Opioids Why do people quit using opiates in a variety of ways?

[tricomb]

Individual body chemistry. Do no be so quick to question others. What works for you may not work for the guy down the road.

This

300mg of morphine isn't that big of a habit for a lot of the people on here, so I would say that your worst withdrawals wouldn't even come close to the withdrawals that a lot of people on here experience. Availability is another big factor. If you have very easy access to dope while trying to kick it's pretty easy to give in and cop, especially if you have dealers calling you saying they are down the block from you and have fire dope for cheaper than usual.

and this. Pretty much sums up this thread in my opinion and experience.

300mg morphine per day is nothing compared to what most of us, not like this is at all something to brag about, it should go verbatim that the bigger the habit, usually the deeper shit we are into, and sometimes tapering either fails or cannot be accomplished because you simply lack the control to stick to the taper (core element of addiction) and when all the standard first-line treatments fail. I wish I could get 300mg of morphine to manage my pain taken orally. Just not possible for my unique body chemistry.

 

[itsALLfake]

So going on maintenance, you can not relapse because you can not get high from full agonists right? So is there not a drug that is not opiate based but blocks the receptors? Or do you need to have that opiate in your system, regardless of if you are high or not? I have really been pondering these questions.


[\QUOTE]

^Lady Codone
I don't know how deep you've been, but never exploding with fluids in either direction of your body in withdrawal? I don't see how that's possible if you've been at a bottom before. Plus, I don't see how one could call it cravings while withdrawing. If you're truly withdrawing, you know there's only one thing on this planet to get you well, so using the word craving in this sense doesn't really fit for me, let alone to someone with minute experience in this. "Some people get hardcore cravings when withdrawing, others don't...." Again, if you don't fall into the prior category, I don't feel like you've really been in a real physical withdrawal. Plus, that statement takes away from what could've have been a good point. How about...Knowing that there's only one thing on the planet that will give you relief...? While I would withdraw, feeling high was my last priority. Just being able to move away from the toilet, not gurgling bile up, being able to eat, and just feeling normal took priority. Of course, once I was stabilized, I would continue that chase to get constantly high, but that's a different story.

There are antagonists for opioids, but they don't provide the withdrawing alleviating effects that most need. If your withdrawals aren't intense after the second day, you should just consider naloxone by itself to prevent you from relapse, but that too is an opioid. Buprenorphine works extremely well if you use it properly, but most addicts don't follow instructions except the ones they make up for themselves.

Buprenorphine treatment is rather funny though. Most people involved with this method, including myself some time ago, regardless if you have knowledge on the neural function of Buprenorphine, for some reason many people keep dosing and dosing. Regardless that I knew >~200ug wouldn't cause any real desired uplifting effects, there were a few days I would take about 56mg of Buprenorphine. It didn't do anything but make me feel like hell the next few days, regardless I would still take a normal ~8mg dose. Regardless, I would still continue this logic and drain out my prescription.

I couldn't imagine I would be sober if I didn't start Buprenorphine maintenance. I don't even think I made it past day 3 without the thought of sticking a gun in my mouth and running to find whatever would relieve me. I doubt I would be much better by going with Methadone over oxy's and heroin. I've yet to have met someone that has been successful through Methadone. Either they're still on it or have just gone back to what they were doing before. I thought I was invincible to being hooked, cuz I was like you. I thought detox wasn't bad, but it got worse, way-way worse.

 

[opi8]

Apart from the condescending attitude that others have already discussed, what you think you may have done is not what I would call a taper.

Day 1: 300mg, Day 2: 0mg Day 3: 200mg, Day 4 on: 0mg. That is just skipping a day and slightly reducing your dose. That's no taper...

 

[teological]

Apart from the condescending attitude that others have already discussed, what you think you may have done is not what I would call a taper.

Day 1: 300mg, Day 2: 0mg Day 3: 200mg, Day 4 on: 0mg. That is just skipping a day and slightly reducing your dose. That's no taper...

Yeah that is basically it except the Day 3 dose is usually lower. Just enough to stop me sweating like a sauna. Then on "Day 4" the WD is basically over, on its last legs...

I just don't really understand the maintenance programs that is all...I mean why not taper it for way longer like you guys have said that some people do? Is your brain like a depressed persons brain where SSRI's can help them when they are on them for a while...why can't people taper and live without the opiate in my system is really the type of discussion I was looking for...

Sorry if my Question was rude bennyz, but yeah, that taper thing I do works exactly as I have said...I now believe that my doses aren't high enough to experience what you must be. At the peak of my WD is just the very intense sweating, shaking and getting these shivers of cold and then when I address that I get HOT and the cycle goes on...that is my biggest hate at the worst. I also get sore legs and back. I have never vomited or had diarrhea from it before.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

why can't people taper and live without the opiate in my system is really the type of discussion I was looking for...

Because as we've expressed, it is incredibly hard to get off of opiates after long term heavy abuse.. the drugs are incredibly addicting for a reason. This is why.. it's hard to get off. Just because you had an easy time coming off the small habit you had, doesn't mean you have figured anything out others haven't. In the beginning, many of us, me included, had habits that were easy to kick where was asked the same question, "What's the big deal? This isn't so bad." Well, that was before real addiction set in and our habits grew to the point where it was no longer that black and white. There's a high probability you'd go through the exact same thing in another few years if you continue to use more and more.

So honestly, the fact you're claiming you can't "get" why people can't just taper and live without opiates, is offensive and really condescending. You're pretending like you've conquered this whole beast and we all just are idiots for not figuring out what you have... The reality is you haven't even begun to feel the real sting of how bad this addiction can get, how severe the withdrawals can be, and how strong the mental hold these drugs can have on you. Come back to me then in a few years and see if you can wrap your head around it then..

 

[RTrain]

I was able to cold turkey it about 4 times over a span of 1-1/2 years. My DOC was oxycodone for all those times and my habit was similar to your habit if you figure the conversion ratio in. Now I've gone to the heroin and I find it much harder to go cold turkey. My tolerance is definitely a bit higher from it, too. I tried what I would have considered a normal get high dose of oxycodone one morning and it barely touched me. I don't doubt my ability to CT off the H, but I think I have had enough of it. Especially when I can't stay clean after the fact, it really wears on you.

I do believe if you have a relatively small habit and you haven't tried just tapering a bit and cold turkeying, but instead go straight to Suboxone or Methadone maintenance, then you are making a mistake. At least try to get clean and stay clean naturally before resorting to other methods. It baffles me when I see people with 75 mg a day hydrocodone habits on forums talking about using Suboxone to get off it. Then a Dr. gives them 8 mg bupe a day and a year later they are cursing out Suboxone cause the addiction to that is harder to kick than what they originally were dealing with, but thats a different story all together. For those who have large habits or constantly relapse, they want to stay clean and get their lives together so they need something to help them.

It doesn't make sense to compare taking a tolerance break to trying to stop using street drugs. Of course maintenance makes no sense if you are trying to lower you tolerance. Also its quite hard to taper off heroin when the potency is always in question.

 

[Boupstarnm]

Probably because people end up quitting several times. I've gone through full blown withdrawal probably 7 times in the past 10 years (not counting the countless times I caved and continued using after several days clean).

When you do something enough you begin to try things differently, or start to find out what works best for you. then as you repeat the process every few months you create your own detox based on what works best and what you can afford.

But anyway OP, I bet your withdrawal was so easy that it wouldn't even be a big deal if you started using everyday. You can kick opiates standing on your head. Whats the big deal? you've got the perfect detox method, opiates don't make you as sick as everyone else. It'd be more funny if this wasn't one of those cliche junkie lies we've all told ourselves at one time or another.

 

[RTrain]

I would put my money on the OP having just did this so called "easy" taper. I for one always felt a period of invulnerability to addiction just following kicking through the acute w/d phase. Our minds work so strangely, while going through it we wonder why we would ever have used opiates and put ourselves through such hell? Its the worst days of our lives, by far. But then once you get through that pain and sickness you somehow convince yourself that it was not that bad. You wake up after 4-5 days of hell and feel like you climbed Mt Everest. But it doesn't last long, then the PAWS set in and it sucks.

 

[bennyZA]

on "Day 4" the WD is basically over, on its last legs...

I just don't really understand the maintenance programs that is all...I mean why not taper it for way longer like you guys have said that some people do? Is your brain like a depressed persons brain where SSRI's can help them when they are on them for a while...why can't people taper and live without the opiate in my system is really the type of discussion I was looking for...

I'm going to be direct in answering your question, but by know means am I trying to be a dick. I just feel as though your question has already been answered several times and I'm just going put it out there without the fluff.

You're overlooking the fact that for most people, getting down to 2/3rds their dose (ie when you go from 300 to 200mg) will still cause unbelievable pain. So for the average addict doing your taper plan is really no different than going cold turkey. Also, to be blunt, people have much better thought out tapers than you, which you'll read about in the Opiate Withdrawal Megathread. These amazingly intricate taper plans that - by your logic - should almost completely alleviate withdrawals, but for most, they simply don't. Even with a well thought out taper plan, a bunch of meds for the side-effects, and perfect set and setting, people still fail A LOT.

As for maintenance, this again has been answered already, but I'll try and be as direct as possible: As many have written in this thread, most people cannot taper like you. You are a statistic anomaly. Many people also simply cannot withdraw. It doesn't matter why because they're are thousands of legitimate reasons that someone simply can't. Instead, people can put off withdrawing until they have a good opportunity. Before that, they can end the "street junkie" part of addiction and lead a normal life, which for some is the most important part of cleaning up. People will still get high with methadone, but they wont lose all their money, they wont have to hit the streets to score, they wont have to worry about getting cut gear, they wont have to rob and steal to feed their addiction. For many people methadone / suboxone is a life saver, literally. In fact, a few countries have realized that some people will just never get clean, so they actually have a heroin maintenance therapy.

I really hope these answered your questions. If they don't, you should really read every post over again because your questions have been answered. Also, I hope you also understand why some people think your question is very rude. It's very 'holier than thou.' When you mention the maintenance therapy, you sound like you are saying "I don't understand why people can't do what I do, which is so easy for me." Even if you did not intend it that way, many people thought you were trivializing their addiction issues by claiming you found the secret to withdrawing and people must not know what they are doing if they can't quit in 3 days. If you don't get why people feel this way, then maybe - just maybe - you don't really understand true nature of addiction and withdrawal.

Again, I'm not trying to be rude, at all. I'm just trying to be direct so that you finally get the answers. It also worth repeating that if you read the Opiate Withdrawal Megathread you'll have a better understanding of what withdrawal is like for most people and why your plan isn't as perfect as you think.

Oh and btw, this is a great summation from Rtrain:

It doesn't make sense to compare taking a tolerance break to trying to stop using street drugs.

 

[Madlyinluv13]

So right

Because as we've expressed, it is incredibly hard to get off of opiates after long term heavy abuse.. the drugs are incredibly addicting for a reason. This is why.. it's hard to get off. Just because you had an easy time coming off the small habit you had, doesn't mean you have figured anything out others haven't. In the beginning, many of us, me included, had habits that were easy to kick where was asked the same question, "What's the big deal? This isn't so bad." Well, that was before real addiction set in and our habits grew to the point where it was no longer that black and white. There's a high probability you'd go through the exact same thing in another few years if you continue to use more and more.

So honestly, the fact you're claiming you can't "get" why people can't just taper and live without opiates, is offensive and really condescending. You're pretending like you've conquered this whole beast and we all just are idiots for not figuring out what you have... The reality is you haven't even begun to feel the real sting of how bad this addiction can get, how severe the withdrawals can be, and how strong the mental hold these drugs can have on you. Come back to me then in a few years and see if you can wrap your head around it then..

I think you've said it best here.

 

[Madlyinluv13]

I'm very new to this site. I've referenced it many times for info but never posted any comments until today. I agree with what you said. In fact, I didn't even think that his question was that rude until I read your reply. This addiction is a god awful thing and people who can't sympathize with it have no business on this site in the first place. I regret the days when my problems all began. Being that I had recreationally used many other drugs in my youth, I didn't see the harm. I likes it a lot... I knew immediately, I had to find a doc..... So I did! Easy as pie. As did my husband. So we were actually making good money of it and having as many as we pleased. Too good to be true, right? Fast forward a few years. Yes we still have free supply... But find that we're not making barely any money anymore. And come the end of the month.. It's gone and there are days when I can't imagine getting out of bed. I know most people reading this this will think I'm an ass or something for this post.. But honestly. This is the first time I've ever been honest and open about it.. The guilt that I feel on a daily basis is eating me alive. I'm terrified of this train coming to a full stop. Thankfully my husband has a ton of self control and can taper me down when the rations are low. I guess I don't really have a point anymore. I just wanted to get all this off my chest. On my worst day I consume about 200-250 mg blues and a good day it's more like 90-120. I'm just curious... Where every ody else is at..

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

To OP :

As for myself I ended up on methadone because 1) I have an actual pain issue I got sick of being unattended to poorly attended to at best, I sacked my neurologist because of all the bullshit he gave me for the insanely painful problem I have with the nerves in my neck and left side of face, best thing he gave me was Clonazepam, because somehow it is useful for nerve pain, but the combos i'd get would be Tegretol (which reduced my IQ by several points) to Topamax (I'm still wondering why he insisted on scripting me this crap for 3 years, I would end up only taking the clonaz). When I found that guy with Dilaudid and HM Contins I thought I had been real lucky, but nah that stuff is horrible orally and I was sick of throwing money illegally for stuff that barely did anything so I started to shoot em up.

Secondly, I also succeeded in WD'ing myself away 3 times before but it was really difficult mentally more than anything and I had to go to college and I needed to have my semester cancelled and for that I needed a doctor's report etc. so checking myself in inpatient that uncontrolled dilaudid use made it so I saved myself from a semester with all F's due to non attendance. Also, had you seen my the state of my hands (where i'd shoot up 99% of the time, especially the right hand) you would have guessed I was way too enslaved to the act of IV'ing as much as the drug. 10 months later and its hard to tell I have anything on my left hand, my right hand still has a big scar which looks better now since all the vitamin E cream I've put on it. But it's obvious to anybody still, I just tell ppl I have dropped some liquid acid during a lab and I was one of the unlucky people to have to use those chemical showers inside labs at school.

As for methadone, it made me sleep at night and live during the day, made me stop a lot of my self-destructive ways, I bet it is the d-Methadone's NDMA antagonism...it literally cured a lot of my problems at once, the pain, the ridiculous sleep schedules, the abusing of my add meds/street speed/cocaine...all that stopped and changed for the best. Now after this time I gained 70lb and some of my blood tests are messed up so I'm gonna need some testosterone shots a couple times and get rid of the water retention methadone caused me to develop.....i'm willing to go on suboxone when possible now, thing is, it's pretty unsafe and idiotic to swiftly taper yourself off the done, I made it max to 60mg, now am at 47, will drop to around 35, I go down by 2-3mg every month but now that i'm close to the goal I'll maybe accelerate a bit.

My only problem with this is I'm wondering how suboxone will deal with the pain, it's not a great painkiller and I tested it when abusing all sorts of things, would be wearing 3-4 BuTrans patches at once and I didn't get oh also this - the mental health miracle that are (full on agonists) opioids...

It's just that my physical problem which is not visible which had me run specialists for about 7 years before they found out what it was and even still I am doubting of the final diagnosis has taken it's toll on my mental health, developed severe anxiety and rarely panic attacks due to the pain problem being ignored or under-treated at worst I was said to be malingering by a couple ER docs.

So to withdraw myself was like taking some guy's with severe back surgeries to his resume and having known almost all them opiates for prescription in 20 years away while also taking him off his antidepressants (those things do not work with me, you probably understood that now, I only get AD effect from opis) while heartbroken. Cold turkey was just not an option, I might have done something retarded during day 3-4-5.

 

[teological]

People will still get high with methadone, but they wont lose all their money, they wont have to hit the streets to score, they wont have to worry about getting cut gear, they wont have to rob and steal to feed their addiction. For many people methadone / suboxone is a life saver, literally. In fact, a few countries have realized that some people will just never get clean, so they actually have a heroin maintenance therapy.

I really hope these answered your questions. If they don't, you should really read every post over again because your questions have been answered. :

I was under the impression that you do not get high anymore, instead you are just normal but do not withdraw...since you do get high from maintenance therapy that changes the story. I was under the impression that methadone and such was like an SSRI in just helping the individual feel normal. Since you do get high from maintenance programs, I can see why people would go there...as you have mentioned to leave the dirty street junky type life behind and have your cake and eat it too.

 

[RTrain]

^Yeah but that cake is lacking something. Its like cake without the frosting. You know, its still satiating the sweet tooth, but it ain't that great.

And that unfrosted cake can get real boring at times, but you gotta sit there and think is that frosted cake really worth the lost money and pain.

 

[crzydiamond]

^this