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Will safe, enjoyable deliriants ever exist? Is it possible?

No one in this thread has mentioned volatile anesthetics like ether and isoflurane, which cause a delirious state when taken in sub-anesthetic doses. Their exact mechanism of action is unknown, but there is evidence of activation of GABA receptors and blockage of NMDA receptors. I've tried chloroform once and I'd definitely call it a deliriant, but I wouldn't do that again(just to save brain cells).
 
Right, but you pointed yourself that these are mostly very unhealthy so they don't fit in as "safe deliriants". Although they all are just called "solvents" most often (with no pointing out what they actually do), the difference between huffing diethyl ether and huffing glues with acetone and toluene are two different things.

As a side note... Between two World Wars abuse of diethyl ether (it wasn't only huffed but also straightly drunk) grew to such a society problem that it was placed next to heroin as a drug (the biggest problem was in Silesia as most of ether was coming from then Czechoslovakia). I don't know why it was so praised among some but if consumption of cheap alcohol really should be recognized now as a major problem (but no, why? it's better to focus on a very small group of heroinists in comparison...) and there are fans of those "drinks", I can't understand diethyl ether abuse in 1930s.
 
Zolpidem (Ambien) and related drugs have been considered relaxing and euphoric, and can produce mild deliriant effects. Even lorazepam (Ativan) can cause mild hallucinations akin to zolpidem in some individuals, including myself, and lorazepam is quite euphoric to me
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I personally never noticed hallucinations with all the ambien use I've done, but I probably didn't look for them and I almost always ended up drinking so yeah, not surprising. I did, however, notice hallucinations while on 3 mgs of Ativan and like 60+ mgs of Dexedrine, I was not sleep deprived and it only took one dose, but I'm sure the hallucinations wouldn't have been there if it weren't dark tbh. These were vivid hallucinations though, all kinds of objects looked like people until I was up close, it was very interesting and actually made me think of DPH. They were some funny looking people cause my mind created them out of the object's shape, one was a lady and her baby, another a midget mailman, etc. Most of the people were actually trashcans.
 
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Years ago I sometimes used zopiclone(a benzodiazepine agonist) to get high. When I had taken several tablets of the stuff, I often had auditory hallucinations, i.e. hearing people talking in another room when there actually was no one there.
 
As the state of delirium itself is more-or-less inseparable from cortical muscarinic cholinergic dysfunction, I highly doubt that there are any more 'pleasurable' alternatives to the horrid selection of the already-extant anticholinergic pharmacopoeia. Also, having trip-sat a couple moderate muscimol/ibotenate trips, I can't say that my (or the trippers') impression of the drug was that of a characteristic deliriant. Though I'm sure many will disagree, GABAergic dysfunction of memory retention/encoding and disordered thought processes don't constitute a true clinical state of delirium. Obviously, after a certain dose-response threshold is vaulted, any Amanita user's cognitive and sensory capacities will degrade considerably, but the same could be said for many (if not most) psychedelics and dissociatives, both of which effectively become 'deliriants' in XBOXHUEG doses.

3 mgs of Ativan and like 60+ mgs of Dexedrine
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They were some funny looking people cause my mind created them out of the object's shape, one was a lady and her baby, another a midget mailman, etc. Most of the people were actually trashcans.
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Far out, mang. I wish benzos and speed were nearly as entertaining for me...

And come to think of it, I remember hearing multiple reports of lorazepam in particular engendering all kinds of screwy shit. I found it the most subtly (but powerfully) inebriating and amnesic of the anxiolytic benzos I've tried, and hated it for that reason. 3mg, huh? I can't imagine how you could even recall the experience in such vivid detail, let alone retell it in a short narrative on a message board. But given my experience with the drug, I can vaguely imagine mistaking a lamp-post for a really tall, lanky human...or vice versa.
 
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To keep things simple one should use pharmacological distinctions rather than subjective experiential ones, so when you say deliriant it is best to use the strictest aCH antagonist definition- in the same sense that it becomes needlessly complex when people group KOR agonists in with NMDA-antagonists as dissociatives. That said, there are pleanty of deliriants that are considered absusable/euphoric. The most notable example is trihexyphenidyl, which according to some estimates is the number one drug of abuse in Iraq and has seen great popularity in Greece as well. Though one must qualify its popularity with the below:

The prevalence of use of trihexyphenidyl and medications with anxiolytic effects may stem in part from the population’s being under substantial stress in an environment where alcohol is both highly stigmatized and difficult to obtain.
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The requirements of a euphoric/abusable aCH antagonist are the same with most classes of drugs; short duration, lack of peripheral SEs etc.
 
The requirements of a euphoric/abusable aCH antagonist are the same with most classes of drugs; short duration, lack of peripheral SEs etc.
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There's a couple of peripheral effects of opioids considered side effects without which those drugs wouldn't be so abusable. E.g. slight drops in blood pressure contribute to generally depressing and sedating effect. Maybe raised pressure in bile duct, contraction of bladder constrictor, increased tension of smooth muscle, and spastic constipation are not considered to be of desired... But why anyway are natural opioids/semi-synthetic opioids with little changes more sought after than some opioids with strong potency but lack of a lot of effects of plain morphine?

All in all, I agree with this totally:

To keep things simple one should use pharmacological distinctions rather than subjective experiential ones, so when you say deliriant it is best to use the strictest aCH antagonist definition
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Simply put out and that's what real delirants are about. They cause real hallucinations in contrast to psychedelics, dissociatives, and other strange acting "hallucinogens".

And trihexyphenidyl does resemble very much 1st generation antihistamines (it's different in that, it's got a a cyclohexyl ring instead of some aromatic ring). The rest is very close to e.g. pheniramine and it falls notwithstanding into the propylamine class of antihistamines. It may be weaker but let's not forget anticholinergics are sedative in low doses so it's not surprising people seek something like that in places where alcohol abuse is stigmatized (on the other hand both alcohol and anticholinergics are not pleasant on their own, well alcohol is even more unpleasant when combined...).
 
Far out, mang. I wish benzos and speed were nearly as entertaining for me...
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I think it has less to do with the drug than it has to do with me in general. Night time is always really weird for me, bad night vision and my mind just fucks with what I see cause of it. Amp seems to always make me focus on the hallucinations more, night time on amp for me is kinda like being up a couple days on it, but this was the only time I had ever experienced anything quite like that (it wasn't really intentional to be on that much of anything lol).

I saw way more than I described, I just can't remember most of it well enough or at all, I'm pretty sure I saw tons of gang members along the street as well. I only remember certain things because I mentioned those things to someone else out loud and paid a lot of attention to them. I mean I'd constantly be trying to avoid these bushes or trashcans thinking they were people and kept my eye on them so I didn't run into someone or get jumped, but it was really just me and this other guy all alone at like 3 am or some shit. I can't remember them vividly, I just remember that they were vivid at the time, it's like a really vivid dream and then shit is blurry later. Maybe I've learned how to remember this stuff cause my memory is generally terrible, I really have no clue how I remember anything from that night, I mean I didn't have much of a benzo tolerance or anything.
 
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There's a couple of peripheral effects of opioids considered side effects without which those drugs wouldn't be so abusable.
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Well, obviously I was referring to negative side effects, any desirable peripheral effects are rarely labeled as a side effect.;) The peripheral SEs of aCH antagonists are especially nasty, unslakable thirst, tachycardia etc. etc. you all know the deal.
 
So, are we saying that deliriants that act upon the GABA pathways i.e. Amanita, zolpidem, etc., should not be considered "true" deliriants for the purposes of this discussion? The true hallucinations brought upon by these drugs are, from personal experience, definitely full-on realistic and can be somewhat comparable to aCh antagonists, if a little weaker and less toxic.

I think the GABA pathway for delirious states is much more promising if you`re looking for something with way less peripheral effects and more euphoric potential. Someone said earlier that true hallucinations were inseparable from the mechanism by which aCh antagonists act; this is clearly not the case.
 
rickolasnice said:
High dose MDMA (/MDA) can cause delirium that feels good..

Can't say it's too safe tho ;)
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Ugh.

Seconded on the MDA, in my experience. High dose MDA, for me, causes a very bothersome and disgusting delirium state in which I start inventing memories and convince myself that they actually happened, and my short term memory becomes absolutely shot, being unable to remember anything from minute to minute. It's entirely disturbing. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone.
 
Unfortunately, I myself have done some research into the synthesis of a more pleasing deliriant, and have come to the conclusion that without higher knowledge in chemistry, it is an unattainable goal. The physiological processes that makes delirium function are the same as those that cause the unpleasant physical symptoms.

I briefly came upon some information regarding tests done on a deliriant incapacitating agent that was researched by the government called BZ. However, this is an extremely illegal substance, and weapons grade, too strong for psychonauts.
<snip>
 
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there's no synth discussion aloud here

and a "safe" deliriant is not possible.. delirium is not suppose to be fun
 
Swerlz said:
there's no synth discussion aloud here

and a "safe" deliriant is not possible.. delirium is not suppose to be fun
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Finally! Delirium from any ach antagonist is a highly toxified state. It can never be enjoyable above certain doses. It all will cause a nasty bodily malfunction.
Heart attacks to heart failure is fairly common among this class of drug in overdosing.
 
2C-T-7 which is otherwise a wonderful chemical can work as a deliriant at certain (over)doses, varying from person to person in this respect... and of course with combinations making it so much more unpredictable even.

Those experiences appear to place a person out of themselves making them feel out of their minds or in some ways absent so that makes me think that deliriant effects are inherently unpleasant or at least I guess the disconnected feeling could be neutral or hard to remember or understand.
 
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