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Why does cocaine kill the MDMA high?

Metcalf

Metcalf

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Oct 23, 2005
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It seems generally accepted that cocaine will kill an MDMA high. I've always been curious as to why this is. I assume it somehow disrupts the magic ratio of dopamine to serotonin being released but are there any other factors?

Similarly, is this balance of neurotransmitters being released what causes the MDMA high to be so unique?
 
It's probably several factors. MDMA releases some of the dopamine it releases via the dopamine transporter (approx 50% via dopamine transporter in rodents [1]. Cocaine blocks the dopamine transporter (DAT) and hence prevents this effect. Furthermore, cocaine blocks the serotonin transporter to a degree (to what degree has not been calculated in humans) which will block the serotonin release as well.
 
Hypothetically if one were to increase the release of just one neurotransmitter, either dopamine or serotonin, would that ruin the MDMA high or can that only be accomplished by blocking release?

Also, do BZP and TFMPP mimic an MDMA high by mimicking the amounts of serotonin and dopamine released?
 
BZP releases serotonin, TFMPP is just a direct serotonin agonist.

Increasing the release of dopamine and/or serotonin doesn't ruin the MDMA high... i.e. that's the same as just taking more MDMA, or meth.

To really block the high to need to use a reuptake inhibitor, i.e. cocaine or SSRIs.
 
Too much of any type amphetamine or cocaine can short circut brain/nervous system electrical activity. Don't kill yourself looking for a better buzz.
 
Ask Glen Bias. But you'll need a medium. His future was so bright he would have had to wear shades. Instead he shorted out. Irregular electrical impulses from his brain, caused cardiac arrest. Cost him his life, it only cost his coach his job.
 
^ Holy god. Even if irregular neural signals did cause cardiac arrest, that has nothing to do with a "short circuit".
 
It may have something to do with brainwave activity.

Once the brain has too many high frequency 'beta' waves; or is too desyncronised (things stimulants do) happy feelings dry up -> feeling 'stressed' -> manic / wired feelings -> no feelings / feelings of paranoia / trauma
 
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I was asking more for a response based on scientific evidence, not on short circuts and brainwaves.
 
No offence - buts there's plenty of scientific evidence about brainwaves, EEG's, the states of mind they produce and what transmitters/ homones are released when a particular brainwave is dominant:

From the centrepointe research institute:

gr_brainwave_chart.gif

​
 
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While of course EEG signals and the cortical occilations that they represents are of paramount importances in to the emergent properties of the brain, I have yet to see any study that shows that a shifting of EEG frequencies leads to changes in the effects of drugs.

Furthermore, even if stimulants were able to shift EEG peak frequencies and in doing so, stops amphetamines from acting, if one took a lot of amphetamines you would not get higher, and you infact get less high.
 
BilZ0r said:
Furthermore, even if stimulants were able to shift EEG peak frequencies and in doing so, stops amphetamines from acting, if one took a lot of amphetamines you would not get higher, and you infact get less high.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say they generally become less active, as they act on various receptor types in the body also. But how the the experience 'feels' would change.

For example, Theta waves are associated with feelings; Alpha waves with serotonin release. Low beta is associated with excitement; high beta with anxiety.

Stimulant meds seem to strengthen an ADHD childs weak beta waves, allowing them to concentrate better.

This seems to agree with the idea that cocaine weakens the MDMA experience, by raising the ratio of released dopamine to serotonin and pushing the dominant brain frequency upwards.

It would be interesting to see how each psychoactive drug 'feels' is linked to their brainwaves...

Anyway - I digress. :)
 
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Complicated

You realize it doesnt have to be that complicated, the brain is electrically based, receptor binding causes an electrical signal to be transfered.

Where that electrical signal goes and what its eventual effect is, is nearly irrelevent. The fact is that at this level the major players are neurotransmitter reuptake, reuptake transporter reversal, release and destruction, going into brain waves for an answer is a bit in depth. Its a good discussion though.

Bilzor already posted a correct answer and references.

I have yet to see any drug that can knock brain waves off to the point you go into cardiac arrest. I didnt say drug that can cause cardiac arrest....mind you
 
Adhd

As for adhd, i have a feeling the use of amphetamine in children came about after 40 years of watching truck drivers take it to concentrate on driving.

Nifty side effect, not a direct fix to the original problem.
 
For example, Theta waves are associated with feelings; Alpha waves with serotonin release.
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Dude, you need to lay of the new-age EEG websites.

For one, serotoninergic agents decrease alpha spectral power [1 and reference therein]. Dopaminergic and serotoninergic drugs do this. So just stop it. "Feelings" wtf? Classicaly, theta is associated with Working memory in humans.

You realize it doesnt have to be that complicated, the brain is electrically based, receptor binding causes an electrical signal to be transfered
Click to expand...
Not all receptor activation leads to a direct current flow.
 
BilZ0r said:
Dude, you need to lay of the new-age EEG websites.

For one, serotoninergic agents decrease alpha spectral power [1 and reference therein]. Dopaminergic and serotoninergic drugs do this. So just stop it."Feelings" wtf? Classicaly, theta is associated with Working memory in humans.
Click to expand...

Oops. The theta wave thing was a mistake :|

Also, I'm not suggesting brain waves cause heart attacks!

The reference you gave uses fenfluramine - yes it does cause serotonin release - but no it's not psychoactive.

That reference shows fenfluramine depresses alpha, delta and theta waves. It also mentions in a previous article, MCPP, a serotonin agonist, depresses low frequency EEG activity.

So, if they damp the lower frequencies, the higher frequencies stand out more, no?

I once saw in a book 'ADD for adults' by Dr surfontein?, a neurologist, pictures of EEG's of kids with untreated ADHD, and another of the same child taking stimulant medication. The 2nd EEG showed a general increase in the frequency of the waves; less delta waves, more beta waves.

All I'm saying is there may be a link with changes in brainwaves caused by psychoactive drugs, that users may 'feel' subjectively. I'm not really in a position to prove or disprove it. <shrug>
 
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Psychoactive drugs cause changes in EEG, but EEG changes don't negate the effect of psychoactive drugs.

So, if they damp the lower frequencies, the higher frequencies stand out more,
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not neccesarily. Well they might stand out more on the trace, but that doesn't mean they have any more power.
 
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