Will this combination of supplements do anything, or just make expensive urine?

[optimuswind]

I've been self medicating for social anxiety/general depression, and I'm also withdrawing from Benzo use/abuse (for the same thing, trying to self medicate), will any of this actually (chemically) be doing anything, or am I just pissing it away? There's a ton of stuff on all of these things online but nothing I've seen has any actual scientific background to the claims or *why* they would work, I'm guessing a few people here are pretty clued up with regard to psychopharmacology and might be able to finally tell me if these are worth the money? I also looked at "GABA" supplementation as I recall Benzos doing something to your GABA receptors, but I'm not sure if taking a GABA supplement might help the receptors or whatever recover from the Benzo usage, or hinder it, or nothing at all?

Edit: Regarding GABA, from the wikipedia page:

Synthesis

GABA does not penetrate the blood–brain barrier; it is synthesized in the brain. It is synthesized from glutamate using the enzyme L-glutamic acid decarboxylase and pyridoxal phosphate (which is the active form of vitamin B6) as a cofactor via a metabolic pathway called the GABA shunt. This process converts glutamate, the principal excitatory neurotransmitter, into the principal inhibitory neurotransmitter (GABA).[35][36]

So this means taking GABA pills like the one I linked is completely futile since it won't cross the BBB, and I'm getting it anyway from the vitamin B6? (The B-complex bottle says 25mg B6, which is 1,250% more than the daily recommended value apparently, and I take two of those per day, how much GABA would 50mg of that be synthesized compared to what these bottles are selling as GABA pills?)

L-Tyrosine - 1.5g-2.5g / day
5-HTP - 100-200mg / day
Suntheanine L-Theanine - 300mg / day
Vitamin B Complex w/Vit C - (Includes Vit B6 USP "(as pyridoxine HCI)" 25mg), the B6 needed to help the Tyronsine do something other than get pissed out right? I'll take 2 of these Vitamin B Complexes a day.

(I mostly also just take these because I have them left over from when I used to use them as antioxidants with MDMA and figure I might aswell use them up instead of throwing them out)
Chelated Magnesium - 200-400mg / day
Alpha-Lipoic Acid 300mg / day
Vitamin E 200iu / day
EGCg Green Tea Extract - 400mg / day

If this isn't an appropriate place could a mod move it please?
Thanks in advance.

 

[sekio]

vitamin b6 is needed for general healthy metabolism, it does not do anything to magically aid absorbtion/conversion of amino acids. the pathways that turn amino acids into neurotransmitters can only run so fast.

the L-tyr, 5htp are pretty mild and probably not worth your money. Theanine has been shown to be a mild relaxant and is probably more worthwhile.

The Mg, Vit-E, EGCG, ALA are probably doing more for you than the amino acids are.

GABA is not centrally active like benzodiazepines or alcohol, don't even bother.

 

[optimuswind]

Thanks for the info, I wonder where it was I read that B6 helps the tyrosine activate/absorb or something, pretty sure that's why I bought it.. any possible recommendations for supplements / etc that might help with regard to brain/CNS type stuff? It's only anecdotal, but after taking the L-Tyrosine/5-HTP for a few days before smoking some cannabis, I find I get a lot higher than usual, is there a possible chemical link or just some strong placebo effect?

 

[DJHENRU]

The weird thing is the most gaba flavored broccoli I ever had(HAD SHITLOADS OF BUGS IN IT. BUGS.) made me feel super well rested upon awakening, possibly relating to gaba converting to GHB.

Theanine seems to have different mixed reviews about how it affects sleep though, some say like sleep too heavily in the initial phases or something?

One final thing, I remember reading about "PEA Elevates mental alertness and mood by suppressing the inhibitory effects of GABA-B receptors;" Does this relate at all to ECGC? like would Gaba be having different activity in relation to the amount of L theanine or ECGC? because even then L theanine isn't a big aspect of green tea... the green tea version is a hypotensive.

 

[dingophone]

Valerian works well for relaxation in me, I use it as a mild anxiolytic or sleep aid from time to time. The magnesium should help with the depression. There is also some evidence that fairly large amounts of inositol (anywhere from 3-18g a day) can be beneficial as well.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Yeah taking GABA orally apparently doesn't yield much of anything

Good on the green tea extract (anti-oxidants) and chelated Mg (all kinds of studies on helping depression and anxiety, not to mention that so many are deficient in it)

Do you really need that much theanine though?

 

[optimuswind]

Do you really need that much theanine though?

I don't know, do I? Is that a lot? I can't even feel most of this stuff when I take it, not even a stomach upset if I take them all at once with/out food, so I just throw back a lot of this stuff and hope something sticks

 

[Solipsis]

You're welcome to move this over to either the HL forum (PD hosts only nootropics discussion but we still see these kinds of questions from PDers), or not of course.

I encourage the use of theanine especially if you have use for it, but neurotransmitter precursors are something I only believe in if you have a reason to think that your levels are significantly depleted or lower. Certain drug use could be a #1 cause of that. If not, I'd skip it. That would be the Tyrosine and 5-HTP.

ALA is something I have not read up on very much but it seemed to change something favorably when I took it for a short while, before I decided that I did not have the money to continue buying it.

Oral GABA use typically causes a transient but very noticeable effect in a lot of people with symptoms including parasthesia, flushing, a comfortable drowsiness and non-descript effects on breathing (deepening or apnea like, I forget), more or less dose-dependently. I could never decide if there was really a point to it.

Vitamin E is a fat-soluble vitamin which you can take too much of, as opposed to water soluble vitamins (at least by reasonable comparison), be careful!
You need 10 mg per day, you mention 200 iU which is 130 mg if I'm not mistaken, which is an overdose.

Furthermore, if you read up about it... beyond making sure you don't develop a deficiency (which you shouldn't with an okay diet) taking extra is not particularly healthy. So I say: take about 1/10 of what you are taking now or nothing at all.

I'm still learning about EGCGs... had the stuff myself but I seem to have misplaced it.

 

[optimuswind]

I encourage the use of theanine especially if you have use for it, but neurotransmitter precursors are something I only believe in if you have a reason to think that your levels are significantly depleted or lower. Certain drug use could be a #1 cause of that. If not, I'd skip it. That would be the Tyrosine and 5-HTP.

Pretty much, I have anxiety/depression problems and I like to self medicate sometimes with some M1 or, until now (withdrawing) Benzos, so anything to boost neurotransmitters/serotonin etc is something i'm interested in to offset any drain from the M1, and maybe even just give the neurotransmitter levels a boost much like an SSRI(?). To be honest, the whole serotonin/nora/dopa system confuses the hell out of me, some places describe it like you have "tanks" of serotonin and such in your brain and if you run low or are on fumes then bad shit happens, basically. But I think I've read (here actually) that it doesn't work that way at all, or at least the current understanding of how neurotransmitters was in debate(?)

 

[King Kong]

I would avoid the long term used of 5-htp:

The most significant side effects and adverse reactions may occur with long-term use (many months or longer). Administration of 5-HTP alone depletes catecholamines (dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine). When dopamine depletion is great enough, 5-HTP will no longer function. If other centrally acting monoamine-related disease processes involving catecholamines are present, administration of 5-HTP alone may deplete dopamine, norepinephrine and epinephrine thereby exacerbating these conditions.

Administering serotonin or dopamine amino acid precursors should never involve administration of only one amino acid. Improperly balanced amino acid precursors are associated with decreased efficacy, increased side effects, and depletion of the nondominant system.

To achieve optimal efficacy, minimal side effects, and prevent depletion of other amino acids and neurotransmitters, 5-HTP must be administered in proper balance with dopamine amino acid precursors along with proper levels of sulfur amino acids.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3415362/

(Also, before taking any supplements, have a good and healthy diet and do some sport daily)

 

[Longhauler]

Green tea, theanine and magnesium are the only mentioned supplements having some value imo. Don't bother with vit E: it is extremely rare to be deficient in this vitamin. Vitamin supplementation is almost useless if you have a healthy diet and exercise a bit. I only take SMALL amounts of various supplements every other day just to make sure I get everything I need (I take Omega 3, magnesium and vit D every day tho). Taking more vitamins than you need is useless and sometimes toxic (especially for vit A & D), you are just pissing them away.

Herbal supplements can be more useful than vitamins for increasing well-being... I strongly recommend Rhodiola, SJW, valerian, ginseng (panax and Siberian).. Well, that was my 2-cents :D

 

[optimuswind]

I would avoid the long term used of 5-htp

Does the L-Tyrosine not count as the other amino acid precursors to go along with the 5-HTP?

Precursor to neurotransmitters and hormones

In dopaminergic cells in the brain, tyrosine is converted to levodopa by the enzyme tyrosine hydroxylase (TH). TH is the rate-limiting enzyme involved in the synthesis of the neurotransmitter dopamine. Dopamine can then be converted into the catecholamines norepinephrine (noradrenaline) and epinephrine (adrenaline).

And how would anyone know what a proper balance is when we can't even accurately measure how much a single pill of either substance is increasing the transmitter levels by?

 

[Solipsis]

Does the L-Tyrosine not count as the other amino acid precursors to go along with the 5-HTP?

And how would anyone know what a proper balance is when we can't even accurately measure how much a single pill of either substance is increasing the transmitter levels by?

I *think* that the amount by which a neurotransmitter level can rise without just being attenuated immediately depends more on the nature of the depletion you caused by using drugs so you have to look at the kind of drug and the kind of action (release vs. reuptake inhibition, etc). Then what was meant by having to take precursors in a balanced manner possibly reflects that if there is more turnover in the anabolism of certain neurotransmitters, you better make sure that you replenish all involved nutrients, not in a unilateral way.

Since neurotransmitter systems are connected this makes sense. You'd have to just eat healthy and optionally supplement a ballpark dose of other essential amino acids, at least enough to offer your body the possibility to recover on all sides. The point was not that you have to do it stoichiometrically, but to take at least enough to cover the anabolic boost.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[optimuswind]

After taking an SNRI/benzos and thusly probably causing downregulation of all the receptors they act on, is there anything you can take to speed up their 'recovery'?

I found something called Phenibut which I'm trying, I took 350mg in the morning and 1g a few hours ago, I definitely feel 'uplifted' and generally a bit happy/alert, music sounds better etc, I can't say about any anxiolytic effect but it feels like it might be there, from what I've read you shouldn't take it more than a couple times a week because of tolerance build up, can't believe I haven't heard of this chemical before in my long quest for peace of mind. I had looked into 'nootropics' in the past but they felt a bit too "DIY", but at this point I'm willin to try anything. I also picked up some Choline CDP and Aniracetam to try.

Regarding Aniracetams absorption I've read you should take it with fish oil as it binds to the fat, would it be enough to take some of the powder and then just swallow a fish oil capsule, or do you need to mix it beforehand or something, anyone know? Not able to find a clear-cut answer anywhere about this.

This is what I have on hand now, are any combinations here harmful? I don't think so but doesn't hurt to check.

Chemical / Dose Size

5-HTP / 100mg capsules

L-Theanine / 150mg capsules

L-Tyrosine / 750mg capsules

Chelated Magnesium / 200mg capsules

GABA / 750mg capsules

Vitamin E / 200ui softgel capsules

B-Complex w/Vitamin C

EGCg / 400mg capsules

Alpha-Lipoic Acid / 300mg capsules

Omega 3 Fish Oil / 1000mg capsules, 330mg EPA & 220mg DHA

MSM Sulfur / 1000mg capsules

Phenibut powder / 0.25ml spoonfuls approx 350mg

Aniracetam powder / 0.25ml spoonfuls approx 350mg

Choline CDP Citicoline powder / 0.25ml spoonfuls approx 350mg

Methylone / 50-250mg capsules

 

[Solipsis]

Aniracetam in milk makes a slurry, I sometimes take it that way and at other times just with water which really does not dissolve. But I chug it anyway.
If you have capsules then milk is still an option, as it contains fat but milk is not all fat. Fish oil is not such a large quantity. It might help a bit, but not sure if it is ideal (neither is milk though, or are the globules actually pretty awesome for this purpose? I'd like to let others - ADDers - decide).

FYI, I have doubts that fish oil is really that healthy. I would like to see the research to back that up, especially regarding claims of mental health or improvement of mental faculties. Some kinds are even bad for the heart.

Choline seems to be connected to atherosclerosis which I didn't know until recently, but I would not take it again daily, instead only on days when I can really use the support.

I don't see any contraindicated compounds in your list although I really would not mix GABA with phenibut (definitely not worth finding out if it yields a phenibut overdose effect which is very unpleasant) or methylone with 5-HTP (preloading with 5-HTP could potentially cause side-effects with serotonergics, methylone is serotonergic although the dopaminergic action may be more pronounced); save the 5-HTP and Tyrosine for the comedown.

Not sure if these questions keep being at an 'advanced' level, but for your own convenience I'd like to remind you that HL hosts supplement discussion but PD hosts nootropic discussion and possible drug-supplement combinations and interactions.

 

[electrodevo]

I found something called Phenibut which I'm trying, I took 350mg in the morning and 1g a few hours ago, I definitely feel 'uplifted' and generally a bit happy/alert, music sounds better etc, I can't say about any anxiolytic effect but it feels like it might be there

Given that withdrawals / addiction issues with phenibut seem somewhat similar to the benzos, I'm not sure this is the best compound for someone going through a benzo withdrawal....

 

[optimuswind]

Aniracetam in milk makes a slurry, I sometimes take it that way and at other times just with water which really does not dissolve. But I chug it anyway.
If you have capsules then milk is still an option, as it contains fat but milk is not all fat. Fish oil is not such a large quantity. It might help a bit, but not sure if it is ideal (neither is milk though, or are the globules actually pretty awesome for this purpose? I'd like to let others - ADDers - decide).

FYI, I have doubts that fish oil is really that healthy. I would like to see the research to back that up, especially regarding claims of mental health or improvement of mental faculties. Some kinds are even bad for the heart.

Choline seems to be connected to atherosclerosis which I didn't know until recently, but I would not take it again daily, instead only on days when I can really use the support.

I don't see any contraindicated compounds in your list although I really would not mix GABA with phenibut (definitely not worth finding out if it yields a phenibut overdose effect which is very unpleasant) or methylone with 5-HTP (preloading with 5-HTP could potentially cause side-effects with serotonergics, methylone is serotonergic although the dopaminergic action may be more pronounced); save the 5-HTP and Tyrosine for the comedown.

Not sure if these questions keep being at an 'advanced' level, but for your own convenience I'd like to remind you that HL hosts supplement discussion but PD hosts nootropic discussion and possible drug-supplement combinations and interactions.

I just have the powder, I could buy caps for it but can't be bothered, I got a little spoon with my tub of phenibut and 2x of those is more or less 350mg, so it's easier to just use that, I only drink skimmed milk so I'm guessing that's even 'worse' for absorption due to less fat in the milk, is there really no easier way to take it? what do you mean here:

(neither is milk though, or are the globules actually pretty awesome for this purpose? I'd like to let others - ADDers - decide).

?

The methylone/5-HTP I'm aware of - I get minor serotonin syndrome like headache/sweating (or just a stronger M1 reaction??)if I take it around times I've had 5-HTP.

Also regarding the receptors, do you know if there's anything you can do to speed up their recovery except wait? Also what is HL and PD you mention?

Given that withdrawals / addiction issues with phenibut seem somewhat similar to the benzos, I'm not sure this is the best compound for someone going through a benzo withdrawal....

I noticed that also how it's similar to benzos, but I think my withdrawal is over now anyway, and I feel much more equipped now, personally, to be able to not abuse things and space the doses out so as to avoid another addiction / problem, if that makes sense.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Can you not take methylone? Preliminary studies seem to suggest it may be neurotoxic.

 

[optimuswind]

Can you not take methylone? Preliminary studies seem to suggest it may be neurotoxic.

I can but past experience has taught me to only use it sparingly, and I figure it was somewhat neurotoxic anyway since it's an analogue of MDMA(right??) hence all the antioxidants I've got which I make sure to take before/during/after the M1

 

[Solipsis]

I just have the powder, I could buy caps for it but can't be bothered, I got a little spoon with my tub of phenibut and 2x of those is more or less 350mg, so it's easier to just use that, I only drink skimmed milk so I'm guessing that's even 'worse' for absorption due to less fat in the milk, is there really no easier way to take it?

Hard to say how important it really is to take fatty foods with the aniracetam. If you happen to eat or drink something fatty/greasy on a regular basis (esp in the morning or whatever time you usually take aniracetam), take them together. Otherwise don't stress over it, or if you do - just get some olive oil and take a bit of that with it. Some would find that slightly gross - not that aniracetam with milk is good - so just decide for yourself.

what do you mean here:

(neither is milk though, or are the globules actually pretty awesome for this purpose? I'd like to let others - ADDers - decide).

?

In milk there are little 'balls' or balloons of fatty structures floating around - they are what makes milk white basically (among other things tho). So even though milk is only in part fatty, I was wondering if those balloons aren't quite ideal to dissolve something lipophilic like aniracetam seems to be. Still, probably not as ideal as high quantities of actual fats. But the balloons might help it get absorbed faster and thus better if they are better surfactants which help facilitate dissolution and emulsion like soap can (in a dirty soap solution there are also 'balloons' with fat).
It's a moot point though, if you only drink skimmed milk which apparently is about 0.5% fat tops. So never mind.

The methylone/5-HTP I'm aware of - I get minor serotonin syndrome like headache/sweating (or just a stronger M1 reaction??)if I take it around times I've had 5-HTP.

Whatever it is, it sounds swell. 8)
I would call that a symptom of 'poorly managed serotonin levels or efflux', not minor SS, but semantics right?

Also regarding the receptors, do you know if there's anything you can do to speed up their recovery except wait? Also what is HL and PD you mention?

Sleep enough! During sleep, the body has better ability to restore those levels and recover.
Eat enough, and well. 5-HTP is not the only thing the body needs to recover, it is a complex machine with a lot of parts that need to work well for the entirety to work well. Look after as many parts as you can by eating the fuel and building blocks for them.

I noticed that also how it's similar to benzos, but I think my withdrawal is over now anyway, and I feel much more equipped now, personally, to be able to not abuse things and space the doses out so as to avoid another addiction / problem, if that makes sense.

I have experience with both phenibut as well as benzo's including protracted withdrawal from benzo's and a withdrawal reaction from not cycling my phenibut use enough.

The point is that taking such drugs can postpone a new equilibrium setting in. When coming off benzo's - even though it is really hard - your GABA receptors need to learn a new balance. Not only does phenibut work on GABA receptors, it apparently works in an inbalanced way. I really don't think you don't want to go down that path, let alone become dependent again.

Also IMO phenibut is pointless as an acute solution because it takes a while to come on. I find that it eliminates social anxiety and a few other things, but it is not simply a substitute for other downers.
I won't sit here and pretend I haven't taken phenibut since I kicked benzo's, but just remember what role the stuff plays and that many attempts at trying to combat symptoms will have you end up suffering the symptoms that much longer.

Yes I know you feel like the withdrawal is over (but I don't know how long you used them), there can be a more subtle side to it - I have come to discover that GABAergics have changed how my CNS works much more chronically than I thought to be true earlier.
Just be careful.