Why is there MDA in MDMA Pills?

[Frac]

MDA is also produced before synthesis of MDMA...

MDA is not normally produced as an intermediate before making MDMA.

MDMA is made by first producing MDA.

Looks like you're out voted there TheDEA.org

I think while there is a route through MDA to MDMA, I don't think it's often used. As the reference above points out, both usually share the common intermediate MDP2P.

If I had a theory it would be that the next step, the reductive amination of MDP2P, is what gives rise to the mixture of MDA and MDMA. To make MDMA, you need methyl amine. This is often made by heating formaldehyde and ammonium chloride. That reaction is probably incomplete leaving a mixture of both methyl amine HCl and ammonium chloride.

Evidently, the aluminum amalgam reduction done with methyl amine to make MDMA also works with ammonium chloride to make MDA....i.e. you don't need sodium cyanoborohydride to make MDA. Hence you tend to end up with mixtures of MDMA/MDA depending on the ratio of methyl amine HCl/ammonium chloride used in that last step.

I just can't see people 'compounding' pills like a pharmacist for better effect. I'm sure it's done sometimes, and I think I recall the hypothesis that the combination of ketamine and MDMA in pills was intentional due to specific effects. But by and large, I figure they'll stick anything in pills that might give a stimulant or 'trippy' effect to cut costs.

But not MDA, I think that's an artifact of the chemistry I've described.

 

[Le Junk]

I just can't see people 'compounding' pills like a pharmacist for better effect. I'm sure it's done sometimes, and I think I recall the hypothesis that the combination of ketamine and MDMA in pills was intentional due to specific effects. But by and large, I figure they'll stick anything in pills that might give a stimulant or 'trippy' effect to cut costs.

But not MDA, I think that's an artifact of the chemistry I've described.

Agreed. Making MDMA out of MDA is rather "old school", but was very popular during the 90's.

But all in all, it's really just about the $$$.

 

[euphorically]

Frac, very interesting post! Chemistry has allways interested me, but damn its confusing if you are like me and didn't lisen that well in school! Have you got a degree or is google your best friend?

 

[Frac]

Yeah, Google is great! Check out and Google what I've said and see if you think it makes sense. But I don't think the theory I posted would be found...the best I came up with was that clip from the reference I posted and it doesn't say what I said at all.

But this is always something I've wondered about...what exactly is in pills and why is it there.

 

[Le Junk]

But this is always something I've wondered about...what exactly is in pills and why is it there.

$$$$?

 

[Frac]

Actually in this case I'm saying it has nothing to do with money. It's an artifact of some specific chemistry.

I think there's a number of things in MDMA pills that might not have anything to do with cutting costs. Maybe sloppy procedures etc. lead to them...impure reagents in this case.

MDA is the one that is very common and it's very active. The other stuff PUT in pills, ....meth, caffeine, DXM, etc.....those are the things intentionally added to pills to cut costs and make more money.

 

[Sprinklervibes]

^^ personally I doubt a chemist who thinks he's skilled enough to make MDMA will fuck up his synths in the last step. IMO MDA ís most of the time put in pills intentionally. Unless the chemist is actually fucking up his synth.

more about impurites in ecstasy
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=214454&highlight=MDMA+byproducts

 

[TheDEA.org]

Looks like you're out voted there TheDEA.org

I'm used to being in the minority of popular opinion.

If I had a theory it would be that the next step, the reductive amination of MDP2P, is what gives rise to the mixture of MDA and MDMA. To make MDMA, you need methyl amine. This is often made by heating formaldehyde and ammonium chloride. That reaction is probably incomplete leaving a mixture of both methyl amine HCl and ammonium chloride. Evidently, the aluminum amalgam reduction done with methyl amine to make MDMA also works with ammonium chloride to make MDA....i.e. you don't need sodium cyanoborohydride to make MDA. Hence you tend to end up with mixtures of MDMA/MDA depending on the ratio of methyl amine HCl/ammonium chloride used in that last step.

Without the electron-donating effect of the methyl group on the amine, the intermediate imine is much less stable; it rapidly reverts back to the ketone. As a result, the Shulgin-style amalgam reduction would not yield significant amounts of MDA, even if you did use a mixture of ammonia and methylamine.

ketone + amine <---> imine + reducing agent --> amine

The more energetically stable imine will be preferentially produced because it will exist for longer periods, giving it a greater chance to be reduced to an amine.

Ammonium chloride and methylamine chloride should be fairly easy to separate by crystallization from alcohol (methylamine is less polar, hence more soluble in alcohols, while the common ion effect from the chloride would drive ammonium chloride out of solution.)

I just can't see people 'compounding' pills like a pharmacist for better effect.

Many of the ratios are simply too high to be artifacts of synthesis. You might get 5:1 MDMA:MDA from a sloppy synth, but you won't get 2:1 or 1:1.

 

[redeemer]

Ammonium chloride and methylamine chloride should be fairly easy to separate by crystallization from alcohol (methylamine is less polar, hence more soluble in alcohols, while the common ion effect from the chloride would drive ammonium chloride out of solution.)

Absolute ethanol isn't easy to obtain by a clandestine chemist. This might be the reason from the sloppiness in this step of the synthesis.

 

[TheDEA.org]

High purity methanol and isopropanol are sold most places for removing water from car fuel tanks.

 

[drug related]

why not, is the better question...every pill was made for a reason, cost, or how much it fucks you up...guess what kind of pills fuck you up the most?

 

[Skyline_GTR]

Absolute ethanol isn't easy to obtain by a clandestine chemist.

And you think MDP2P is? We're not talking about clandestine chemists synthing a few grams here and there in a lab in their cellar... we're talking major labs in Holland which knock out 5 or 10 kilos of MDMA a day. These guys don't even mess about with safrole, they start with MDP2P sourced/diverted from China. So getting something like pure ethanol or methylamine isn't going to be very taxing for them!

But anyway I think large scale MDMA producers generally use the MDP2P in a leukart reaction to get MDMA, which (IIRC) doesn't actually require methylamine. So I'm with TheDEA.org on this one - MDMA/MDA combos in a pill are generally intentional, not through sloppy synthesis.

 

[Skyline_GTR]

But anyway I think large scale MDMA producers generally use the MDP2P in a leukart reaction to get MDMA, which (IIRC) doesn't actually require methylamine.

Well that theory didn't last very long - there was a major MDMA lab bust in Canada yesterday and they were busted with over half a tonne of sodium borohydride (and 200kg of MDMA freebase)...... which, incredibly, the fella had ordered to his residential address !

Story here.

A sodium borohydride reduction would need methylamine first... but I still don't buy the sloppy synthesis theory due to the ratios of MDMA/MDA in pills with both in. An example is the white hearts that were about in the UK a year or so ago, they were lab tested at 90mg of MDMA and 50mg of MDA...

 

[redeemer]

And you think MDP2P is?

MDP2P and absolute ethanol aren't really in the same category. MDP2P is a necessity while absolute ethanol essentially is an extra worry for the chemist that only adds to the difficulty of the synthesis or increases his chances of being busted.

Not obtaining MDP2P means no "ecstasy". Not obtaining absolute ethanol means not being sure you get pure MDMA while adding to the risk of being busted. I doubt there are many ecstasy dealers who complain when the pill isn't 100% MDMA, actually I doubt the majority of ecstasy dealers even know the difference between MDMA and MDA.

Ie., MDP2P is a necessity, absolute ethanol is a luxury.

I wouldn't say I believe it is caused by sloppiness but rather carefulness. The chemist figures the gains from purifying his methylamine isn't really worth the cost of the aboslute ethanol/the risk of being busted.