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World War II history appreciation thread - you insensitive clod

felix said:
The "whole killing all the Jews thing" :D wasn't really common or accepted knowledge by the Allies in 1941
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no it was not public knowledge but the leaders of the allied forces almost certaintly knew that these camps existed before 41', wether or not they knew about the extent of what was happening at the camps is a different question but there were rumors floating around... also there were spy planes that had taken pictures of them and they knew it was something big and unrelated to war production... you cant really expect these leaders to just step up and say ooo yea we knew about this X amount of years ago and were unable or unwilling to stop it, it is obviouslly easier to just say we had no idea about... because even if they knew 110% for sure what was going on what were they suspose to say? ok well lets stop dragging our heels and pick up the pace boys...

AND something else to think about, say the leaders did know about the camps, knew what they were and knew what was going on and they knew hitler was so hell bent on destroing the jewish race he was willing to squander resources and man power on that instead of doubling down on the eastern front that they intentionally let the killings go on so that germany was weaker and less able to defend itself... im just saying that if you know your enemy is intentionally weaking his ability to put up a proper fight why would you want to stop him from doing that? its a lesser of two evils sorta thing... anyways thats just my theroy about all of it, it could have also just been that it all played out that way and we got lucky and they really didnt know anything BUT if they did, i would expect they would have made a choice somewhere along those lines...
 
pill_billy said:
no it was not public knowledge but the leaders of the allied forces almost certaintly knew that these camps existed before 41'
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I don't think that's true. Not about mass extermination camps anyway. Yes, they/we would definitely have known about camps like Dachau, which was in use well before the war started and was no secret, but I don't think there's any possible way (or even any motivation) to hush up the existence of places like Auschwitz. These places were found one at a time during the final year of the war, and if their existence had been known about before 1941... well, I'm not even gonna speculate because I think that's so unlikely.
 
The real extermination didn't really kick into gear until after Barbarossa started and the einsietzgroupen (sp?) began killing Jews in earnest Its true that the death camps were known about before the end lf the war (doubtful 1941 though) and we didn't do much bht I was decides that the best course of action to stop the activities in the camps was simply to win the war and thus end the German control of the camps.

The is a lot of controversy over why the IG Faben factories at Auschwitz was bombed and not the crematoria in 1945 when the purpose of them was pretty much known by those at the top anyway (ultra evidence etc). The excuse given is always the one above that the best way to help the Jews was to simply win the war....make of that what you will I suppose.
 
felix said:
but I don't think there's any possible way (or even any motivation) to hush up the existence of places like Auschwitz.
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well if only the top brass knows about it and everything is top secret there are ways to keep it under wraps for atleast a little bit...

as for motivation, in hindsight its easy to say that for the average soldier knowing what was happening in these camps would have only motivated them more... but its also easy to make the point that would have only distracted them from the over all mission and possibly even disheartened some...

again im not saying this defitnatly happened (but they def knew something was going on) but it stands to reason that if they if they knew the full extent and knew resources were being taken away from the front line then it would be in the allies best interest to let them "bleed" theriselves and bring about a quicker end to the war...

IMO if stalin knew about the development of the atom bomb and was disapointed that his ppl didnt tell him about it first then its not that far fetched that they and the other allied countires knew what was going on.... i know there apples and oranges but its pretty common place for cover ups and lies to be told during war and ofcourse history is written by the victor... soo im just saying it is something to think about, even if they didnt know what would they have done if they did?
 
pill_billy said:
IMO if stalin knew about the development of the atom bomb and was disapointed that his ppl didnt tell him about it first then its not that far fetched that they and the other allied countires knew what was going on.... i know there apples and oranges but its pretty common place for cover ups and lies to be told during war and of course history is written by the victor... soo im just saying it is something to think about, even if they didnt know what would they have done if they did?
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I wish I could remember where I heard/read that the Manhattan project was heavily infiltrated by the Soviets, so apparently uncle Joe was almost amused when Truman told him about the bomb. This is also why, it said, the Soviets managed to develop their own bomb so quickly. It's a bit sad because some sources suggest that Japan had been trying to surrender throughout the summer of 1945 but Truman wanted to hold off and use his new toy as a show of strength.

EDIT: Found one of the fellas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Koval
 
The shadow of WWII was still cast large when I was a boy - I was born a decade after it finished, but the echoes were loud - dereliction of people and property still.

My father was involved in it - his father in WWI - and I remember being terrified by the thought that it was nigh on inevitable that I too would be called upon to fight for . . .
 
My grandfather never talked much about it. He never even told my father much about it. He just said ''you did what you had to do''.

He was captured in Italy and sent to a German POW camp. When searching my family tree on Ancestry, I found his old POW card but can't remember which Stalag he was in. Apparently it was there that he got his nickname 'Poker' as he used to organise card games between the guards and the POWs. Whether or not that's true or just a little story he told my father, I don't know. I did hear it many times at his funeral though.

The fact that there was no conscription over here makes me that little bit more proud of him (not proud that he went off to kill, but proud of the selflessness).
 
Don Luigi said:
I wish I could remember where I heard/read that the Manhattan project was heavily infiltrated by the Soviets, so apparently uncle Joe was almost amused when Truman told him about the bomb. This is also why, it said, the Soviets managed to develop their own bomb so quickly. It's a bit sad because some sources suggest that Japan had been trying to surrender throughout the summer of 1945 but Truman wanted to hold off and use his new toy as a show of strength.

EDIT: Found one of the fellas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Koval
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it wasnt "heavily" infiltrated, there were two soviet spies who worked at los almos and if i remember correctly they were both executed... and yea fucking truman... its just something about his face that makes me dislike him, he just looks like that douchebag in school who would tell the teacher if you were cheating.... anyways yea the soviet spy ring played into them developing theirs so quickly, although they would have figured it out, i believe they had their first test two years before the US estimated they would be able to...

and yea japan was wanting to surrender but they didnt wana lose their way of goverment and a few ppl in trumans inner circle were suggesting just let them keep him as a figure head and that will be the end of the war... and ofcourse after the war they let em keep him anyways... but your right truman just wanted to show the world that the US was calling the shots, theres a reason there were 4 or 5 cities they could chose from to "field test" the bomb because all the other major cities were flattened... like i said in another post on here it was really the soviet union who forced japan to surrender and the japs just played along with saying the bomb was the straw that broke the camels back to appease the US in the hopes of avoiding a war crimes trial... which they did... also the reasoning that a million men would have died as result of the invasion of japan is BS and that number wasnt made up until ten years after the war and only done to "justify" what was done....

but it wasnt from some sources that they wanted to surrender it was from the diaries of japans leaders and top brass... they had lost the phillipines and had no real supply of oil or rubber, every major city had been terror bombed and burnt down, their navy had been crippled... they knew all hope was lost and the US knew it was only a matter of time but they just spent all this money, time and energy on this weapon that it would have been a "waste" to not use it... also i remember reading about how asians were looked down on so much at the time it was like well were not killing white civilians, e.g. germans, so its ok...

but hands down the thing i hate about truman the most is how he acted like he literally won the war... shit he took over after everything was in place and in full swing and just had to not fuck it up, yet he shows no humility at all...

check that... i was thinking of the rosenbergs, when i mentioned the executions
 
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pill_billy said:
well if only the top brass knows about it and everything is top secret there are ways to keep it under wraps for atleast a little bit...
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Nah... I think you're verging into loony conspiracy theory stuff with this idea. There's no way something as horrific as that could have been kept quiet for so long, all across the world.

englandgz74 said:
You looked that up :)
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Oh no I didn't!

Fishface said:
The shadow of WWII was still cast large when I was a boy - I was born a decade after it finished, but the echoes were loud - dereliction of people and property still.

My father was involved in it - his father in WWI - and I remember being terrified by the thought that it was nigh on inevitable that I too would be called upon to fight for . . .
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What did you think you would be called up for in... 1967 or so?

As a teenager I grew up thinking nuclear war was practically inevitable, and there wouldn't have been the time or any point in being called up. Just a fiery death.
 
felix said:
Nah... I think you're verging into loony conspiracy theory stuff with this idea. There's no way something as horrific as that could have been kept quiet for so long, all across the world.
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i wouldnt even say its a conspiracy... but to not not ask what if about a situation because the situation was so horrible, means you are automatically giving the benefit of the doubt to the ppl telling you what happened... if the development of the atom bomb was able to stay out of the knowledge of the public for as long as it did and that had thousands of people working on it, its not the far of a stretch to think that a group of 50 or so people could keep something like that under wraps.... im not trying to say they were happy it was going on or anything like that, but they would have something to gain by allowing it to continue which is defeating germany quicker.... anyways like i said it is mostly a what if and i just feel like its something to think about... i wouldnt say its in the same league as who "really" shot JFK or did we really go to the moon, now thats where you start to get out there with the ideas.....
 
Winston Churchill with his chiefs of staff in the garden of No. 10 Downing Street, on the day Germany surrendered to the Allies, 7 May 1945

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Original caption: 10 Downing Street garden, London, England 7th May 1945, Chiefs of Staff at Downing Street

Back Row, L-R; Major General Hollis, General Sir Hastings Ismay (1887-1965)
Front Row, L-R; Sir Charles Portal, Marshal of the RAF, Field Marshal Sir Alan Brooke, Prime Minister Winston Churchill, Admiral of the Fleet, Sir Andrew Cunningham

(Photo by Paul Popper/Popperfoto/Getty Images)
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As seen on: http://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn...on_churchill_with_his_chiefs_of_staff_in_the/
 
Very controversial. After all we are talking of thousands of bombs during 3 days with so many innocents lives taken away, despite of being Germans or not.
From what my father in law says, films about that are never close to what happened there.
 
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