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Why SO FEW recovery stories? Stay AWAY from MDMA!

Its probably not helpful nor correct for people to consider these adverse effects "brain damage". I totally understand that being in a state like for a year leads you to think that it is "damage" but I think things like DR/DP, HPPD, depression/anxiety are not due to injury to brain cells. However what I don't get are the people in this thread who are telling people things like "If you've suffered irreversible brain damage from abusing a drug it's sad but at some point you need to move on and live your life".

Ruminating about "irreversible brain damage" is exactly the kind of thing that will delay recovery immensely.

I can't stress enough that the adverse effects of various drugs, from psychedelics to cannabis to substituted amphetamines (all known to cause DR/DP/depression/anxiety/HPPD) probably have nothing to do with degeneration of brain cells, but rather shifts in communication between the neurons that take time and encouragement to reset. Most HPPD for example takes a few years to improve significantly, but some medications can lead to rapid remission.
 
I have to admit these stories do not make any sense to me either - if there was such a problem surrounding the drug then it would be have been highlighted by now. I am not saying it is safe or it is without it's dangers either but I do feel that this section blows the side effects and what some people would call a come down out of proportion.

I know I often get hated on for saying that - I'm not saying that every person that has these long term problems is lying or incorrect either. Some of these posts are based on one or a couple of pills in a session which doesn't make sense.

Yeah totally agree guys.

TBH I am of the opinion that a large percent of those who believe they have long term effects etc are simply self doctoring for whatever reason. Looking for something to blame for whatever is going on in there lives.

Sadly for most, this means failing to focus on the real problem.

I really think that schools need to start teaching kids how to figure out what is valuable information on the net and what is not. Far far to many seem to accept what they read without questioning.
 
I had perfect eye sight before MDMA
i took what is to be considered an average amount of MDMA over the course of a night
now I struggle to perceive movement
my eyes are in a lot of pain
visual snow, afterimages, ghosting images, starbursts.
But of course how could it be caused by MDMA, I'm obviously making this all up or it's probably something else in my life, and I'm blaming it all on the perfect drug MDMA.
 
I had perfect eye sight before MDMA
i took what is to be considered an average amount of MDMA over the course of a night
now I struggle to perceive movement
my eyes are in a lot of pain
visual snow, afterimages, ghosting images, starbursts.
But of course how could it be caused by MDMA, I'm obviously making this all up or it's probably something else in my life, and I'm blaming it all on the perfect drug MDMA.

Nobody has suggested any such thing.

If anyone feels they have a problem then they need to visit the local GP. Its also important to be 100% honest with them when answering questions.

I suspect the worst possible thing anyone could do would be to become obsessed with there real or perceived problems.

Leave the doctoring to the doctors and do your part by getting the brain focussed on something else that can have a positive affect on your life.
 
Im pretty sure the whole reason people are trying to search stuff is that a lot of them have seen a doctor but the doctor is not able to explain what is wrong or why and says go see a psychologist who isn't able to find out either.

I really don't like the assumptions that people make about pre existing mental health issues or problems in life because it is indeed very possible (based on all the reports on here and my experience) for a small portion to get adverse effects without having had mental health problems before.

Similarly, I'm sure there are people who indeed have mental health problems and still use MDMA without having an LTC.
 
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TBH I am of the opinion that a large percent of those who believe they have long term effects etc are simply self doctoring for whatever reason. Looking for something to blame for whatever is going on in there lives.
Sadly for most, this means failing to focus on the real problem.

There is a lot of this type of stuff on bluelight coming from the people who have never had adverse effects of a psychedelic or substituted amphetamine. Take for example what one person said - "Some people just cannot deal with the "my life is really crap" sledgehammer to the psyche that happens during the post-MDMA introspection. Instead of rising to the challenge and demanding change from themselves, they resign themselves to defeat."

There is also a lot of "permanent brain damage" stuff coming from the adverse effects sufferers themselves.

But surprise surprise, somewhere out there exists a middleground...
 
I have to admit these stories do not make any sense to me either - if there was such a problem surrounding the drug then it would be have been highlighted by now. I am not saying it is safe or it is without it's dangers either but I do feel that this section blows the side effects and what some people would call a come down out of proportion.

I know I often get hated on for saying that - I'm not saying that every person that has these long term problems is lying or incorrect either. Some of these posts are based on one or a couple of pills in a session which doesn't make sense.

I think the issue is that adverse effects like HPPD or depersonalization from psychedelics/substituted amphetamines/cannabis are so rare that you tend not to hear about them within your circle of friends - thus you tend to only hear about these problems online, and that immediately sets off people's BS detectors. Its really just that the internet gives you access to the minority that you wouldn't really hear from otherwise.

When problems like SJS and TENS from anti-epileptics are highlighted, even though they are 1 in 3000, its pretty clear cut that the drug caused the adverse reaction - the situation with residual effects after a psychoactive drug that don't involve someone's skin peeling off over 100% of their body is less clear cut ;) There is a lot of room for people to try and say "You had pre-existing issues and now you're blaming everything on the drug because you can't deal with your life".

Not to say that there isn't some percentage of people who just have anxiety for a few weeks because they had a normal hangover and they were worried after reading about MDMA/serotonin neurotoxicity et cetera during their acute hangover, but I don't think that's the case with the majority of people with persisting HPPD/depersonalization/depression/anxiety/insomnia/brain zaps/severe cognitive difficulties/sleep paralysis. There are probably genuine biological underpinnings to these symptoms that would not have manifested above-threshold without the involvement of a drug, major stressor/chronic stress or a traumatic event.

That certainly doesn't necessitate neurotoxicity and so forth at all, which I'm worried about the adverse effect sufferers catastrophizing about, but I don't think that the adverse effects should be dismissed as being "all in one's head" (the general notion of the pro-MDMA group).

But the neuropsychiatric effects of MDMA have been documented in case reports since the 1980s. HPPD, or "Post-LSD visual syndrome" has been documented clinically for quite a long time as well. You also have the ever-increasing issue of adulterated ecstasy, and more and more people who are using "molly", meaning that we now have a larger population of drug users in which adverse effects can occur and hence we hear about these stories anecdotally more and more.

There are numerous studies showing abnormalities in ex-MDMA users as well, where self-medication of pre-existing mental illness isn't believed to play a role, although there are certainly risk factors for developing adverse effects after MDMA (in particular the same risk factor that predisposes one to adverse effects after acute tryptophan depletion and increased risk of mental illness after stress).

I should state for the record that I'm all for going full speed ahead on MDMA/psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, just to establish I'm not a crusader. I just don't think that we should fall into the age old trap of declaring a syndrome/disease a hysteria etc because we don't know much about it, therefore assume that its all in people's heads and had nothing to do with (in this case) the drug altering neurophysiology.

I think it was Robert Sapolsky that joked about telling someone with juvenile diabetes something like "What's up with this not producing insulin nonsense? Get yourself together and knock it off!" when he was speaking on the biology of depression and the public's general notion of being able to snap out of it. I'll end by saying I think mindfulness and not ruminating is actually really, really important for treating these adverse effects (and depression), but that's because mindfulness really does shift your neurophysiology back to a normalized state.
 
I agree with you - couple of points though.

You state - 'these side effects are so rare you only hear about them online' and 'neuropsychiatric effects of MDMA have been documented in case reports since the 1980s'

When you think about the number of users this section has (and site really) and the proportion of users suffering from these horror stories the numbers just don't add up. The cases you have reported are not from a single dose which many in this section report on - 'I took 150mg of MDMA 5 years ago and I'm still having xyz' again the numbers just don't add up.

I have stated before that these threads do more harm than good - of course there are side effects, of course people can run into problems but when you look at the amount of people taking MDMA each week if a side effect was these types of problems from a single use the drug wouldn't be as popular. Without going online - if you knew anyone that had a serious side effect as stated in this thread would you take the risk? So friends of friends, friends of them, stories in raves, clubs etc. I have never heard such a story in real life.

I'm certainly not saying it is a safe drug and it is not without risks.
 
I agree with you - couple of points though.

You state - 'these side effects are so rare you only hear about them online' and 'neuropsychiatric effects of MDMA have been documented in case reports since the 1980s'

When you think about the number of users this section has (and site really) and the proportion of users suffering from these horror stories the numbers just don't add up. The cases you have reported are not from a single dose which many in this section report on - 'I took 150mg of MDMA 5 years ago and I'm still having xyz' again the numbers just don't add up.

I have stated before that these threads do more harm than good - of course there are side effects, of course people can run into problems but when you look at the amount of people taking MDMA each week if a side effect was these types of problems from a single use the drug wouldn't be as popular. Without going online - if you knew anyone that had a serious side effect as stated in this thread would you take the risk? So friends of friends, friends of them, stories in raves, clubs etc. I have never heard such a story in real life.

I'm certainly not saying it is a safe drug and it is not without risks.

Hi Bearlove,

When you say the numbers 'just don't add up', what do you mean exactly ? Are you implying that there are more 'horror stories' than there should be ? or the opposite. Personally I think it makes sense that there would be an increase in the online presence of people who claim to be suffering from adverse effects from MDMA as this is a internet site that is somewhat anonymous where people can share, learn and relate.

I don't think these threads do more harm than good. Where else would people go ? To a doctor perhaps...This site offers a temporary sanctuary for affected people to interact with others who also believe they have suffered adverse effects. That's a good thing in my opinion, and this is backed up by the recovery stories seen in past threads in which a lot of those people state that communicating on bluelight was invaluable.

You may of not heard of a similar story in real life. I myself have not heard of any friends that have suffered these sets of symptoms described in so called LTCs, but that may be because you simply do not know. A lot of people on this forum don't expose this negative part of their life to others they know in real life. Maybe family members and close friends may know, but even then, I would prefer to keep stuff like this to myself.

Though I do think the drug is a wonderful substance, and i'm eager to see its potential benefits in treating PTSD. I also have never suffered from using this drug, but I have from less benign substances.
 
You state - 'these side effects are so rare you only hear about them online' and 'neuropsychiatric effects of MDMA have been documented in case reports since the 1980s'

When you think about the number of users this section has (and site really) and the proportion of users suffering from these horror stories the numbers just don't add up. The cases you have reported are not from a single dose which many in this section report on - 'I took 150mg of MDMA 5 years ago and I'm still having xyz' again the numbers just don't add up.

I think one of the reasons why you hear about the adverse effects online and not so much IRL is that after the doctors have no answers and people are still having a really rough time months later, they tend to google and find bluelight. So to me the apparent disproportionate reporting of good experiences vs. bad experiences on bluelight compared to real life is simply due to being able to find bluelight and so forth with google. The adverse sufferers are certainly a minority but they are vocal thanks to search engines.

I have never actually seen specific data on the very old case reports of depersonalization after MDMA so I can't tell you if that was after many uses or not, but I think the key thing to remember is that people have severe mental illness drugs notwithstanding - some people might be right on the edge, and the people that have increased risk of adverse effects after MDMA (a particular serotonin transporter gene) have increased risk of depression, anxiety and PTSD after stress, and acute tryptophan depletion leads to depression in this population, whereas other people without this gene don't react negatively to tryptophan depletion as far as mood. Not everyone is the same - there is an extraordinary degree of variation from person to person, especially variation in the pre-frontal cortex.

Think of how different everyone's personality is. One person has autism spectrum disorder, another is neurotypical. One person has seizures, another person has bipolar I. One person has schizophrenia, and another person has the ability to solve 313 x 267 in their head. Are we expecting MDMA to change neurophysiology the exact same across all those populations?

So I don't think these adverse effects (including HPPD) are like serotonin neurotoxicity where we would be expecting it to be related to cumulative use over time - a powerful shift in the brain's network could certainly happen after one trip even after many previous normal trips. Persistent altered states of consciousness (sugar coat for "psychosis") after one dose of LSD are noted for example. I can name other examples of a persisting change after an acute experience, especially if we go down the PTSD or addicting drugs route.

But I would argue that the majority of the severe adverse effects sufferers were actual abusers or were under special circumstances. I don't think that the one dose/one time people make up much of the severe adverse effect sufferers population.


I've been told recently that the brain's circuits are often multi-modal (this was in the context of discussing HPPD). That is to say that they can have different operating states - where one state can be "normal", another state may correspond to HPPD-symptoms (which occur in drug naïve people). I don't think its unfeasible that psychedelics can flip someone into another state and it takes a while to flip back. People could have significant individual variations in vulnerability to flip modes in the first place.

The stories of depersonalization after cannabis use seem to occur primarily within the first few uses - this was true for my friend who had it happen on her first use. Depersonalization for months ensued. Although I had no idea what it was at the time, I now realize her description of things matched depersonalization exactly, and depersonalization after cannabis is indeed noted in the literature.

I have stated before that these threads do more harm than good - of course there are side effects, of course people can run into problems but when you look at the amount of people taking MDMA each week if a side effect was these types of problems from a single use the drug wouldn't be as popular. Without going online - if you knew anyone that had a serious side effect as stated in this thread would you take the risk? So friends of friends, friends of them, stories in raves, clubs etc. I have never heard such a story in real life.

I'm certainly not saying it is a safe drug and it is not without risks.

One of the reasons why I compared these adverse effects to anti-epileptic skin reactions like SJS and TENS is because they are probably ballpark in that same category of rarity.

Not to get political, but there had been some talk of the removal of phase III trials under the guidance of the Trump FDA appointee (he apparently wishes to do away with phase III). After asking if this would have significant consequences, I was told that safety isn't even evaluated fully until phase IV, and that phase II/III often only catches the common side effects, and the rare side effects can be missed until phase IV with the drug out on the market.

If under controlled situations with large populations (phase III) rare side effects aren't often caught, I certainly would expect some serious trouble detecting the rare side effects of illicit drug use. Yes we can do a study in people who have +300 lifetime uses, and we can see this and that about their brain or cognition, but the cases where people get severe adverse effects after a bad weekend slip through the cracks. I've never even been able to find a single neuroimaging study on people with HPPD, yet it is indeed a DSM diagnosis and recognized clinical entity. We essentially have to take what we can get at this point as far as data about these rare adverse effects, and people posting on bluelight is a piece of (anecdotal) data that we shouldn't cast aside just because we're in the day and age of transgender mania type stuff.

"I have stated before that these threads do more harm than good"

I personally don't seem the harm in this thread especially. I hope OP is okay with me writing this, but they have attempted suicide twice in the last 7 months (since these adverse effects after months of ecstasy abuse) and would like to hear stories about people recovering. What's wrong with that?

There is a complete disconnect between the people who have/have had the adverse effects and the people who haven't. Because the adverse effects are so rare and are mostly reported online where the minority can be vocal, this is one of the few places in which the OP can get support. The adverse effects sufferers certainly don't get support from their friends that keep on using drugs and wonder what the hell is wrong with their friend because "I took the same drug and I'm fine so there must be something wrong with him, it can't be the drug that I gave him that caused it".

Doctors oftentimes don't connect with their patients on this matter because they are used to dealing with hypochondriacs and immediately throw these patients into that category. Their families don't understand it because they are oftentimes pretty drug naïve or unaccepting of the person in question's drug use. People lose their friends, jobs and significant others over these adverse effects, just as you could lose all that with a regular DSM mental illness.

While the clinicians urge people with various illness to attend support groups, I'm not aware of any local substituted-amphetamine-depersonalization support groups, so unfortunately people kinda just have bluelight. Although I fully support seeing a psychologist/social worker and trying CBT et cetera.

I totally get that there are endless "help I took too much MDMA threads", but this thread in particular seems like a helpful one for the OP to hear about recovery stories... The people talking about just accepting "irreversible brain damage" and then comparing that to a shoulder injury aside.

Sorry for the novel, and I hope I don't seem argumentative. My life really got turned upside down to say the least by severe E abuse when I was 14 so I'm just very passionate about it. And for what it's worth, I have heard a couple stories IRL since then, particularly one of insomnia after E abuse.
 
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I wish I could use MDMA like most people, when I enjoyed it, it was my favourite drug for socialising.I didn't even abuse it all, after 3 months of once per month use (of single 120mg doses per use), I became incredibly depressed. I didn't even think it was the MDMA at first.Time went on though and I continued to use MDMA every few months, except now my highs were just dark and depressing anxious messes. I decided to stop taking it, and roughly 8 months later, oh shit, I feel mostly OK again.I took MDMA again and a week or so later, boom, there's the EXACT same type of depressive and anxious thinking again. It's a very distinct set of anxieties and thought patterns.Use it again within a few months and the effects become semi-permanent again, taking at least 8 months to subside.It's taken me four years of breaks and relapses and a lot of introspection to figure out that it is the MDMA causing this and how it is affecting me exactly.The scary thing for me is that there is a baseline level of his depressive anxious thinking that remains with me permanently, and my enjoyment of other drugs has been affected by it.The even funnier part is that I only ever used one batch of MDMA, I bought a large amount and even had it GC/MS'd - 98.6% pure MDMA.HCl with no active contaminants.I wish it was, but it simply can't be all imagined.Most people I know who are reasonably self-aware do seem to end up feeling these sort of effects from MDMA eventually to varying extents.
 
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Once again the horror stories recounted above reveal a lack of understanding about how mdma works, about basic precautions such as testing and allowing sufficient time between use.
If you are not getting this information please ask why. It is available on this forum and elsewhere, if your government discounts it as fake news, or as dangerous, you need to take action and work for change.
 
I'm so sick of hearing these favricated mdma horror stories. If you can't handle mdma, you fucking suck.
 
Fabricated in what sense? That people would have had the same adverse had they been given a placebo?
 
I'm so sick of hearing these favricated mdma horror stories. If you can't handle mdma, you fucking suck.

And if you can't handle people who did bad stuff to themselves because they were misinformed, naive or didn't had the access to information, you suck twice as much. I have never seen such an insensible and egoic heart. People do mistakes, give or take, I doubt you never did something stupid in your life, heh mr. Perfect?

If you don't screw yourself with drugs, probably you'll be screwed in other areas of your life due being so arrogant and insensitive. Be well.
 
Fabricated in that they're probably paid online government anti-drug trolls.
 
Fabricated in that they're probably paid online government anti-drug trolls.

This is rather paranoid if you ask me. Why the stance that adverse effects from substituted amphetamines/cathinones are bogus? I don't think anybody is claiming that they are incredibly common by any means, and most of us are very pro psychotherapeutic use of MDMA.

Are the anti-meth people government paid trolls as well?
 
I wouldn't put it past them. And I've found meth to be a very good drug when used properly.
 
I think there is great risk of not being able to use it properly. The issue is that addicting drugs impair the brain's function that is necessary to use properly, so the "when used properly" caveat is not quite convincing to me. And I'm sure that even when used properly methamphetamine can still speed along schizophrenia and other mental illness. I imagine chronic "proper" use (Whatever that is, once a week?) can still cause anhedonia in some as well, and the sleep deprivation/sympathetic activation is certainly going to age people and cause physical/mental health issues.
 
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