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Wicca...

I used to practice Wicca years ago. Its basic themes still resonate with me, i/e acknowledgement of the power of nature, the acknowledgement of the personal divine, celebration of fertility and fecundity. On reflection, I don't really gel with the God/Goddess idea presented in Wicca...more of a monotheistic slant myself (ie all is one one is all and so forth). IMO the magick that is presented in the Wiccan literature can and should be performed free of most of its trappings like the insistence on ritual and its associated tools. You don't really need incense, coloured candles, a wand, a dagger, a multitude of crystals and pentagrams, nor do you really need to remember to invoke specific deities. As kid I got caught/bought into these trappings, which caused my disillusionment with it.

The magic(k) of focused positive thought and the need for respect and communication with nature is Wicca's most important message imo.
 
i like their theological concept. it manages to capture quite a lot (although at the inherent risk of defragmentation). especially their triple aspect of maiden/mother/crone and son/father/sage; the crone and sage aspects seem to add something to the personalistic divine which i only found expressed in hinduist mythology before; namely an expression of time (change) such as in the Kali/Shiva myth. the dualistic polarity should be seen as relative imo, while in their being relative, they are absolutes when relating to each other. i think it leaves room for a singularity, while relating to itself as Other through as these polar personalistic aspecs. much in the way of an heideggerian ereignis-relation between the singularity of Being and its existence as (polar) beings.
 
^ Um it isn't really that mystical if you wanna get technical about it.

But anyway..

"...or at least Witches"?

Wow.

Anyway... so are you Garderian, Dianic....etc? Please elaborate.
 
Jamshyd said:
^ Um it isn't really that mystical if you wanna get technical about it.
Click to expand...

its a theological concept. its mystique goes as far as one can discover it in the concept. im familiar with a few different types of representation of the divine; and i think this one does a good job at accomodating it without its vehicle necessarily ending up getting in the way of itself. it has room to move, it can accomodate for pain, death, rebirth, yadda yadda yadda. if i may say so, it brings up some very interesting movements between the ideas constituting the triple aspects. especially the crone-son relation, and what i take to be its transformational pole, sage-maiden. personally, when i look at it, i don't really see anything to be in the way of it being a true path to mysticism for someone. as a matter of fact, the crone-son movement is rarely expressed in religion, i only found something more or less akin to this expressed in the oldest of religions, hinduism.
im not considering the whole magick thing here, purely in terms of theological conception.
 
This concept of hereditary witches and covens that gets batted around in wicca circles intrigues me a little. I'm pretty sure that wiccas version of such things is not much more true than the notion that freemasonry has a lineage back into pre-history which is probably at least as true as the Pied Piper story.

Many pagans have probably seen hagiographies of Margaret Murray. The article I'll link to has a fair assessment of that stuff imo. Murray at least was probably sincere imo. Gerald Gardner I interpret as mostly fraud. If someone is finding Gardnerian spirituality meaningful, I mean no offense. Just like people have their take on Joseph Smith or Muktananda, I have a personal take on Gardner but don't doubt most every denomination has sincere good people.
Murray article >>> http://wicca.timerift.net/murray.shtml
 
As a whole, I think Wicca is well-meaning, and has a lot of merit. I take seriously any person who has transformed themselves into a better person in the course of following this faith.

That said, I see one major problem with Wicca. As Enki pointed out, too much has been made of the rather tenuous historical connections to the pre-Christian religions of the West. It's a noble effort to want to reconstruct these pagan traditions, because they doubtless offered a lot that the steamroller of Abrahamic monotheism doesn't. But pseudohistory does not help the cause. Gardner and his students would have been better served by admitting honestly that there are many gaps in the historical knowledge of these faiths' practice and worldview, and admitting that their fill-ins of these blanks were well-reasoned but nevertheless entirely speculative. A true prophet is humble and never deceptive.

I know this will make rachamim seethe, but if you want to see the speculative reconstruction of lost spiritual paths done right, check out Renewalist Judaism (not to be confused with the much more popular and well known Reconstructionist Judaism, which is materialist.) The Renewalists have done their history, theology, and world religions homework, and admit very openly that they have borrowed from other world traditions to fill in the profundities that the Hasidic mystics took to their graves in the Holocaust.

psycosynthesis, you make a good point: IMHO, Wicca is inherently very tool-oriented. Pagan belief systems came about at a time in our cultural evolution where we were just discovering and developing our ability to make and use tools from our environment. This was awe inspiring and empowering. Paganism is just a supernatural extrapolation of that same sense of awe and empowerment. In my experience, Wicca appeals to those who are very kinesthetic or doing-oriented. It's a religion you 'do', more than one you think or speak. If you ever run across the amateur Internet anthropology of religion scholar who goes by the handle Wyote, he'll explain this better than I could.
 
Yeah, I agree with MyDoorsAreOpen. There are a few different book companies and they are repackaging the Golden Dawn system of occultism in different clothing over and over again...One is for Shamans, one is for witches, one is for Wiccans, one for Druids, and so on and so forth....but none of them are authentic. Its just the same western occultism that was codified just a few centuries ago repackaged into 20 different skins, with little authentic teachings.


At least Wicca admits that its a new religion though, unlike some of these books which claim to go back to an even older traditional religion. I think that in its simplicity and openness that Wicca is a vessel from which many people can discover their spirituality. I dont see a lot of cohesion though. For example, I have seen Wiccans who associate with Gnostic Christians and Wiccans who practice as quasi Satanists. Wicca is all over the place.

I have a lot of Wiccan friends though, and most of them are cool.
 
interesting. im far from at home when it comes to occultism. i know of Crowley, a friend of mine got into him a while ago, but about the only actual first hand knowledge i have came from reading a novel of his (having nothing better to read on the loo at the time), given to me by said friend; 'moonchild' i believe. i thought it 'entertaining' :)
 
^Very interested.....I would love a to talk with you by PM on this.

So MDAO- You, Jam and Enki are like these fascinating encyclopedias of religion/Spirituality.
You humble me and often intimidate me:) Everytime I read your posts I am so intrigued but often feel out of place (which is why I lurk more than post in P&S) -
But I would like your opinion on REAL old paganism. (Not Wicca)
Do you feel it is all false, based on books which misrepresent the true history ??
I mean, alot of the histroy put in writing when Christianity was taking over was written by Christians- so the Pagan beliefs were demonized in a way- or changed over in order to convert pagans (holidays, saints etc.)
Do you all believe there is ever a way to fully realize what the Old religion was?
 
I have met a few individuals who claim that they have a lineage that goes all the way back to old Ireland. Considering some of the talents this girl demonstrated, I have no reason to doubt her.

However, I would be willing to believe that it has morphed over the years.

In Latin America they often had to hide the old religion in Catholic imagery. Mother Mary is the Goddess. The saints represent various spiritual beings. They blended it so they could practice in open.

Some of this also happened in the Irish Catholic churches, but they had to be low key about it or be charged with heresy.
 
ocean said:
Do you feel it is all false, based on books which misrepresent the true history ??
I mean, alot of the histroy put in writing when Christianity was taking over was written by Christians- so the Pagan beliefs were demonized in a way- or changed over in order to convert pagans (holidays, saints etc.)
Do you all believe there is ever a way to fully realize what the Old religion was?
Click to expand...

Authentic history, lineage, rituals & recitations, feel important to people. I think ultimately that stuff is an aesthetic consideration that is going to vary in importance with different people. To me trappings are like gift wrapping paper, a personal aesthetic consideration that does not have any substantial bearing on the character of the gift.

If the historical people whose spirituality we are interested in have no written history we are only guessing as to their beliefs or rituals. Even when there is a written record I'm not sure we ever really comprehend spiritual movements without having participated in them, especially when well separated from them by time and culture.

My view is that meaningful, potent spirituality only happens in the present. Trappings and lineages are only important to people's individual aesthetic considerations and mood.If somehow I had someone's spiritual journal from European pre-history its spiritual worth to me would be my excitement about it and what I would read into it rather than believing it a conduit to an active spiritual current. Things like lineage have a function of letting us get in the mood and focus on spiritual propositions as important.

But as I have a belief that all authentic spiritual currents are a single current that is eternal I do believe we can connect with ancient traditions and future traditions, it is just that I don't think most of the particulars are very important. As a result I don't think particulars of spiritual movements are important enough to be transmitted or received in a live spiritual current very often. And even if we got a glimpse of days of yore, I would not know how to authenticate it as historically true and am OK with that because revelation is not about historical or scientific truth imo.
 
azzazza !? said:
its a theological concept. its mystique goes as far as one can discover it in the concept. im familiar with a few different types of representation of the divine; and i think this one does a good job at accomodating it without its vehicle necessarily ending up getting in the way of itself. it has room to move, it can accomodate for pain, death, rebirth, yadda yadda yadda. if i may say so, it brings up some very interesting movements between the ideas constituting the triple aspects. especially the crone-son relation, and what i take to be its transformational pole, sage-maiden. personally, when i look at it, i don't really see anything to be in the way of it being a true path to mysticism for someone. as a matter of fact, the crone-son movement is rarely expressed in religion, i only found something more or less akin to this expressed in the oldest of religions, hinduism.
im not considering the whole magick thing here, purely in terms of theological conception.
Click to expand...

"Mystique" and "Mystic" are two different things.

The latter has a rather established use in the Academic study of Comparative Religion, even if the definition is not as concrete as, say, the definition of "Social Mobilty" (or any other well-defined academic jargon of your choice), it is still a well-known academic term.

A mystical system aims (usually esoterically) to cultivate a personal relationship between self and divine through subjective knowledge. While, like with every other religion, you will find mystics within wicca, it is in and of itself an exoteric religion with a set of rules like any other.

If you are talking about cut n' paste "wicca", then there is actually a very technical term for that: "Fluffbunnyism".

---

I won't even get into the whole lineage thing, it makes me cringe, no offense.
 
ocean said:
^Very interested.....I would love a to talk with you by PM on this.

So MDAO- You, Jam and Enki are like these fascinating encyclopedias of religion/Spirituality.
You humble me and often intimidate me:) Everytime I read your posts I am so intrigued but often feel out of place (which is why I lurk more than post in P&S) -
But I would like your opinion on REAL old paganism. (Not Wicca)
Do you feel it is all false, based on books which misrepresent the true history ??
I mean, alot of the histroy put in writing when Christianity was taking over was written by Christians- so the Pagan beliefs were demonized in a way- or changed over in order to convert pagans (holidays, saints etc.)
Do you all believe there is ever a way to fully realize what the Old religion was?
Click to expand...

You are too sweet as usual, Ocean :) <3.

I personally do not believe that "paganism" can be revived as a religion. To draw an analogy, what people today call a "pagan revival" is not so much a true revival, but rather an animated zombie.

That is, of course, assuming we even know what we're talking about when we say "paganism." Most people are referring to some nebulous celtic tradition that makes them feel nice because their great great great great great ancestors once practiced it and now they feel alienated and lonely in the disenchanted, postindustrial (and usually North American) world. It definitely empowers people in some way when they have "roots" (supposed ones, at least) to go back to.

That said, seeing that the majority of "pagan" traditions were orally-transmitted, you can imagine how distant whatever version we have today is from whatever Jane Celt Doe or John Saxon Smith practised 700 years ago.

Still, it is not impossible to poetically appreciate what little information we DO have. For example, the Roman gods (read: pagan :)) actually play a pretty important symbolic part in my life even though I do not worship them as deities.

That is my opinion, and I honestly do believe that a lot of modern-day "pagans" make fools out of themselves...
 
Enki said:
Authentic history, lineage, rituals & recitations, feel important to people. I think ultimately that stuff is an aesthetic consideration that is going to vary in importance with different people. To me trappings are like gift wrapping paper, a personal aesthetic consideration that does not have any substantial bearing on the character of the gift.

If the historical people whose spirituality we are interested in have no written history we are only guessing as to their beliefs or rituals. Even when there is a written record I'm not sure we ever really comprehend spiritual movements without having participated in them, especially when well separated from them by time and culture.

My view is that meaningful, potent spirituality only happens in the present. Trappings and lineages are only important to people's individual aesthetic considerations and mood.If somehow I had someone's spiritual journal from European pre-history its spiritual worth to me would be my excitement about it and what I would read into it rather than believing it a conduit to an active spiritual current. Things like lineage have a function of letting us get in the mood and focus on spiritual propositions as important.

But as I have a belief that all authentic spiritual currents are a single current that is eternal I do believe we can connect with ancient traditions and future traditions, it is just that I don't think most of the particulars are very important. As a result I don't think particulars of spiritual movements are important enough to be transmitted or received in a live spiritual current very often. And even if we got a glimpse of days of yore, I would not know how to authenticate it as historically true and am OK with that because revelation is not about historical or scientific truth imo.
Click to expand...


Well said.
 
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