be in heaven that day.

What do you have that shows otherwise, and if god cannot abide where sin is, how can he be in hell?

Kbull said:
Yet there are very few that actually do this!
Click to expand...

I agree. Christianity is well known for lies and hipocracy.

Regards
DL
 
Gnostic Bishop said:
Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?

Christians seem to think that Jesus took the punishment for sinners with his sacrifice/suicide on the cross.
Click to expand...
who do you think are these innocents?

it's my understanding that, in the view of christianity, there are no innocents. everyone is a sinner.

alasdair
 
alasdairm said:
who do you think are these innocents?

it's my understanding that, in the view of christianity, there are no innocents. everyone is a sinner.

alasdair
Click to expand...
The innocent people would be those who don't directly oppose God. A farmer who tends his flock is a good example of a law abiding and God fearing human being. Someone, or a tribe who opposes God by building idols so they can get away with heinous murder and pillaging would be considered idolaters or sinners who anger the Judaic God

Prostitutes would be condemned, drug addicts, pedophiles etc We are really talking about the stone age here in terms of acceptance of differing cultural practices, but that's how it was back then

I know Christianity says we were never innocent, because we are born on this Earth which is full of sin. It's futile to even try to understand what these people are talking about
 
Christianity is this big thing now with huge institutions and billions of followers, but if you study the history of the Mediterranean around the time Jesus died, his crucifixion went practically unnoticed except for his cult following. Some guy challenged the law, got punished, and died a martyr in the eyes of his followers. The death of Jesus wasn't even committed to writing until about 50 years later. The gospels that followed were some centuries later.

Christianity was basically viewed as a cult that literally lived underground in the catacombs of Rome because their behaviour was so ridiculous to the Romans at the time. Then they gradually won the support of Constantine who deemed all religion permissible in Rome, and all hell broke lose. Then when Rome fell and got divided into East and West, the Byzantine Empire practically justified its existence by the grace of God and began some of the earliest Crusades.

Christianity is and always has been a cult that has won popularity through brute force. First by gaining political support, then by murdering its opposition, then by finally exterminating most of the pagan world it could get its hands on. Of course you'll look just and true if all your opposition are dead and you breed your twisted world view into all born children. Christiandom's entire pedestal is owed to the victors writing the history books, including endless modifications of the Bible itself, an allegedly inscrutable book because it is the word of God, except it is the word of countless men over the millennia, some of whom were not even Christian.

The endless contradictions in Christianity combined with its ruthless history lead me to believe that we should not be doing much soul searching through this faith. The vast majority of the world who believe in Christianity are indoctrinated as children or when their lives become so broken that their will is easily manipulated into believing this cult. The damage they have done to humanity over the ages is impossible to tally. Millions and millions and millions of people killed in the name of God, not to mention precious knowledge of the ancient world burned.

If one is Christian, then they should be listening to what Jesus said. Until Jesus came along, Genesis said that Adam and Eve's betrayal of God in the Garden was the source of humanity's downfall and therefore original sin. Jesus, assuming he existed, seemed to endorse the idea that this story is non-sense and martyred himself in order to teach people that they are free of sin. It was a bait and switch, really. I don't believe the story of his resurrection, or frankly most of his life. It's all window dressing to support the primacy of the lie that the story tells. Nonetheless, the Catholic Church is so fucked up that they have convinced people they are sinners even after their prime martyr said it's not true. Figure that one out.

But since I'm not Christian I don't particularly care what Jesus said or the Church. All I care about is that that cult of an institution never regains global power again because they will just start killing people and suppressing freedom. My prayer is that in the coming centuries the Vatican goes bankrupt and becomes a museum or something.
 
Yeah, Christianity is wrong. It's not about becoming a better person but someone better focused on [Christian] morality, which is completely false. It doesn't matter who preaches, but Christianity teaches that a man who breaks all the rules and is basically immortal is the one to teach morality

The basis of Christianity is uncertain when you've read the Bible a few times through. It makes no sense. It's like someone started quoting dead saints to make sense of the New Testament, especially Revelation

Anyone who takes these things literally must either be a genius (I'm not) or deluded. There's no other way to explain the idiocy here. Things like parting the sea and walking on water, well which came first? Ask a Christian and they won't have an answer because it's all nonsense

I accept that God could part the sea and I'm an atheist; but this is for the sake of argument. Walking on water is impossible for a man so unless there's proof, I say that it's completely untrue

On a positive note, I wouldn't worry about Christianity influencing any society. It's after all a false teaching and not a real religion that actually harms people. People influenced by it chose to be due to some interest in it, for whatever reason. I don't care what they actually believe. It's probably different than what numbers show
 
What was done to Jesus was unjust and tragedy.
That's the point of the legend, the myth. That's what makes it so powerful.
Most purest being there can be, greatest and humblest is helping people, he's healing them and praying for them.
He claims to be the son of God and does miracles to prove it.
This being, who's so pure as anyone can be gets betrayed in the worst manner possible. He dies in the worst way possible.
But he forgives.
He got killed by humans and him being killed was a huge sin.
He died for the sins of people who betrayed and killed him.
 
As literature the Bible is interesting and well-written, but it's not meant to be a guide on how to live or treat others. That's why people cherry pick and take things they value, because if everything was taken out in context it wouldn't work
 
alasdairm said:
who do you think are these innocents?

it's my understanding that, in the view of christianity, there are no innocents. everyone is a sinner.

alasdair
Click to expand...

Correct, except Jesus, who they plan to ride as their scapegoat into heaven.

Have you abdicated your responsibility to pay for your sins?

If so, you sin in trying to ride on Jesus yourself.

Regards
DL
 
DeadManWalkin' said:
What was done to Jesus was unjust and tragedy.
That's the point of the legend, the myth. That's what makes it so powerful.
Most purest being there can be, greatest and humblest is helping people, he's healing them and praying for them.
He claims to be the son of God and does miracles to prove it.
This being, who's so pure as anyone can be gets betrayed in the worst manner possible. He dies in the worst way possible.
But he forgives.
He got killed by humans and him being killed was a huge sin.
He died for the sins of people who betrayed and killed him.
Click to expand...

That is the myth.

You seem to blame everyone but Jesus. You forget that he wanted to test the messianic prophesy and set the conditions for himself to do so.

He failed that test as he did not return to rule over the Jews.

Jesus could not die for our sins as that goes against everything he taught. It would be immoral to ride him as a scapegoat and just as immoral; for him to ask you to abdicate your responsibility for your actions.

Regards
DL
 
Gnostic Bishop said:
Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?

Christians seem to think that Jesus took the punishment for sinners with his sacrifice/suicide on the cross. IOW, Christians see Jesus as asking Christians to abdicate their responsibility for their own sins and punishments.

If humans asked that, it would be considered quite immoral and unjust. All courts try hard to punish the guilty and not the innocent.

These quotes are what I think Jesus would have taught on this issue, him being a Jewish Rabbi.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments, yet Christians are doing just that in trying to use Jesus as their scapegoat.

Regards
DL
Click to expand...
Im pretty sure psalm 49 is not stated in the same context as the other 2 which go together in theme. I'd bet that since it's GOD we are talking to, it simply doesn't matter what has been stated semantically. He has authority to do what He wants.
 
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