Why most apap is cought 1st filter, yet none on 2nd with fabric. APAP crystallisation

[Anon54]

It's funny how when I use a hanky for first filtering (some may use a shirt or another fabric) 75% (or whatever it is) of the APAP gets captured into the hanky like a big rock after squeezing but if I repeat the process a second time than no APAP gets cought in the hanky.
If the hanky catches 75% (or whatever it catches) of the APAP the first time, shouldnt it catch 75% of it the second time?
Instead no more can be cought! It's like some of the APAP "mixes" with water or maybe isn't "crystalized" anymore.
This is what I doesn't understand. I know the coffee filter than stops the remanding APAP from getting through but I'm still confused as to why u cant re-filter through the hanky a second time & catch any more.
It doesn't make any sense!8)

I can only assume that a certain amount of APAP is required for it to join together & crystalize & the rest than mixes in with the water otherwise there would be no need to use a coffee filter. Could someone with chemistry knowledge plz explain this?

If the fabric can catch most of the APAP, than why in hell Isn't it capable of catching all of the APAP?

 

[polarbearsarecool]

are you repeating the whole process by refreezing then refiltering? That might be your problem.... with this method its impossible to collect the "crystals" if none are visibly frozen

 

[Anon54]

umm im just simply wondering why if a hanky can catch 75% of the APAP on the first filter, than why it can't capture anymore if u tip the solution through again, immedietely. (Not after re-freezing or anything)

If I put my Codeine/APAP solution through a hanky it will catch approx 75% of the APAP, if I imedietely put that filtered solution through a second identical hanky it will not catch any more APAP.

In theory if it can catch Some APAP, than it should be able to catch some more if put through it again. but it doesnt.

It proves that some of the APAP joins together, big enough not to get through the hanky. Yet the rest of the APAP doesn't join, or doesn't join enough to be big enough to get trapped by the hanky.

If all the APAP shared the same properties as the big APAP crystals that get cought the first time through the hanky. There would be no need to re-filter again through a coffee filter because the hanky would catch all the insoluble APAP, instead of just most the APAP.

You could squeeze every last drop out & it would only contain codeine & the small amount of soluble APAP. there would be no need to sit around waiting for it to drip through a coffee filter.
Because all the possible amount of APAP would already be removed.

Unfortunetely, some of the APAP joins together big enough to get cought by the hanky, & no matter how hard I squeeze they hanky, it won't get through, while the rest of the APAP mixes with the water or hasnt attached itself to as many other APAP particals.

It would be great to know in what conditions the APAP joins together in large crystals. than it would be as simple as squeezing it through a hanky & getting the best possible extraction every time.

 

[vecktor]

you have already posted the answer, it is because the size of the solid apap is variable and the small particles can get through the fabric.

 

[Anon54]

yeah, it's just interesting that every time I do CWE the hanky captures the same amount of APAP. I'm not sure of the amount (70%-90% ) maybe.
Be interesting to know if it is possible to delibertely add more apap from your first filtration so the APAP particalals recrystalized bigger & it would be possible to get more out of hanky (but at what point would the APAP u add outweigh the APAP u would filter out?)
I was trying to do abit of research myself on google. & read something saying that APAP particals join together better the more rapid the temperature if lowered.
I couldn't understand the artical very well though because it was all over my head.
Maybe certain amounts of water, temperatures, how fast the temp changes, the amount of time the APAP is left in the water & how much APAP or Codeine used has an influence on what % of the APAP stayed big enough to be easily filtered out. Be good if there was an easy environment to place APAP in that would make all the insoluble apap join together. than u could get the least amount of apap & the most amount of codeine every time without the wait of the coffee filter.

Has anyone tried leaving the solution in the fridge (turned down to a very low temp) over night? maybe after all that time the APAP binds together more.

Still confused as to why everytime i use CWE the same amount of APAP is cought simply by a hanky. Might have to do some research on substances to help crystalize APAP or something.
Was hoping someone else could give me these answers. but I guess that's what the internet is for.

So, these particals that are to small to be captured by the fabric, I assume would be to small to fall to the bottom of the glass. explaining cloudy solutions without a sludge layer at the bottom, right?

 

[Anon54]

I might add:
Has anyone who has ended up with a cloud solution tried to add 1-2 more pills in an attempt to add enough APAP for it too all fall down to the bottom again.

If u end up with a cloudy solution (made up of small APAP particals), who's to say how much APAP is in the solution u drink. Maybe it would be a plausable idea to add more APAP pills, 1 by 1 untill it recrystallizes & falls to the bottom, seperating from the water again. then u can try to refilter again.

I know that if i add 1-2 grams of apap to cold water it will instantly fall to the bottom of the water. Does this mean that if the solution is cloudy it must not contain anymore than a few grams & is safe to drink. or could it be possible that the cloudy water has alot more apap in it than 1-2 grams but happens to be the kind that are the small particals.

mmmm.... all to confusing for me.

Can't work out why it's possible to for some people to end up with an white, opaque solution when on the other hand adding 1 gram of APAP to the same amount of cold water will instantly fall to the bottom! Can anybody explain that?

 

[MrKitty2]

isnt APAP slightly water soluble? so some of it will eventually dissolve if you leave it in water too long, and then will not filter out

 

[Anon54]

lol, I only find that post funny cuz i just drank some cwe other wise i'd try to explain it all over again. not talking at all about the slightly soluble APAP.
dissolved pills in water, went out for a few hrs & when i got back it was actually starting to just freeze on top (I changed the fridge setting to the coldest possible setting).
When i put it through the hanky this time it cought basically all the insoluble APAP & than when i put it through the coffee filter it basically only cought up a few more spects.
I believe that APAP may crystalize or form as a solid together better over time. Maybe the majority settles to the bottom after 5 mins but the last little bit takes a few hrs.

This would actually answer my own question. The hanky capturers the APAP that has completely fallen to the bottom (& has joined into larger particals). If u let it settle to the bottom for longer there will be less of the smaller particals, the hanky will capture more & putting it thrugh the coffee filter will need to capture less of the left over APAP.

this may be useful for ppl who cwe several dosages at a time. I only do 1 dose at a time but if my theory is correct it may make for a much easier filter. I also got about 95-99 % of the water in the final solution out compared to the water I originally used. Usually it is only 80-85 %(meaning I loose about 20% of the codeine I assume) when quickly put it in the freezer for 45 mins, instead of the fridge set to its coldest setting which took about 4 hrs to actually start to freeze.

 

[Mr. White]

A hanky is really a pretty crap filter to use, once you've filtered it once the particles are simply too small to be caught, they'll just go straight through the holes in the hanky. You'll need something better to catch those small particles ie. a coffee filter

The best method i've found is to filter once with a cloth (like a hanky) to get most of it out, then send the solution through a coffee filter.
Just using a coffee filter takes forever as the solution is so thick but the combination method works well.

Seriously, go down to the shops and buy some coffee filters. They're dirt cheap and its no extra effort to filter it again.

 

[nuke]

Or you can just get a vacuum flask, pump, filter papers and buchner funnel... they sell them all over the internet for like $50. But in this instance it's probably not important, as APAP really isn't all that dangerous unless you're consuming more than 2-4 grams per day on a regular basis.

 

[Anon54]

A hanky is really a pretty crap filter to use

Seriously, go down to the shops and buy some coffee filters. They're dirt cheap and its no extra effort to filter it again.

I ALWAYS have used coffee filters after I do a first extraction with 2 hankys heald together.
In ALL my posts Ive said they I've used a coffee filter after the hanky.
The last 2 posts completely off-topic to what im talking about. I didn't ask how to filter Codeine from APAP. I've known that for years

I'm stating that I did an experiment & noted that I cought about 95% of the APAP with JUST the hanky before putting through a coffee filter simply because I gave the APAP more time to settle to the bottom by leaving it in the fridge at it's coolerest adjustable temp for a few hrs (it actually started to freeze on top), instead of just putting it in the freezer for 45 mins where the hanky would only catch 80%.

So it would be a plausable thoery that over time the APAP joins to gether in larger particals. This would be helpful for ppl doing several CWE dosages at a time or want to get more Codeine out easier cuz the coffee filter will only catch an additional few specs of APAP.

If u read through all my posts I ended up answering my oringal question myself by doing some experimenting.

Vecktors post was the only one that new what im talking about.

MrKitty2: My post isnt about the sobluble apap

Mr. White: I didn't ask if a hanky was a suitable enough filtering device

nuke: I didn't ask where to buy coffee filters. I already got some, they sell em at the damn super market & I didn't ask if there was better filters than coffee filters.

My discussion is about WHY some APAP particals are small while others a large enough to be cought by the hanky. (why does the hanky catch 75% of the APAP, but no more!)

MY theory is that the the more time the APAP has to cystalize into larger particals & join together the more the hanky will capture!
Does anyone else have any other theorys?

Consitering I get answers to questions I don't ask maybe I'll ask what colour the sky is & I'll get a better answer

 

[MurphyClox]

MY theory is that the the more time the APAP has to cystalize into larger particals & join together the more the hanky will capture!

This ain't a theory but the usual rule in crystallisation: Slow crystallisation will yield bigger and more uniform crystals, whil fast crystallisation ("crushing out") will yield a mixture of all sizes.

- Murphy

 

[seep]

It's precisely because APAP is slightly water-soluble. Think for a second about what that means: a certain number of APAP molecules can be held in solution by a certain number of water molecules. Once that ratio is exceeded, you've saturated your solvent and the remaining APAP will precipitate.

All ratios can be expressed in the form of numerator and denominator. Increasing the numerator or decreasing the denominator will increase the value of the ratio. In other words: remove some water and more APAP will precipitate.

 

[Phener]

has anyone tried using a micron-type inline filter (the ones they use for sterilising IV solutions) - (AFTER first using a cloth/coffee type crude filter), was always on my to do list.

??

 

[Anon54]

This ain't a theory but the usual rule in crystallisation: Slow crystallisation will yield bigger and more uniform crystals, whil fast crystallisation ("crushing out") will yield a mixture of all sizes.

- Murphy

oh ok thx, it would seem this theory is correct & would be useful for ppl extracting large amounts or doses at once because it would be safer not having to deal with small particals of apap that sometimes have to be re-filtered several times to make the water as clear as possible.

It's precisely because APAP is slightly water-soluble. Think for a second about what that means: a certain number of APAP molecules can be held in solution by a certain number of water molecules. Once that ratio is exceeded, you've saturated your solvent and the remaining APAP will precipitate.

All ratios can be expressed in the form of numerator and denominator. Increasing the numerator or decreasing the denominator will increase the value of the ratio. In other words: remove some water and more APAP will precipitate.

I KNOW some apap is soluble in water & as u use more water the more apap is soluble. This is not what I'm talking about in this thread.
After I put through the hanky, I put through a coffee filter. The coffee filter, or any kind of filter can't catch the actual soluble apap because it's part of the water. (I know)

I'm only talking about apap that is insoluble & why it has larger & smaller particals. Why the hanky catches most, but u need to do another filter with the coffee filter to capture the rest.

I beleive that the hanky will capture more, the more time the apap is left in the water before filtering, beacuse when I put it in freezer for 45 mins it captures around 80% & when I leave it in fridge (at the lowest temp, that takes a few hrs to start to freeze) it captures around 95%.
Leaving the coffee filter with less work to do.

I wonder what would happen if u left it overnight in a very vold fridge. (about 5-10 degrees) The water from the hanky when squeezed would come out probably as clear as if the water had been put through a coffee filter. (I assume)

 

[seep]

Ok so you want to flocculate the colloid. Have you tried salting it?

Solutions are often a dynamic continuum once the saturation point is reached. This is one of those cases. Try salting it.

As far as theory goes, our friend Wiki has this to say:

The following forces play an important role in the interaction of colloid particles:

* Excluded volume repulsion: This refers to the impossibility of any overlap between hard particles.
* Electrostatic interaction: Colloidal particles often carry an electrical charge and therefore attract or repel each other. The charge of both the continuous and the dispersed phase, as well as the mobility of the phases are factors affecting this interaction.
* van der Waals forces: This is due to interaction between two dipoles that are either permanent or induced. Even if the particles do not have a permanent dipole, fluctuations of the electron density gives rise to a temporary dipole in a particle. This temporary dipole induces a dipole in particles nearby. The temporary dipole and the induced dipoles are then attracted to each other. This is known as van der Waals force, and is always present (unless the refractive indexes of the dispersed and continuous phases are matched), is short-range, and is attractive.
* Entropic forces: According to the second law of thermodynamics, a system progresses to a state in which entropy is maximized. This can result in effective forces even between hard spheres.
* Steric forces between polymer-covered surfaces or in solutions containing non-adsorbing polymer can modulate interparticle forces, producing an additional steric repulsive force (which is predominantly entropic in origin) or an attractive depletion force between them. Such an effect is specifically searched for with tailor-made superplasticizers developed to increase the workability of concrete and to reduce its water content.

You can also centrifuge that fucker. A simple centrifuge can be built from those electric motors found in toys, or even from a sling (ghetto, but sometimes effective).

---

ps: Thanks for giving me occasion to use the word "flocculate"!

I also think Murphy gave you the best solution: after you bring it to a near-boil, let it cool very slowly (see the Wiki for why). Use an Erlenmeyer, scratching the walls with a glass rod occasionally. Once it reaches room temp, continue cooling to 10 celsius in an ice bath.