Will safe, enjoyable deliriants ever exist? Is it possible?

[phew]

Deliriants are closer to dissociatives than they are to psychedelics. We know that the dysphoria from them can be too intense even for the most experienced drug users. Erowid has even placed a disclaimer for Datura, because it's so terrifying and horrible (usually).

However, I feel that it should be possible to create a euphoric deliriant without the effects of dry mouth, urinary retention, constipation, dry eyes, excessive itching and tachycardia. I know that those side effects are par for the course regarding anticholinergics, but one thing I've learned from reading many posts here is that the class is not the effect. In another recent discussion:

Many drugs can be classified as "aryl" groups, however, this information is limiting because it is so generalized. Furthermore, not all arylcyclohexylamines are dissociatives let alone pharmacologically active.

When it comes to transitioning chemical structures into pharmacological activity, there are many many factors to address. Ketamine, for example is an arylcyclohexylamine that is substituted with a chlorine halogen group. Using pure ketamine as a reagent, it would be fairly easy to substitute the chlorine on the 2 position with another functional group (For example, a heavier and larger halogen such as Iodine) using what are called Friedel-Crafts RXN's. As to whether different substitutions would be active, I can not say. The situation is much more complex than that.

Actually, I do not believe that all amphetamines are active (not 100% sure, but I've heard of 3,4,5-methoxy substituted amphetamines being inactive). Not to mention that some, such as para-chloroamphetamine, are major neurotoxins. All I'm trying to say is not to associate certain chemical structures or "backbones" with certain pharmacological effects. Small changes, such as the alpha-methyl addition to phenylethylamine to create Alpha-MethylPHenEThylAMINE (notice the capitol letters spell out A-M-PH-ET-AMINE), cause serious effects on activity. Phenethylamine by itself is metabolized before it reaches the brain, but amphetamine is not fully metabolized for hours. Changes in metabolic activity as well as polarity, electronegativity, stereochemistry, geometry, etc. can all have effects on activity.

As you can see, whether or not drugs have an effect on you goes much deeper than nomenclature and individual functional groups... The many characteristics of molecules make these types of determinations tricky to say the least.

Basically, we should be able to find the perfect deliriant and it might not be an anticholinergic at all. No dry mouth, no tachycardia, no anything. It might even be a psychedelic deliriant that makes you see entities in real life as opposed to in a different world. I'm just speculating and coming up with my own ideas of what could be and what I'd like to be.


In this thread titled Euphoria from anticholinergics?
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=520775

The following posts are made, which I agree with from first hand experience:

according to wikipedia, there are a couple antihistamines that are anxiolytic, the rest not being anxiolytic merely sedating

IME, before i read on bluelight how many brain cells die when you do this, i tripped on diphenhydramine a couple times. it felt euphoric to me

dysphoria is far more common, and long term use of antihistamines iirc can make depression more likely, and i know restlessness/agitation is a side effect

Here is my take on it:

Euphoria from Diphenhydramine usually occurs in experienced users. It's an acquired taste. The euphoria comes close to weed. I know this is hard to believe (even moderators don't take Diphenhydramine seriously here), but someone who's dosed low mg for a while will eventually have deliriant euphoria.

But I'd rather call it a pronounced pleasantness instead of euphoria. =/

Diphenhydramine can produce euphoria and I believe that this euphoria would be stronger in the absence of the other negative side effects which can be annoying to aggravating. The reason people get accustomed to diphenhydramine and get euphoria is because the side effects subside over time through repeated dosing. This might be dangerous though, and for many people it's not worth it. If the side effects didn't exist in the first place, we'd be in business.

It makes music sound great. It makes ideas flow easier (memory loss goes away when accustomed to it). You feel great and the CEV are nice.

Also, diphenhydramine seems to cure anorgasmia. When on diphenhydramine, orgasms can be phenomenal.

Deliriants

mAChR antagonists

3-Quinuclidinyl benzilate • Atropine • Benactyzine • Benzatropine • Benzydamine • Biperiden • Brompheniramine • CAR-226,086 • CAR-301,060 • CAR-302,196 • CAR-302,282 • CAR-302,368 • CAR-302,537 • CAR-302,668 • Chlorpheniramine • Chloropyramine • Clemastine • CS-27349 • Cyclizine • Cyproheptadine • Dicyclomine (Dicycloverine) • Dimenhydrinate • Diphenhydramine • Ditran • Doxylamine • EA-3167 • EA-3443 • EA-3580 • EA-3834 • Elemicin • Flavoxate • Hydroxyzine • Hyoscyamine • Meclizine • Myristicin • N-Ethyl-3-piperidyl benzilate • N-Methyl-3-piperidyl benzilate • Pyrilamine • Orphenadrine • Oxybutynin • Pheniramine • Phenyltoloxamine • Procyclidine • Promethazine • Scopolamine (Hyoscine) • Tolterodine • Trihexyphenidyl • Tripelennamine • Triprolidine • WIN-2299

There are a LOT more than I thought!

Two anticholinergics with pleasurable properties: benzydramine and orphenadrine

Side effects

Benzydamine is well tolerated. Occasionally oral tissue numbness or stinging sensations may occur. Benzydamine may be abused recreationally.[4] In oral dosages of 500 mg to 3000 mg it is a deliriant and CNS stimulant (a cough drop has 3 mg dose), popular in Poland, Brazil and Romania. In Brazil it is very popular and widely used for recreational purposes, particularly among teenagers and as a club drug.[5] A person in a benzydamine trip may experience (because of large dopamine release) a feeling of well-being, euphoria and, in higher doses, hallucinations, paranoia, dry mouth and convulsions. The trip can last up to 8 hours, after that the user becomes tired and quiet, but sleeping is almost impossible. Unlike other NSAIDs, it does not inhibit cyclooxygenase or lipooxygenase, and is not ulcerogenic.[4]

Side effects

Orphenadrine has the side effects of the other common antihistamines in large part. Stimulation is somewhat more common than with other related antihistamines, and is especially common in the elderly. Common side effects include: dry mouth, dizziness, drowsiness, restlessness, insomnia, constipation, urine retention, orthostatic hypotension, and euphoria. The drowsiness and similar side effects tend to resolve within the first three to seven days of therapy. The euphoria is slight to moderate and subjectively different from that of both opioids and carisoprodol. Also, the somewhat cleaner side effect profile than cyclobenzaprine increases the therapeutic usefulness of the euphorigenic and anxiolytic effects.

Does the poster mean to say that both are useless and that wikipedia is lying about their better-than-usual effects?


But then I was thinking... what about the opposite of anticholinergics... cholinergics? I randomly clicked one and found this:

Vedaclidine (LY-297,802, NNC 11-1053) is a novel analgesic drug which acts as a mixed agonist-antagonist at muscarinic acetylcholine receptors, being a potent and selective agonist for the M1 and M4 subtypes, yet an antagonist at the M2, M3 and M5 subtypes.[1][2] It is orally active and an effective analgesic over 3x the potency of morphine, with side effects such as salivation and tremor only occurring at many times the effective analgesic dose.[3][4][5] Human trials showed little potential for development of dependence or abuse,[6] and research is continuing into possible clinical application in the treatment of neuropathic pain and cancer pain relief.[7]

As you can see, this is half cholinergic half anticholinergic. But it's interesting. Maybe we have some potential here?

When I went to look at anti-cholinergics and why I (and others) enjoy them, I could only pick out these factors for an interesting trip:

Unusual sensitivity to sudden sounds
Confusion
Disorientation
Agitation
Euphoria or dysphoria
Illogical thinking
Visual, auditory, or other sensory hallucinations
Warping or waving of surfaces and edges
Textured surfaces
"Dancing" lines; "spiders", insects; form constants
Lifelike objects indistinguishable from reality
Hallucinated presence of people not actually there
Wandering thoughts;

They're not all pleasant, but they add to what you want, which is a deliriant trip. Everything else (dried up mucus, dry mouth, urinary retention, tachycardia, dry throat) is bad.


So, is this class of drugs a dead end? Can we find deliriant-like drugs in other classes? Does anyone have any idea what the hell we can do? Is there something we can take while we use deliriants to undo the bad effects and keep the wanted effects?

 

[phew]

I'm sorry the above post is so large, but I needed to quote all of that information in order to save your time.

I'll be honest. I hate most of what I get from diphenhydramine. It has a few effects which I love however. It seems that diphenhydramine is like a great big pile of cow shit with a single tiny shroom in it. There are some effects that are amazing, the worst thing is that they're tied in to a shitty drug.

 

[indelibleface]

Zolpidem (Ambien) and related drugs have been considered relaxing and euphoric, and can produce mild deliriant effects. Even lorazepam (Ativan) can cause mild hallucinations akin to zolpidem in some individuals, including myself, and lorazepam is quite euphoric to me. Because of the effects of these drugs, I believe deliriant-like effects can be achieved in a euphoric manner. Obviously zolpidem and lorazepam are nowhere near as effective deliriants as, say, diphenhydramine or other straight anticholinergics. However, this does show that anticholinergic effects might not be the only possible mechanism to achieve delirium-like hallucinations.

 

[StaySedated]

finding "better" deliriants is a waste of time imo, as not being in control of yourself is part of the reason people don't like them.

but here's something to add to the topic, amanita muscaria(hallucinogenic mushroom unrelated to "shrooms") can cause deleriant like effects and is better than diphenhydramine or datura. it acts on GABA receptors as well as being an NMDA receptor antagonist. it also acts on the cholinergic system in some way, but i don't think its an anticholinergic. when its effects are classified, it's effects profile usually includes psychedelic, dissociative, depressant/intoxicant, and deliriant...

some people like this mushroom, some won't go near it. but this may be the closest thing to an "enjoyable" deliriant...

 

[StaySedated]

However, this does show that anticholinergic effects might not be the only possible mechanism to achieve delirium-like hallucinations.

true, nutmeg is often classified as a deliriant because it can cause delirium and confusion at high doses(although imo its more of an atypical psychedelic) and its effects are not caused by an anticholinergic action.

i enjoy nutmeg's effects(but not it's taste ) so maybe it could be considered an enjoyable delirium inducing drug. but like i said, its really more of a psychedelic in low to moderate doses and at the right dose it has given me interesting psychedelic oev's and cev's(geometric patterns, visual snow, ripples on surfaces, form constants, walls breathing); moderate euphoria and even mild empathogen effects; a strong cannabis like stoned feeling with laughter, increased liking of music, mind expansion, ego softening ; a mild alcohol like intoxication and mild sedation/relaxation; and a lucid dream like state similar(but different) to dxm. however, overly large doses/overdose often leads to a very dissociated, confused, and delirious state which often leads to people calling it a deliriant.

 

[atara]

Some GABAergic drugs have deliriant-esque qualities, specifically true hallucinations and a lack of memory recall. The big names are zolpidem and muscimol, and both are more fun than most muscarinic antagonists.

Nutmeg is reportedly nicer than most anticholinergics, but it's effects last a monstrously long time (2-3 days!).

Tricyclics are both antimuscarinic and anxiolytic, but they have no recreational potential and are far too toxic for someone to attempt using them recreationally.

 

[phew]

From what's been said here, the GABA receptors show promise in this regard.

I agree that Nutmeg has enjoyable effects (it's like good weed with a touch of delirium, just a touch) but the effects are far too long. If we had a shorter acting Nutmeg, we'd all be in love with it.

When you think about it, true delirium isn't enjoyable. It isn't even something you can remember. However, the feel of a high dose deliriant and some of those effects are desirable. I feel that dissociatives provide a great deal of the effects that deliriants can provide. There will be a dissociative that will have more deliriant properties than anything, I know it.


Trying to isolate why I like deliriants is difficult. They are the horror movie of hallucinogens. It's too bad the negative effects on the mind and body are real. If they weren't, we could explore them without fear.

A 2nd plateau dose of DXM could be a great deliriant if you added the atmosphere from a high dose of diphenhydramine to it. That's how I think of this. It's the atmosphere that's desirable. Salvia has a deliriant feel as well. If that lasted for an hour or more (pre-breakthrough. RIGHT BEFORE, when everything seems to have a humanoid feel) it would be an excellent deliriant.

 

[shoolameet]

So I happen to be rummaging around and came across this thread lol.
Anyways, my post that you quoted above was in response to this (not benzydramine and orphenadrine):

The anticholinergic action of diphenhydramine can produce a characteristic euphoria similar to that seen with orphenadrine, a very close chemical relative, as well as dicylomine (dicycloverine), trihexyphenidyl, scopolamine &c.

Which is why I said

that the Benadryl high is an acquired taste and enjoyed by very few.

 

[phew]

So I happen to be rummaging around and came across this thread lol.
Anyways, my post that you quoted above was in response to this (not benzydramine and orphenadrine):




Which is why I said

I'm sorry, it was ambiguous to me. I will edit that.

 

[shoolameet]

^Not a problem, the confusion was completely understandable to someone who wasn't the original poster.
Glad I could clarify for you though.

 

[adder]

Two anticholinergics with pleasurable properties: benzydramine and orphenadrine

Benzydamine (not "benzydramine") is in no way pleasurable. It rather makes you paranoid than delirious. You're actually totally aware of that hallucinations are caused by the drug. The problem is those hallucinations may be frightening quite often. It also causes some sort of euphoria but it's short-lived compared to drug's effects (3-4 hrs vs. one day). When this "euphoria" wears off, you're tired of the experience. Your heart is sky-rocketing and you still see those damned things. There is no way you can fall asleep without help of some sedating medication. And the day after or even the same day if you couldn't fall asleep, you find yourself stinking like hell, everything stinks and you feel so blue.

What deliriants are good if deliriants can be good at all? Smoking 200-250mg of Atropa Belladonna leaves is good to be added to opioids as it potentates nodding like hell. When you dose too much and sedative properties of any deliriant are gone and you start to be delirious, it starts to be totally unpleasant.

Yesterday I took a pseudoephedrine/triprolidine medicine for my runny nose. I'm chronically on methadone. Imagine that 2.5mg of that shit made me so high I totally nodded out in an armchair. And when I woke up I couldn't remember if I had switched off my computer for real or if it'd been just a dream. It turned out I'd done it for real and I don't know when... I knew this antihistamine crosses BBB and it's an anticholinergic but I thought it's a really weak one. Of course I didn't feel anything from 60mg of pseudoephedrine in such circumstances (methadone and triprolidine). I still can't believe it acted on me like that. First, I cursed it for not releasing my nose, then it made me slightly drowsy (like the leaflet says it may but as a side-effect), and then after 2 hrs from intake I was high. My nose was alright then but who gets a runny nose after a dose of any opioid that's sure to get you high?

And I've had a really hard time getting up this morning. Damned potentator I didn't even want... 2.5mg!

 

[(zonk)]

The keyword here is "deleriant" that should answer your question. I have VERY limited experience. Each time the trip I would say wasn't bad, it was interesting, but certainly not magical. I wasn't spun to the point like some people where they're talking to people that aren't there and waking up with scratches in some weird part of town lol. I was seeing very bizarre/interesting visuals(OEV/CEV). Although they all had horrible bodyloads. The one I took that anti-muscarinic was the best visually but had the worst bodyload. the cracks in the sealing would move around like living ropes and form fully fledged cartoons including fight seens and lasoos. I was seeing ghosts walking around and even riding horses altho they were black n white and transparent so it wasn't like i would think they were real, i was very in control. Altho the next day i was looking into the reflection of a TV(that was turned off)and saw someone behind me, i waved at them and stupidly realized that there was nothing except a wall(several inches)behind me so this was impossible.
Perhaps memantine or orphenadrine might be interesting but of course it has to be at the right dose. I'm sure if I had taken a bit more of them I may have ended up in a notsogood situation. They can be done safely but it's harder to find the right dose, i consider myself lucky in these instances.

 

[ClapOnCannabis]

finding "better" deliriants is a waste of time imo, as not being in control of yourself is part of the reason people don't like them.

but here's something to add to the topic, amanita muscaria(hallucinogenic mushroom unrelated to "shrooms") can cause deleriant like effects and is better than diphenhydramine or datura. it acts on GABA receptors as well as being an NMDA receptor antagonist. it also acts on the cholinergic system in some way, but i don't think its an anticholinergic. when its effects are classified, it's effects profile usually includes psychedelic, dissociative, depressant/intoxicant, and deliriant...

some people like this mushroom, some won't go near it. but this may be the closest thing to an "enjoyable" deliriant...

Thats exactly what I was thinking. I definitely enjoy them.

 

[adder]

Amanita muscaria is a poisonous mushroom (5% of overdoses are fatal). One must boil it in water for some time and then totally dry it. This causes more toxic ibotenic acid to be decarboxylated to muscimol. Active alkaloids in amanita muscaria are muscimol, ibotenic acid, and muscarine (altough levels of it in Amanita muscaria are minute).

Both muscimol and ibotenic acid act through mimicking glutamic acid and GABA so effects from ingestion of this mushroom come from GABA{A} agonism and glutamate receptors. Taking large quantities of these mushrooms may cause delirium similar to anticholinergic overdose (real hallucinations, nervousness etc.). Notwithstanding it's very dangerous to consume these mushrooms just as consuming Datura stramonium seeds or Atropa belladonna berries.

My experience with smoking Atropa belladonna leaves is a different thing. I always measured quantity of the drought using a 0.001g scale. 200mg hardly causes any delirious effects. Anticholinergics cause sedation in doses lower than those needed for delirious hallucinations.

EDIT: You look for some safe drug with deliriant-like effects? It's zolpidem already mentioned. 70-80mg is enough to cause serious hallucinations (I saw grass on my carpet). One is sedated at the same time so no shock happens and no frightening hallucinations happen. Also, 80mg is not an overdose. But tolerance to zolpidem develops fast if it's used daily. With lorazepam or lormetazepam I've never experienced anything but more vivid colors and characteristic euphoria (not experienced with any other benzodiazepine derivative I took).

 

[Astavats]

Amanita muscaria is a poisonous mushroom (5% of overdoses are fatal).

Sorry to derail the thread but is the fatality rate estimated from your end or did you grab it from somewhere? If it is from someone I'd really appreciate a link or title because I've read many times before fatality from A. muscaria is a very rare occurrence. Regarding A. muscaria and select friends (not A. phalloides) North American mycological association states; "In humans, there are no reliably documented cases of death from toxins in these mushrooms in the past 100 years, though there is one case where a camper froze to death while in the comatose state." (source)

 

[DJHENRU]

I repeat this but non deleriating doses of datura compounded with opiods(I know this isnt really add) would be pleasurable in a nodding off sense and had been never unenjoyable. I'm speaking of doses of 15 seeds maybe, boiled which where used for pain releif. Theyd go excelent. Even DPH+opiods gives me this weird dissociative 'neural circut' trip with them. Not really like Id do them again though im trying to be clean, and even with Opiate usage I wouldn't risk ending up briefly retarded by anticholinergic activity, Id just dose more.
the sudden sound trip thing tho, one of my favorite songstress http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Blechdom is a fan of the DPH, for music, and when catatonic on DPH music for me is very pleasurable.

 

[adder]

Sorry to derail the thread but is the fatality rate estimated from your end or did you grab it from somewhere? If it is from someone I'd really appreciate a link or title because I've read many times before fatality from A. muscaria is a very rare occurrence. Regarding A. muscaria and select friends (not A. phalloides) North American mycological association states; "In humans, there are no reliably documented cases of death from toxins in these mushrooms in the past 100 years, though there is one case where a camper froze to death while in the comatose state." (source)

I don't have any source for it at hand and even if I found that book on dangerous mushrooms, it's in Polish. %)

By "5% of overdoses are fatal" I didn't mean "each year 5 per 100 people who consumed this mushroom die". And 5% was given as upper border. It's a chance a person poisoned may die if treated not in time etc. It's not Amanita phalloides that is often consumed by mistake in my country, it's often mistaken for e.g. Macrolepiota procera.

Are we going to encourage consumption of Amanita muscaria now or what if there was supposedly no case of death caused by it? Well, there may start to be if deliriant fans will now find it safe. Ibotenic acid and muscimol are weak toxins yet they are toxins (muscimol is used as a poison for rats).

Anyway, if this discussion leans towards "Amanita muscaria is a great mushroom with an alkaloid causing daydreaming", I'll add that Amanita muscaria is on the other hand mistaken for Amanita pantherina... Amanita muscaria were consumed long time ago by some Siberian tribes in rituals so it's definitively possible to prepare it for consumption but it's not like "Wow! I found a fly agaric, I'll eat it right away", it's not Psilocybe semilanceata (which is also considered poisonous because it contains psylocybin and psylocin).

Well, I just realized with such way of thinking morphine is a poison too because injecting a whole pack of ampules is sure to cause an overdose in intolerant ones... It's the wrong way to look at it all.

 

[Astavats]

Thanks, I was curious if there was any updates I had been aware of. And I'm not trying to encourage or discourage A. muscaria use rather get the truth behind it. Everything is a poison at a certain dose.

 

[dread]

I think the toxicity of amanita m is often exaggerated.

 

[mimac]

Take a look at Otts mushroom chapter in pharmacotheon. PM me I can email you the scanned pdf of the section if you are interested.