Workshop Thread #7 - "Night Terrors" by Thou

[ForEverAfter]

I'm sorry for your situation, man. But nobody said our feedback was gospel. If you don't agree with me, and what I said about your story, that's fine. For the record, though, about the population at large: there's no point being an intellectual elitist. Calling the world dumb shits that aren't worth your time. There is no need to hate idiots. I think the point of writing is to reach as many people as you can with your message. Doesn't matter if they're highly intelligent and have a fabulous vocabulary. Steven King reaches more people than Albert Camus. The best writer is part King, part Camus. Steven King isn't the devil. I'd love to be King. Not for the money, or for the notoriety. I'd just like to have my books in that many people's homes. Regardless of whether or not they know a wide variety of eight syllable words. Intellectualism is just an elitist sub-class in the hierarchy of intelligence. So smart people can look down on the idiots and smirk, just like the rich look down on the poor. That's the irony with these intellectuals, constantly criticizing the system. They are part of it. Really, there's not a big difference between racism and IQism. You can dislike people because they're disabled, a midget, a woman, an Native American, or because they're stupid. People are born stupid. If you have superior genes, that's just fortunate. It's not an achievement. It seems to me that you expect to be a good writer instantly. Steven King spent his childhood writing fiction. I've read his auto-biography, "On Writing", which is an utterly fantastic book. Highly accessible and insightful. Just because he's popular doesn't mean he's got no talent. In fact, it indicates the opposite. I'm getting sick of reading literary works. For university I have to read Joyce and Woolf and Camus and Nietzsche and Dostoevsky. Given the choice, I rather read some science fiction. Or Chuck Palahniuk. Or Clive Barker. Some books are too intellectual; too high shelf; too pretentious. There's a reason why most people don't read Nietzsche. And it's not because he's too smart for them. There are only simple ideas, and many complicated ways to express them. No, the reason most average people don't read Dostoevsky, is because they'd rather read something entertaining. Something that doesn't require a degree to understand. And, honestly, so would I. There are works beyond my comprehension. With reference points I don't understand and words that aren't in my vocabulary. I consider myself a relatively intelligent person, but I couldn't be fucked learning the elitist language. I tend to write with simple words, that everyone can understand. Because I want all sorts of people to read my shit. It is much more impressive to be able to appeal to both smart and dumb, young and old. Look at Toy Story. The film is catered to multiple audiences. And Shakespeare, who existed on both ends of the spectrum. (Note: I do not believe a man named William Shakespeare wrote the plays he is credited for, nor do I like those plays.) He didn't neglect the common man. Nor did he neglect the intellectuals. Literature is for the people. Not for the writers. Art is for the world.

Don't hate the world, Thou.

As for your question, "What is good?" It is indeed, entirely subjective. My opinion is not gospel. Nor is Max Power's. The point of a workshop is to get a bunch of different opinions. I've stated my reasons as to why I don't think this particular story is "good". You're quite welcome to disagree with me. You have your own idea of what's "good". However, I will say, it's hard to judge your own work. I find, with my stories, that everybody is generally right. More often than not, there is something to be learnt from every opinion.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with Camus, or Hemingway. Neither of them used complex language.

Here's "The Outsider", by Albert Camus, the entire novella.

It's a perfect example of what Max said earlier,

Using flowery language and touching on esoteric topics doesn't make your work any more tailored for the 'intellectual' crowd than writing in simple prose about every day stories makes your work marketable to the 'layman'

Have a read.

 

[Thou]

I agree and was in a horrible place emotionally when I said that.

I woke up this morning wishing to be dumb, and I don't hate. It's on duality; I love everyone (have to, hate is death) on the intuitive level. That's my mind.

My physical self responds to them with distrust, fear, and horror. That might come out as hate, I'd like it not be, and thus I'm working on it.

A polite misanthrope. That's the case.

Anyway, everything you guys said, I dig. It will make me a better writer, I suppose. If I grow up and become one.

I'm quite anhedonic at the moment and this isn't helping the workshop. I should have revised the story and given it to you when I'd said I would. Instead a got a spark up my ass wrote it, revised it twice and carelessly let it loose into the world. But Blake once said:


"The fool who persists in his folly becomes wise." I am a fool, and a drunk, and a hopeless romantic, and certainly not wise.


FTR: I like reading intellectual crap, thus my pretentious language. This might explain my material. I'm an absurdist, so I know the outsider, the stranger, etc quite well. I think they're lovely reads and think all work should be that good. I thought I wanted to be a writer, but I'm not sure. I am a writer, because I'm writing to you now. I meant one out for monetary means.

Or fuck fiction all together and go about journalism. We need a journalism piece at some point in this workshop, methinks. Anyhow, I've started running off at the mouth again.

Thanks guys for helping me with my writing, It's very much appreciated.

Thou

 

[xxxyyy]

okay, i finally got out of the withdrawal funk long enough with the help of large doses of diazepam and caffeine to read something, and hopefully respond in a productive fashion.
seems like things got pretty heated in my absence. however, concerning your story thou, i agree with FEA on most counts. before i start my feedback i should mention that i have sweet fuck all in the way of a formal education, got kicked out of school with 16, and pretty much everything i know i taught myself. i'm saying this mainly because i never taught myself how to properly critique something, so anyway...
i also did not find the story particularly entertaining, and needlessly akward sentences and the weird structure were a large part of this. it's obvious that you know how to write, however shit like this even annoys me with someone like will self, who really does have a masterful grasp of the english language and an amazing vocabulary, however he often seems to use it just for the sake of using it, and while this works in some of his material, in other it is distracting and unnecessary. very few writers can get away with a writing style like that, and these are usually writers who already amassed immense amounts of experience and practice (cormac mccarthy comes to mind). there are very few exceptions i can think of (comte de lautremont's songs of maldoror would be one). it's not that i advocate writing in the simplest terms or anything, i just firmly believe that prose should serve the story and not vice versa.

 

[Thou]

My next piece, I assure you, will be devoid of dead language. The likes of which distate has become favorable towardes the cricism I get.

I'l write a dumb piece, palatable for all.

It will take a while, I'm sorry to say. For tomorrow I commit myself to an asylum.

It was this, or die. I respect my two living loving familial comrades too much to simply commit suicide. I'm going off for zazen.

Act without acting.

And to taper off the klonopin that does me no good, anymore.


On your status and proclamation about prose?

Prose is all. Everything else is bullshit. This is a fallacy I learned who knows when, I doubt currently, and after being incarcerated for a few months, will hopefully shake off like a pack of fleas. A 'surface nuisance.'

Thanks XXXX for reading my story. I owe you a favor in the longterm.

Thou

 

[thujone]

FUCK such an odious and anxious thread I echo what pk. has said about the nature of the workshop, and IMHO it's been going well so far.

Now, to business: the grammatical errors were indeed quite numerous, but I've been keen to overlook that and focus instead on what makes or detracts from my enjoyment of a story, as a reader. To be honest, I found this story to be the least engaging in the workshop thus far because the plot revolved forcefully around the protagonist but we, the readers, were given only scraps of details about her character; nowhere near enough to really give a shit about her. The concept for the plot was definitely cool and could have gone far if only the character had been developed well enough to have us imagine that Elle was not an inconsequential cardboard cutout but a real; living, breathing human whom you've been forced to reduce to succinct descriptions of.

 

[xxxyyy]

Thanks XXXX for reading my story. I owe you a favor in the longterm.

you don't owe me shit, mate. simple reciprocity, you read my story and i'm sorry i didn't read your other one, but as i said, i was really really fucked. severe, acute alcohol withdrawal is about as close to hell on earth as you can get drug-WD wise. PM me anytime, you seem to be going through a rough patch, and if you need someone to talk to, i'll always listen and give whatever help i can.

 

[Thou]

FUCK such an odious and anxious thread I echo what pk. has said about the nature of the workshop, and IMHO it's been going well so far.

Now, to business: the grammatical errors were indeed quite numerous, but I've been keen to overlook that and focus instead on what makes or detracts from my enjoyment of a story, as a reader. To be honest, I found this story to be the least engaging in the workshop thus far because the plot revolved forcefully around the protagonist but we, the readers, were given only scraps of details about her character; nowhere near enough to really give a shit about her. The concept for the plot was definitely cool and could have gone far if only the character had been developed well enough to have us imagine that Elle was not an inconsequential cardboard cutout but a real; living, breathing human whom you've been forced to reduce to succinct descriptions of.

It's a novella in progress.

My last failure was like what, 13 pages? People didn't dig it.

I tried to make this short and sweet, but I understand and agree with your critique. It was unfinished and given with little revision.

Trying to find balance in this paradigm we've so invoked. It's a slippery slope.

Again, thank you for reading it and realizing its potential as a novella which it would have been if times were different.

'They are a' changin'"

Some asshole said that once, but he we was right, for better or worse.

Thank you Thuj.... I can't wait to read more of your stuff. Your example has been equally as valuable to my art as 4EA. Max powers a dick though


you Max.


S.H. Bloore

 

[DamagedLemon]

I like the idea of the story, the theme surrounding it - but I did at some points find it difficult to read. However that might perhaps be due to was my preference in literature (I have very select taste and find a lot of things difficult to read - like Dostoyevsky, for instance. Much as I love Fitzgerald I too find him difficult to read sometimes).

I do think you could have developed the character more. I like how you drift from the present into her subconscious mind and what she was thinking about, but I kind of wish you could have stayed more rooted in the present as I felt myself getting lost/ confused about what you were trying to portray.