Why you need to be careful naming "legal" highs

[swilow]

I have bought some amanita muscaria "dream pillows" a few months ago...interesting way to sell mushrooms I thought

 

[antheads]

wow you people are really into cutting your own throats..

this forum is obv meant for people who are into mantaining the status quo. the proffesionals who send things to forensic labratories where the information is shared with LE, the moderators that believe that people who deal illegal drugs should be shot,the people who condem attempts to provide alternatives as illegal before a legal precedent has been set, and the users, who due to certain individuals on this site accept the concept of drug prohibition and just ask questions about whats the best pill instead of actually fighting for alternatives Wake up, under the current laws everything is illegal.


i'll leave this forum to the endless threads of "WHAT IS THIS PILL?" AND "HOW DO I HIDE MY DRUGS?", the idea that individuals should self medicate stays bannished, people keep going to jail for being sad or wanting to feel good and the 'hr proffesionals' keep getting goverment funding..


yay!

 

[antheads]

>How many people know that a previously mentioned retail outlet was buying, >repackaging and selling "herbal" products from a certain Israeli company? The >customers certainly didn't know what they were taking, and neither, it seems did >the salespeople. That sort of hush hush cover deserves to be peeled wide open.

Can you back up your statement?

and as the moderator of drugs-forum pointed out, perhaps if you are into harm reduction you should be examining the secret addictive ingredient in coca cola or the thousands of adverse reactions of legal perscription medicince as well????

i

 

[Mr Blonde]

^ The secret addictive ingredient in Coca-Cola would be?

Not cocaine obviously, for one the bioavailability orally sucks and the cocaine is extracted from the leaf material back in New Jersey before they make the syrup. It's the only de-cocainizing plant in the USA and provides the cocaine that is used in dentistry there.

Adverse reactions to Rx medicines happen all the time; it's a risk that has to be taken if the medication is required. Besides, harm reduction isn't really meant for people who take meds as Rx'd by the doctor, it extends though to those who misuse drugs Rx'd to them.

 

[Gramsci]

FRANCHISE RAIDED BY DRUG SQUAD

I think the raid claim reffered to by the original poster is sincere. In my area it was a front page story about legal high shops being raided throughout australia under the prextext of DMT anf BZP mainly. though the stories angle was that the police confiscated a number of apparently legal substances to. the owner of the store was on the front cover, had a big photo and was interviewed.

since it's in the public domain I may as well mention that it was Nimbin happy high herbs, but a number of other locations were mentioned state-wide, including happy high herbs newtown. I hope I haven't broken any rules here, but hey, it was on the front page of the paper, which is called the northern star, and the cops are obviously all over it already. This was last monday or tuesday last week by the way. check the link. it's a shithouse newspaper.

 

[Gramsci]

damn, i can't post the link due to not having made 20 posts but if you google the bolded title above it should be the first hit.

 

[swilow]

wow you people are really into cutting your own throats..

this forum is obv meant for people who are into mantaining the status quo. the proffesionals who send things to forensic labratories where the information is shared with LE, the moderators that believe that people who deal illegal drugs should be shot,the people who condem attempts to provide alternatives as illegal before a legal precedent has been set, and the users, who due to certain individuals on this site accept the concept of drug prohibition and just ask questions about whats the best pill instead of actually fighting for alternatives Wake up, under the current laws everything is illegal.


i'll leave this forum to the endless threads of "WHAT IS THIS PILL?" AND "HOW DO I HIDE MY DRUGS?", the idea that individuals should self medicate stays bannished, people keep going to jail for being sad or wanting to feel good and the 'hr proffesionals' keep getting goverment funding..


yay!

Dude, you've got well carried away. I don't think anyone wants drug dealers shit; but if you operate a business and sell a psychoactive product, and refuse to give out any information on it yourself, then people have the right to discuss it. Its these shops that shoot themselves in the feet.

How would you go about fighting for drug legalisation? Simply using drugs makes you a criminal, so you can never admit that. Under current laws, its illegal to really do anything WITH drugs, except provide harm reduction advice (which basically says, yep people are going to use drugs because they are fun; heres how to do it more safely...). You might be mistaken about what HR is; its no prohibitionist at all; at least in BL's context- its about safety, and thats basically it. Selling products under dubious labels for some reasons may be okay, but anything you put into your body should be known at least. Thus, Blueight In effect, Bluelight is fighting against the status quo, because their aren't many places doing what BL does in the world- which is ensure the safety and health of drug users. The longer these things are shown to have potential for safe use, ala Bluelight, the sooner they will be decriminalised.

 

[rogan]

Drug squad raids herb franchise

* 19th August 2008

Nell Berry, franchise owner of Happy High Herbs in Nimbin, is unhappy about the police search.
The Northern Star

A NIMBIN business owner claims to have had more than $16,000 worth of stock taken from her shop when the Australian Crime Commission and police from the NSW Drug Squad raided the premises last Thursday.

The franchise owner of Happy High Herbs in Nimbin, Nell Berry, said about 12 police raided the shop looking for illegal substances and products.

Simultaneous raids were conducted on Happy High Herb outlets in Byron Bay and Uki, as well as Newtown and Bondi Junction in Sydney, and several other interstate locations.

Police told Ms Berry that the products were being taken away to be tested because of health and safety concerns, but the basis of the search warrant alleged the shop was involved in the supply of prohibited drugs.

"As far as I'm aware everything was 100 per cent legal," Ms Berry said.

She said that police were particularly interested in products such as 'cherrypop' and 'buzzz' that she described as 'legal party herbs'.

Also taken in the raid was kava, a relaxant derived from the roots of a pepper plant commonly used in the Pacific Islands.

Ms Berry said it was being outlawed by the Therapeutic Goods Administration from September 1, but was still legal to sell at the moment.

"It wasn't even on the search warrant, but they took it anyway," Ms Berry said.

The Northern Star believes that no charges have been laid as a result of any of the raids in NSW.

"I'm passionate about people getting access to safe, non-addictive alternatives. That's why I took over this shop," Ms Berry said. "The banning of herbs and the dominance of the pharmaceutical industry is the real crime."

She said that in the past decade, common herbs such as wormwood, comfrey, borage and lobelia had all been banned from sale for human consumption.

"Theses are herbs that have been used for thousands of years. This [raid] is like witch burning in the modern age," she said. "They create a smokescreen and fear around it. The TGA motto seems to be 'if it feels good, ban it'."

A spokesperson for the State Crime Command said that the seized products were undergoing forensic testing to determine if they contained drugs prohibited under the NSW Drug Misuse and Trafficking Act.

"The search warrants were executed as a result of a drug squad investigation into the production and distribution of products containing banned substances, such as benzyl piperazine and dimethyl tryptamine," the spokesperson said.

http://www.finda.com.au/story/2008/08/19/drug-squad-raids-herb-franchise/

Kinda sad cos now these shops don't actually sell anything that gets your high. Buzz/cherry pop were in no way comparable to pills/ice/coke but they did have a nice long lasting mild high. Not too fussed though, these days pills are cheaper than most of the products they were selling

 

[swilow]

^I think your meant to remove the business name...

 

[nabollocks]

I have visited one of these shops in the past, and nothing I could see would even vaguely resemble anything illegal.

The lady at the shop was very cautious about mixing different herbs, and even suggested that I should not try any of her caffeine based stimulants due to the fact that I am a nervous person.

That is harm reduction right there.

 

[Jakeperson]

Although most store workers there are happy to give advice on illegal substance they generally stay far away from telling you how or where you can get them.

And they usually are careful and tell you not to mix these things.

Since the government is probably watching this thread, I have a message for them.
Thanks to the rising price in alcohol and banning of things like piperazines, a lot more people are using Ecstasy because it's so much cheaper.
I'm always happy to have more people to ping with and it's all good fun.
But it's not pretty when you see 14 year old kids with massive pupils wandering the around.
When my kids start taking E at probably by then the age of 12, I'll have you to thank.


Also, Cherry Pop was not bad.
Not strong or E like but it did provide warmth with body rushes and could work well in combination with something else.
However, it caused me to vomit quite a bit but no one else I know got this so it may have just been a virus, or something in the mix didn't agree with my stomach. But I wasn't feeling 100% before taking it.

 

[specialrelativity]

See our quote unquote sponsor. You should drop maps, I already have.

 

[specialrelativity]

war on some drugs mentality, like the stupid sponsor of the banner ad. I gave them all the ones I wasn't interested in. The garbage, basically.

 

[phase_dancer]

wow you people are really into cutting your own throats..

this forum is obv meant for people who are into mantaining the status quo.

No, it's a harm reduction forum, which you seem to have forgotten. swilow's response to this statement said it all, and in fewer words than I could.

the proffesionals who send things to forensic labratories where the information is shared with LE

And just what "professionals" were you thinking of? In relation to the topic you allude to, 4 people directly involved in initiating the analysis were BLers, and one a chemical analyst. For me, the decision to get the wheels in motion was done purely on a personal level, no work-payment involvement whatsoever. This topic has been addressed previously, and you know well my position and views on what sparked the subsequent investigation. In reflection, I'd do it again without hesitation.

, the moderators that believe that people who deal illegal drugs should be shot, the people who condem attempts to provide alternatives as illegal before a legal precedent has been set, and the users, who due to certain individuals on this site accept the concept of drug prohibition and just ask questions about whats the best pill instead of actually fighting for alternatives Wake up, under the current laws everything is illegal.

I think I can speak for the moderators in saying your first statement is ridiculous and doesn't at all reflect the views of mods on this forum. I could be wrong, but I've never seen any such views indicated publicly on the board or privately via PM email etc.

I personally believe in reform, where drugs are regulated but available via pharmacists or similar outlets and the crimimal aspect of drugs is reserved only for serious (big money, etc) offences. You should know how I stand on this, as I've stated it often enough on and off this board.

I have no problems with the concept of suppliers of herbal or synthetic products. It's simply about labeling, and thereby enabling users who care about their health or possible legal ramifications, to make an informed decision.

I support full labeling on everything, from garden products, to food, to health supplements to drugs, so don't think I'm singling out such suppliers. I've previously written letters to companies and the FSANZ recommending we do away with the approved additive number system currently used in this country. I want to know before I buy what colourings preservatives etc, are in a product. I want to see sodium benzoate listed, not preservative 211. And while I, like many, have memorised some of these codes, new preservatives and other additives are constantly being introduced.

Still these industries at least usually still have to provide some true indication of what's in their products - coca cola perhaps being an exception. So, if you're a concerned consumer, in most cases you can always look the number up.

Which is more than I can say about some current suppliers of herbal and 'alternative' drugs. At present there seems to be an effort to completely mislead customers by listing ingredients which aren't present, and claiming it's an accurate description of contents. Anyone who can't see the wrong in that obviously doesn't care too much for people who do, but from a HR perspective, that sort of notion is totally unacceptable. So perhaps those who disagree on the importance of disclosure should limit themselves to websites which operate with a viel of secrecy, or who encourage or promote the unethical, potentially dangerous exploitation of the profit maker's customers.

Can you back up your statement?

I personally spoke with the shop attendant in Brisbane. Without me initially mentioning anything to do with cathinones or Israel or Neos, he said "we had some great caps around xmas...the stuff came from Israel....it really worked and was very popular..." From his description of the effects, there was no doubt in my mind what these substances most likely were. Now you can believe what you want. My two non-bluelighters friends who were also present will not be asked to back up my comments here.

and as the moderator of drugs-forum pointed out, perhaps if you are into harm reduction you should be examining the secret addictive ingredient in coca cola...

^ The secret addictive ingredient in Coca-Cola would be?

Merchandise 7X

It's has long been rumoured to be a coca derived flavouring, but without the cocaine of course. This notion was given some credence around 3 years ago in a story that appeared on the BL front page;
Does Coke Make It Real?

In January 2005, Nils Ericsson, president of the National Commission for Life and Development Without Drugs (DEVIDA), issued a 10-point statement intended to clarify the country’s position on the commercialization and industrialization of the coca leaf—a contentious issue in a country where more than a million farmers make their living off the plant. In point No. 5, Ericsson wrote: “Coca-Cola, the globally recognized soft drink manufacturer, buys 115 tonnes of coca leaf from Peru and 105 tonnes from Bolivia per year, with which it produces, without alkaloids, 500 million bottles of soda per day.”

I also reasd somewhere that coca cola attempted to produce the brown drink without the coca flavouring. That was supposidly in the seventies, when they lost a massive market share to Pepsi.

While the above claims don't prove coca extract is used, the fact that a particular company happens to make the mysterious ingredient adds a bit of weight


From Wiki:

To this day, Coca-Cola uses as an ingredient a coca leaf extract prepared by a Stepan Company plant in Maywood, New Jersey, using a process monitored by the Drug Enforcement Administration.[2][3] Because cocaine is naturally present in coca leaves, today's Coca-Cola uses "spent", or treated, coca leaves, those that have been through a cocaine extraction process, to flavor the beverage. Some contend that this process cannot extract all of the cocaine alkaloids at a molecular level, and so the drink still contains trace amounts of the stimulant.[4][5] The Coca-Cola Company currently refuses to comment on the continued presence of coca leaf in Coca-Cola.[6] [7]

Click on the link above and you'll see Stepan Company also have a plant in Brazil. Coincidence? Quite possibly, but as this production facility produces sulphates and sulponates, it's likely all required chems for initial processing of coca would be part of it's standard inventory.

and as the moderator of drugs-forum pointed out, perhaps if you are into harm reduction you should be examining......the thousands of adverse reactions of legal perscription medicince as well????

What can I say? I'd like to be able to spend more time for nothing exposing such companies, but I'm already involved in HR and have been for nearly 10 years, with much of that time given for nothing. In fact, many of these adverse reactions you speak of are documented or at least are as they emerge. However, if you know of some available funding for doing independent research in this area, let me know and I'll consider another career change.

antheads, your present comments, like many of those in your past posts, indicate you have a serious problem with providing fundamental HR information. You seem to think a better world would be one where hospital admissions increased, long term illness resulted, or death by OD became more common, just so long as formula X isn't revealed. Well buddy, I work on the front line, dealing with adverse reactions to drugs, so from my perspective knowing what's been taken is paramount.


It is sad to hear shops are being raided, but whether or not things are discussed here and elsewhere, with our present laws, these things are going to happen regardless. How often are HHH products picked up by cops during drug raids or searches? IMO it wouldn't take long for some drug department to inquire further into what's in these products, particularly as these are being sold at a retail level. We seem to forget the vast resources and money thrown at investigating drug related crime. Once upon a time maybe one or two officers would look at this site occasionally. Today it's more likely people are assigned specifically to wade through internet chat rooms and forums looking for clues on changing trends. I know of other departments that have used and quoted from this site on many occasions. I've also been informed that customs and related departments have little to no idea what drugs are coming in apart from the common coke, H, meth and E related stuff. So it makes perfect sense that these departments would search for any anything that might get them up to speed.

The future will get worse IMO, and as swillow mentioned, HR related info is about all we are really permitted to disseminate or discuss today. What also needs to be emphasised is that without HR related discussion, authorities and statisticians would be largely in the dark, and emergency personnel equally so.

Up until recently, this monitoring of BL has had fairly benign outcomes for Bluelighters, but at some point in all this it must be seen that there's a fine line between authorities accepting such discussions but not increasing consequential outcomes, and abusing this resource, which would eventually see it move underground. What I'm saying is, if forums like BL were to disappear or become secretive, authorities would be largely ignorant of any local new trend, but then again, from a HR perspective, so would those users most in need. Those who wouldn't hear of, or be accepted by these secretive forums. BL is a resource to most who come here, the value of which may be only really fully appreciated by authorities if it were to vanish into the clandestine sea of web whispers.

The lady at the shop was very cautious about mixing different herbs, and even suggested that I should not try any of her caffeine based stimulants due to the fact that I am a nervous person.

That is harm reduction right there.

That's a very responsible approach, and may now be standard sales practice with this company. But it's not always been the case. Our HR group has seen a potentially dangerous incident with someone who had previously had an allergic response to caffeine. The person was sold the product with no warnings and wasn't aware it contained a high level of caffeine, and she suffered a rather concerning reaction. Interestingly, her said reason for taking the HHH product over an illicit drug was she thought it would be the safer option. Another reason why good labeling and conscientious salespeople are a must.

 

[Mr Blonde]

Excellent post, PD!

ETA: I have no idea why anthead thinks moderators believe drug dealers should be shot, but this is not the case; perhaps you are referring to why we don't allow sourcing? I would think that is fairly obvious...

 

[antheads]

antheads, your present comments, like many of those in your past posts, indicate you have a serious problem with providing fundamental HR information. You seem to think a better world would be one where hospital admissions increased, long term illness resulted, or death by OD became more common, just so long as formula X isn't revealed.

There's nothing like people grabbing hold of labels and telling you what they mean as well as using emotional manipulation to make their point. I actually agree that products should be labeled correctly but disagree with you that labeling is the essential component of HR, esp with research chemicals where the information is next to useless and the fact that anything that is an alternative to illicits is illegal in australia.

Your point is that if a product is not labeled, then who knows whats in it and people could die. My point is the suppliers of 'legals' unlike criminals know that a product must be as safe as possiple for people to send that western union money order again! People in hospital aren't a good profit market so therefore thats a from of harm reduction right there!

The HR aspects of the ndoves was that they they provided a predicatable experience, you knew what you were getting every time, as opposed to street pills, the police could not/would not charge you for them as they didin't come up on their drug test, you did not have to engage with the criminal underworld to get the products

Tell me since you guys identified the neodves has the overdoses or adverse reactions decreased ? No! If someone came into the hospital suffering an od of ndoves (never happened as far as i know) Or an allergic reaction (has happened a couple of times) would it make much difference if the patient said i took a capsule with khat extract or i took a capsule with ethcathinone? it dosn't seem likely.

You seem to ignroe the fact that if they were labeled there is no way that these products could have been sold, providing an alternative to street drugs. Perhaps thats what you would prefer. By continually justifying Harm Reduction by over emphasizing the 'harm' done by empathogens and ignoring the harm done by prohibiton you are justifying the goverments line that say mdma is 'harmfull' and should be illegal as opposed to something a lot more harmfull like effexor which is 'legal' and does no harm.


btw i was wrong about the moderator posting about people being shot it was some other in the cairns thread i apologize.

Well buddy, I work on the front line, dealing with adverse reactions to drugs, so from my perspective knowing what's been taken is paramount.

Well buddy, i've worked in the front line of getting people off addictive drugs as well as seeing the damage done to peoples lives by going to jail for self medicating ,so from my perspective giving the user access to information about effects, usage, addiction pontential is a lot more important than labelling the ingredients, especially by doing that LE is given a free present. Ngnics should have provided this information, which to the discredit they didin't

 

[lil angel15]

Fantastic post PD!:D

 

[Mr Blonde]

Well buddy, i've worked in the front line of getting people off addictive drugs as well as seeing the damage done to peoples lives by going to jail for self medicating ,so from my perspective giving the user access to information about effects, usage, addiction pontential is a lot more important than labelling the ingredients, especially by doing that LE is given a free present. Ngnics should have provided this information, which to the discredit they didin't

I'm not sure what you're point is with this one; PD is saying, I believe, that providing info on effects, usage and addiction is what HR is about as well as knowing exactly what it is in the first place. How can we give the info without knowing what it is we're dealing with?

you are justifying the goverments line that say mdma is 'harmfull' and should be illegal as opposed to something a lot more harmfull like effexor which is 'legal' and does no harm.

MDMA can be harmful. It can possibly cause neurotoxicity, overheating, dehydration and when combined with an MAOI medication could kill you. That's why HR exists; to help users stay safe while using.

And how is Effexor more harmful then MDMA? Effexor is an SNRI, yes it has side effects but none that are directly deadly unless in combination with something else or if pre-existing conditions are present.

It sounds to me like you are pushing the 'pharmaceutical companies are evil' line here, which is something I don't really buy a lot of in the first place.

Your point is that if a product is not labeled, then who knows whats in it and people could die. My point is the suppliers of 'legals' unlike criminals know that a product must be as safe as possiple for people to send that western union money order again! People in hospital aren't a good profit market so therefore thats a from of harm reduction right there!

Not necessarily. Consider the case of 2C-t-2 or 2C-t-7; they are potentially dangerous MAOIs yet few vendors warn their customers about this. Snorting these RCs could kill you, hence the need for information about these drugs to be disseminated amongst users. And I would say that most dealers and drug users do indeed have an interest in keeping their consumers alive as well, though since it's the black market there are going to be the occasional dodgy people who screw it up, and the potential failures to pass information about purity and/or adulterants along. Exactly what you said there could be applied vice versa; I've met some dealers who give more HR information then some online drug suppliers.

esp with research chemicals where the information is next to useless and the fact that anything that is an alternative to illicits is illegal in australia.

It really does depend on what RC; for some of them known dangers have been established (I refer back to the 2C-t-x's), whereas others are close enough to more researched counter-parts that some assumptions could be made about safety. I do agree though that in some cases knowing what a chemical is may not necessarily be useful. However, potential users still have a right to know what it is.

ETA: 4000th post, and I made it a good one as well.

 

[antheads]

I'm not sure what you're point is with this one; PD is saying, I believe, that providing info on effects, usage and addiction is what HR is about as well as knowing exactly what it is in the first place. How can we give the info without knowing what it is we're dealing with?

Not necessarily. Consider the case of 2C-t-2 or 2C-t-7; they are potentially dangerous MAOIs yet few vendors warn their customers about this. Snorting these RCs could kill you, hence the need for information about these drugs to be disseminated amongst users.

Exactly my point, the product is labeled, the actual ingredient name is useless by itself to a user, what is usefull is the usage and contradiction details. While on principle users should know exactly what they are ingesting, this principle must be taken into consideration in the wider context of what LE will do with this information as well as wether the rest of profit run business honestly label their products (and as pd pointed out they don't)
If people get on their moral high horse and condem 'legal' highs for not labeling their products as opposed to listing usage, addiction and contradiction details then they are advocating the total elimination of alternatives to street drugs as well as aiding LE to send people to jail.

 

[swilow]

If people get on their moral high horse and condem 'legal' highs for not labeling their products as opposed to listing usage, addiction and contradiction details then they are advocating the total elimination of alternatives to street drugs as well as aiding LE to send people to jail.

What? Its because these drugs are illegal that they are not labelled properly. Sorry, but labelling DMT as a mediattion aid is actually deceptive. Its not an aid for meditating whatsoever.

The alternative to street drugs is so simple. Australia abyndantly produces DMT in various acacia species. Psilocybe mushrooms grow throughout the country. We have native ibogain containing trees. Cactii can grow here well. Growing your own drugs is the safest alternative, rather then expecting a business to have your safety as a dominant factor.

What do you mean the ingredient name is useess tot eh user? Its exactly the opposite really....

Actuallt I re-read you post; I have no idea what your on about sorry.