• Philosophy and Spirituality
    Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Threads of Note Socialize
  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

Why is the physical world so amenable to mathematical description?

Why can we describe the physical world so well in mathematical terms? Is there simply a coincidental similarity between the properties of items of analysis in the physical world and in the mathematical world? Is it the design of God? Evidence of the human mind imposing its own order on experience?

The universe must adhere to a certain set of laws, at our specific human level of perception, in order to exist.

Once you start to get into areas of mathematics and physics which go beyond our realm of understanding then it's not as 'perfect' and well-fitting as once thought. Things don't run like clockwork (Watchmaker argument anyone?). It starts to seep into the world of quantum mechanics, in which probabilities rule and the universe is a product of the tools we used to observe it. There's no way for us to OBJECTIVELY view the universe, it's always through our own filters. We humans can never escape that.

Remember that the map is not the territory. The tools and methods (metaphors, if you will) humans use to describe reality aren't ACTUAL reality but in fact models of it.

Our brains are biological built to think of this world as up, down, left, right, and before, now, and later. That's how we describe (using math) the location of everything around us, and ergo it's movement.

The menu (i.e. math) is not the actual meal.
 
Mereology and Set Theory

Maybe someone here can explain what the hell this is supposed to mean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mereology


I'm not seeing the difference here. Mereology seems to be a language to grasp partially ordered sets. What makes it different from set theory then?



From the same wiki article, not the best exposition to my mind but should give you a flavour of what sets them apart. If you want further info let me know and I'll try and ellucidate further.:)


From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mereology

[edit] Mereology and set theory
Stanisław Leśniewski rejected set theory, a stance that has come to be known as nominalism. For a long time, nearly all philosophers and mathematicians avoided mereology, seeing it as tantamount to a rejection of set theory. Goodman too was a nominalist, and his fellow nominalist Richard Milton Martin employed a version of the calculus of individuals throughout his career, starting in 1941.

Much early work on mereology was motivated by a suspicion that set theory was ontologically suspect, and that Occam's Razor requires that one minimise the number of posits in one's theory of the world and of mathematics. Mereology replaces talk of "sets" of objects with talk of "sums" of objects, objects being no more than the various things that make up wholes.

Many logicians and philosophers reject these motivations, on such grounds as:

They deny that sets are in any way ontologically suspect;
Occam's Razor, when applied to abstract objects like sets, is either a dubious principle or simply false;
Mereology itself is guilty of proliferating new and ontologically suspect entities such as fusions.
For a survey of attempts to found mathematics without using set theory, see Burgess and Rosen (1997).

In the 1970s, thanks in part to Eberle (1970), it gradually came to be understood that one can employ mereology regardless of one's ontological stance regarding sets. This understanding is called the "ontological innocence" of mereology. This innocence stems from the mereology being formalizable in either of two equivalent ways:

Quantified variables ranging over a universe of sets;
Schematic predicates with a single free variable.
Once it became clear that mereology is not tantamount to a denial of set theory, mereology became largely accepted as a useful tool for formal ontology and metaphysics.

In set theory, singletons are "atoms" which have no (non-empty) proper parts; many consider set theory useless or incoherent (not "well-founded") if sets cannot be built up from unit sets. The calculus of individuals was thought to require that an object either have no proper parts, in which case it is an "atom", or to be the mereological sum of atoms. Eberle (1970) showed how to construct a calculus of individuals lacking "atoms", i.e., one where every object has a "proper part" (defined below) so that the universe is infinite.

There are analogies between the axioms of mereology and those of standard Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory (ZF), if Parthood is taken as analogous to subset in set theory. On the relation of mereology and ZF, also see Bunt (1985). One of the very few contemporary set theorist to discuss mereology is Potter (2004).

Lewis (1991) went further, showing informally that mereology, augmented by a few ontological assumptions and plural quantification, and some novel reasoning about singletons, yields a system in which a given individual can be both a member and a subset of another individual. In the resulting system, the axioms of ZFC (and of Peano arithmetic) are theorems.

Forrest (2002) revises Lewis's analysis by first formulating a generalization of CEM, called "Heyting mereology", whose sole nonlogical primitive is Proper Part, assumed transitive and antireflexive. There exists a "fictitious" null individual that is a proper part of every individual. Two schemas assert that every lattice join exists (lattices are complete) and that meet distributes over join. On this Heyting mereology Forrest erects a theory of pseudosets, adequate for all purposes to which sets have been put.
 
Math is something we noticed, or discovered. We plucked it out of "nature", we didn't create it.
 
Mathematics is probably one of those things that lies at the intersection of our inner worlds and the outer world. Each contribute certain components of it.
 
Interesting discussion. A few points, questions and riffs:

yougene, you said that mathematics describes the physical world so well simply because the relationships between numbers has some type of correspondence with entities in the physical world. Doesn't this simply bring us back to the same question, posed in slightly different language?

There are, after all, many ways of constructing sets and relationships. Why do those associated with numbers work so well in describing the physical world?

Is it significant at all that for most of human history, human beings had little explicit conception of mathematics?

Quantum mechanics is startling in many ways, but only because it violates our physical intuitions--not because it violates mathematics. In fact, might QM not be an example where mathematics, in conjunction with empirical data of course, leads us to a place that our physical intuition has difficulty following?
 
There are, after all, many ways of constructing sets and relationships. Why do those associated with numbers work so well in describing the physical world?

Because that's where we stumbled upon it.

In other words, we didn't make 2 + 2 = 4. We didn't create that. We noticed it.

We need three rocks, we only have one.... It may have only been the tip of the iceberg when we noticed it, but it didn't arise out of thin air.

We noticed it in the physical world around us, that's why it describes it so well.
 
yougene, you said that mathematics describes the physical world so well simply because the relationships between numbers has some type of correspondence with entities in the physical world. Doesn't this simply bring us back to the same question, posed in slightly different language?
It's not quite the same question. You asked about the relationship between two specific ontologies and I stated that these relationships can exist between many ontologies on some level. It's a recontextualization from the particular to the general.



There are, after all, many ways of constructing sets and relationships. Why do those associated with numbers work so well in describing the physical world?
Numbers have attributes that are isomorphic to physical phenomena. They are labels that are ordered, have interval scale, and have an origin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_measurement

Notice that each attribute depends on the one before it. For example, you can't have an interval scale without ordinal notation. And you can't have ordinality without a labeling system.

There's no reason that interior phenomena can't be mapped to a mathematics. The problem is no interior phenomena can be mapped beyond ordinal relationships.



Is it significant at all that for most of human history, human beings had little explicit conception of mathematics?
I think so.
satricion said:
you're saying that the specific schema we come up with is contingent, but the fact that it is isomorphic with the world is not
 
Wow this is a great topic. Subscribed. Too tired to contribute much atm, but I'll def be checking up on this thread tomorrow to post my thoughts.
 
I think on reflection, passing over predictavism, formalism, logicism, and intuitionism, structuralism and nominalism, only to fall back to a Platonic understanding of mathematics (the latter being the only one I can fully grasp given my limited knowledge of maths), the various philosophical disputes surrounding Set Theory and computational proofs, Has led me to view this question slightly differently.

I still contend that Mathematics is strictly phenomenal, and is today faced with the same foundational questions that were first explored by the Pre-Socratics.

Is all in constant flux (as Heraclitus posited), ontologically divisible into things, and thence via Pythagoreanism an ontology based on number.

or

Is All One (as the Eleatics posited), ontologically indivisible, as Zeno and his paradoxes sought to prove - all attemps at quantification, division, ordinality and proportion an ontological dead end.

What both schools, and many in between struck on was the almost magical nature of the infinite, and the infinitessimal. To my mind we have progressed little since then.

We have engaged in ever more ingenious and complex phenomenal abstractions. We are still no closeer to knowing in what manner, if any, these phenomena relate to the noumena we believe thay represent. We are left with the question:

What is 'mathematical understanding'?

Is it the apogee of human knowledge. A super-set of various branches of Maths that is the meta-theory that links the phenomenal with the noumenal, and therefore the 'bridge' between the self and the other (the non-self).

Or is it so consistent with physical world because the 'physical world' is merely the phenomenal world.

In other words is it perhaps that mathematics in fact, by appearing to make the physical world amenable to its explanatory powers, is doing nothing more than making the world of phenomena, structured as it is by the very same mind that quantifies, organises - that imposes its ontology upon it, is merely looking at itself in a mirror.

Perhps Mathematics has much more to do with explaining us (our consciousness, mind, soul...whichever tag you prefer), than with explaining the noumenal world we are so eager to know.
 
It's not quite the same question. You asked about the relationship between two specific ontologies and I stated that these relationships can exist between many ontologies on some level. It's a recontextualization from the particular to the general.

I think it still leaves the question unanswered. You've said, by way of stating that different sets can exhibit similar relationships between elements of the respective sets, that there is similarity between mathematics and physical objects.

Okay, but this answer to the original question boils down to: the physical world is so amenable to mathematical description because mathematics as a language contains attributes and relationships that correspond in a sense to the physical world.

This is of course correct, and follows from the fact that the physical world is amenable to mathematical description. I'm not sure it addresses why this amenability occurs in the first place, however.

Numbers have attributes that are isomorphic to physical phenomena. They are labels that are ordered, have interval scale, and have an origin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_measurement

This isn't enough to deduce mathematics, however, without including additional axioms. Nor, really, is it enough to render an abstract system useful in measuring and describing physical phenomena.
 
Okay, but this answer to the original question boils down to: the physical world is so amenable to mathematical description because mathematics as a language contains attributes and relationships that correspond in a sense to the physical world.
My point is amenability isn't unique to mathematics. Language in general is amenable to describing the universe.


This is of course correct, and follows from the fact that the physical world is amenable to mathematical description. I'm not sure it addresses why this amenability occurs in the first place, however.
My claim as to why this happens is in the first post.
yougene said:
The mapping of math onto the world works the same reason metaphor works.
The types of relationships, objects take on with one another are the same from one ontology to the next. For example, I can tell you that a computer is organized like a nested Russian doll, or I can tell you that a computer can be seen as a partially ordered set of circuits. You can get a good description of any 2 of these via isomorphisms of the 3rd one.
If the universe exhibits isomorphisms across all levels and language is part of the universe than how could it be any other way?

My argument extends from a claim of what the universe is. I think you're glossing over that important detail.


In a broad sense everything corresponds to everything else. Everything is a whole, consisting of parts, which is itself a part of a bigger whole, connected by countless relations.
I can shuffle sticks and stones around and that could correspond to a computer processor, neuron firing, or any other phenomena.


This isn't enough to deduce mathematics, however, without including additional axioms. Nor, really, is it enough to render an abstract system useful in measuring and describing physical phenomena.
Your question wasn't about constructing mathematics. You asked why numbers in particular map so well onto physical phenomena. The ability to use ratio scale is one attribute that sets mathematical analysis apart from other applied mathematical domains.
 
Last edited:
^^

I agree with your reference to Mathematics and language if one holds a Chomskian view on 'Universal Language' - and I believe this theory, in its anthropocentricism, again tells us more about us (Brain, Mind, Soul...whichever view one ascribes to). That it is something about us that makes language what it is. In the same way it is something about us that makes Mathematics what it is.

To return to the OPs question I think one must look at all of mathematics, a meta-analysis of all its branches, rather than a selection of one above the other. This is why I stressed the meta-mathematical/philosophy of Maths as holding the key to insight into the question as it struggles to make sense of the various branches of Mathematics, numbers, sets, computability etc.

That many problems of Maths don't seem to be computational, that the human mind is more adept at solving mathematical problems (higher Maths), than a computer I think reinforces the idea of a phenomenalistic interpretation.

Mathematics makes us (brain, mind, soul) amenable to Mathematic description, rather than any noumenalistic 'physcial world' - I hope this is making sense, I stopped formal studay of Maths at 16 so might be missing the 'mathematical' part of this question, but the philosophy of Mathematics leads me to this very tentative (and somewhat Hermetic) conclusion.

I hope this discussion continues, as I am learning a lot :)
 
Top