Why do gay/bi people NEED to come out?

[wesmdow]

Precursor from Raz: OMG hopefully this will work...I am not the most technologically literate person in the world, eh...

This thread has been started for discussion of what it means to "come out", and why people feel the need to do so. It came out of a lot of discussion which came out of this thread started by MazDan.

Basically, if you want to tell your coming out story, do it there.

If you want to discuss what coming out means to you, discuss/ask why you feel it is necessary, do it here. Hope that all makes sense.


i dont see why it should be an issue, coming out.

if i was gay, i dont think id do it, soley because my sexuality doesnt affect my social life at all. i have sex with my girlfriend, talk about sex with my girlfriend, and do unsexual things with my family and friends.

if any of my friends came out to me, i wouldnt care in the least. why would i? its not like im going to have sex with them, or the issue will even COME UP...

like i said, i really dont get why, aside from just the regular banter that goes on between friends, it should be an issue coming out to them. if your friends would leave you because youre gay, they arent real friends anyway.. why would you WANT to be around them?



..i dont have to confirm my sexuality with anyone but myself, and i dont see why gays/homphobes make such a big deal out of it. i REALLY have no idea why youd want to tell your co-workers... that seems like a bad idea because UNLIKE friends, you dont get to pick them. they could be bigotted & shun you just because theyre an asshole--it isnt fair but its the way the world works. the solution? dont talk about your sexuality where its irrelevant, IE circle of friends, family, work, school, etc...

 

[tribal girl]

like i said, i really dont get why, aside from just the regular banter that goes on between friends, it should be an issue coming out to them.

Coming out to friends has never been an issue for me. But when I've come out at work before I've noticed that people have treated me differently. Not in a bad way, just in a "watch what you say around her" pussy footing sort of way. Or a "I better not get too friendly with her, she might think I fancy her" sort of way. Or atleast that's how it seems. It's just irritating

 

[wesmdow]

so then why would you come out at work?

 

[tribal girl]

^That's why I haven't in this particular job. I'm talking about my previous job.

 

[@lterEgo]

i don't think "sexuality" is something you can choose to believe in or not. it's not like the tooth fairy... sexuality just is. maybe you don't believe in labels, maybe you don't buy into the binary straight/gay dynamic, but to just say "i don't believe in sexuality" like it doesn't exist isn't quite honest in my opinion.

 

[Beatlebot]

i dont see why it should be an issue, coming out.

if i was gay, i dont think id do it, soley because my sexuality doesnt affect my social life at all. i have sex with my girlfriend, talk about sex with my girlfriend, and do unsexual things with my family and friends.

like i said, i really dont get why, aside from just the regular banter that goes on between friends, it should be an issue coming out to them. if your friends would leave you because youre gay, they arent real friends anyway.. why would you WANT to be around them?

..i dont have to confirm my sexuality with anyone but myself, and i dont see why gays/homphobes make such a big deal out of it. i REALLY have no idea why youd want to tell your co-workers... that seems like a bad idea because UNLIKE friends, you dont get to pick them. they could be bigotted & shun you just because theyre an asshole--it isnt fair but its the way the world works. the solution? dont talk about your sexuality where its irrelevant, IE circle of friends, family, work, school, etc...

I think you're kidding yourself if you think that being gay doesn't effect your work or social life at all. Say you're a gay male, hanging out with some hetero men and a very good looking girl walks past. Obviously they're going to look and make comments. Do you go along with the crowd or do you say you're not interested and 'make a big deal' about it?

In most social circles I get around in, the issue of GAY comes up at some point. Whether as an actual conversatiion topic or as a joke, "What, are you gay?"

Actually, I made a joke like that recently, and it turns out that a girl there happened to be gay. That was the first time she told me. It wasn't a big deal at all, but was she supposed to listen to me make jokes and not say anything? That seems even more weird to me.

Who you love and what gender you prefer does come up in day to day life. Even at work. I don't think hiding that part of yourself as if there's something wrong with it helps attitudes in society at all. The more people who come out and are proud of who they are help normalise it for the rest of us.

In short, if people want to be bigots, that should be made their problem, not the problem of gay people or anyone else.

 

[wesmdow]

I think you're kidding yourself if you think that being gay doesn't effect your work or social life at all. Say you're a gay male, hanging out with some hetero men and a very good looking girl walks past. Obviously they're going to look and make comments. Do you go along with the crowd or do you say you're not interested and 'make a big deal' about it?

...actually, the situation you describe there is ALL too common for me, and it makes me VERY uncomfortable. ive never been one to whistle at or approach girls. i dont really get along with those types of "hetero" guys... so the few times ive been present when a very good looking girl walks past & my friends made a big deal out of it, i found it inappropriate and embarassing.

and its not cuz im uncomfortable around girls either, i just feel like theres a time and a place for everything, and i dont share my sexuality with my friends.

 

[rashandreflex]

i don't think "sexuality" is something you can choose to believe in or not. it's not like the tooth fairy... sexuality just is. maybe you don't believe in labels, maybe you don't buy into the binary straight/gay dynamic, but to just say "i don't believe in sexuality" like it doesn't exist isn't quite honest in my opinion.

sexuality is a socially constructed category. i'm not saying i don't believe in people being in love or in relationships. what i'm saying is that society/culture have delineated people into 'heterosexual,' 'homosexual,' and 'bisexual' but that doesn't mean they are "natural kinds" (naturally occurring.) putting a label on something doesn't make it real though humans are prone to feel that way.

another complicating factor is that i am wary of the black-and-white male/female gender categories. again, i think these are largely socially constructed. thus, if i don't even think that a person really falls neatly into 'male' or 'female,' how could i understand homosexuality (being attracted to the same gender) or heterosexuality, etc.

there isn't one path to love. a lot of people seem to think that love has to start off with sexual attraction but that's not true at all. really good friendships between two people of the same "gender" can often turn into love (if the people are open enough and not intimidated by social stigma.)

 

[Chaos Butterfly]

^but many of the "out" gay men i know DO fit RIGHT FUCKING INTO the "fag" personality profile....

it almost seems as tho its a point of pride for men like that. "fags." ive got nothing against them, but as i already stated about my hetero friends, i find sexuality between myself and platonic friends inappropriate and so it makes me uncomfortable...

aside from affirming to yourself that youre actually gay, and socially "locking" yourself in that position, what is the purpose of letting people like me, who would never know/care (no offense) otherwise about your SEX life? i can only see (unfair) disadvantages...

This is the problem... there are a lot of straight people like you who don't like sexuality rubbed in their face. There are a lot of gay people who don't like sexuality rubbed in their face either. However there are a hell of a lot more straight people who love rubbing their sexuality onto pretty much anything/anyone. Heterosexuality is so ridiculously overt, it is everywhere, that a lot of gay people feel the need to try and out-do the heterosexual majority, hence we get high-camp, flouncing, mincing fags.

For a lot of gay people, they have a massive chip on their shoulder, as they may have come from a highly religious or conservative family, and have always been told that gay = wrong = evil = going to hell etc. and now that they have found a place where they can be out and proud, they take it to extremes.

The thing is, you don't see too much about the non-overt gay people, because we don't make an issue of it.

However that is not to say that we aren't forced to deal with that at work/school/with friends etc. Say for example people are talking about their weekend, or their partner/wife/etc. and they ask you (the theoretical metaphorical you ) what you think/what you did/do you have a girl/boyfriend etc, and you have the choice to lie about it, or to 'come out' as it were. Coming out is a lifetime process, because there will almost always come a situation with any new group of people that you come into contact with that sexuality will come up as an issue.

I as a gay man, get annoyed by the high-campery of that section of the gay community, and I tend to ignore it mostly, but if those actions help those people to come to terms with themselves, and help them to find a place they feel comfortable in this overall society, then good luck to them.

Unfortunately, that means for you and me, that we will have to put up with the high-camp every now and then.

CB

 

[@lterEgo]

sexuality is a socially constructed category. i'm not saying i don't believe in people being in love or in relationships. what i'm saying is that society/culture have delineated people into 'heterosexual,' 'homosexual,' and 'bisexual'

i think we're actually in agreement here, but we just have two different ideas of what "sexuality" refers to. i think the labeling, the compartmentalization, and all of that is very much socially constructed. i also agree that it sucks. i find very little value or use in separating people into simple groups and giving them limiting titles that are meant to dictate their behavior.

i just personally think of "sexuality" as more high level, and as such, neutral. attraction happens. mating rituals happen. sexual activity happens. that is how i define "sexuality", so maybe that's why i don't see the concept as something that can be denied. as far as all the weird ways we've reacted to or tried to rationalize/explain sexuality, yeah, i'm with you... it's mostly bullshit.

 

[wesmdow]

so you deny the obvious differences in physiology/behavior between males and females?

you dont think gender has an effect on a persons personality/who that person is?

i think thats kind of illogical...

 

[MazDan]

I can sort of understand where wesmdow is coming from but I also understand Chaos view as well.

And my own is changing even as we speak.

2 weeks ago I just didnt really understand why anyone came out except I guess if it made them feel better about themselves.

I took the view, whose God damn business is it. Apart from that the fact is that I am still the same person, I havent changed, I havent suddenly gained a different voice or become a massive clean person or started to act "like a raging fag".

Im still me and I dont see that the simple fact that I can admit that I can actually care deeply for another guy should change anything.

But the fact is that I know my boyfriend would love to meet my family for example.

Now in a perfect world I would just do what i have always done with a girlfriend and take em home and introduce them.

Unfortunately in the world i live in, taking my boyfriend home and introducing him as such would not provide a very comfortable atmosphere for him to be in.

Hence I am forced to have to "come out".

When is another question.


Its all to do with society and what society expects and the stupid societal pressures that are applied.
Thankfully they are changing slowly and one day just maybe the concept of having to "come out" will be dead and buried because it will be accepted that its OK to love another human being irrelevant of what sex they are.

I am a very lucky person because my life experiences have allowed me to accept that i have the capacity to love another guy and as such I have found that special person.

Putting aside societal beliefs, I just dont see it as anything other than perfectly normal and totally logical.

For the record, wesmdow, There is no way that, other than reading stuff here, that you or anyone else would know that either myself or my partner were gay.............we are exactly like you or any other heterosexual person. Neither of us are remotely interested in being anything other than your regular guy doing regular guy stuff.

 

[AlexMacktheKnife]

i dont see why it should be an issue, coming out.

if i was gay, i dont think id do it, soley because my sexuality doesnt affect my social life at all. i have sex with my girlfriend, talk about sex with my girlfriend, and do unsexual things with my family and friends.

if any of my friends came out to me, i wouldnt care in the least. why would i? its not like im going to have sex with them, or the issue will even COME UP...

like i said, i really dont get why, aside from just the regular banter that goes on between friends, it should be an issue coming out to them. if your friends would leave you because youre gay, they arent real friends anyway.. why would you WANT to be around them?



..i dont have to confirm my sexuality with anyone but myself, and i dont see why gays/homphobes make such a big deal out of it. i REALLY have no idea why youd want to tell your co-workers... that seems like a bad idea because UNLIKE friends, you dont get to pick them. they could be bigotted & shun you just because theyre an asshole--it isnt fair but its the way the world works. the solution? dont talk about your sexuality where its irrelevant, IE circle of friends, family, work, school, etc...

Coming Out 101. Why come out at all?

+ Because it's, unless otherwise informed assume they're straight, that's the rule, so when you don't voice anything to the contrary, you are deceiving people even if it's not a all-out lie like saying you're hetro and most gay people can pass as hetro pretty easily; toning down the behavior, longer hair, etc.

+ How your sexuality affects you is not limited to what happens in the bedroom, it just doesn't seem highlighted because you fit the default but someone gay, invited to a family gathering or a wedding, they sometimes get asked to "tone down their behavior" or are asked to bring a platonic friend rather than a date or significant other or asked not to speak about your "disgusting lifestyle around your grandma because she's frail".

+ It's harder to meet people when no one knows you're gay. Homosexuality is not unlike any other minority, you're alone, it's not like being born to a race or a religion (one considered a minority within your country) where you have that home base support, it's not like that when you're gay or bisexual, you feel on your own and you pretty much are.

+ Work / School life; People bother you with petty little relationship questions... constantly. It's one of the top questions asked when meeting new people; are you seeing anyone? Are you attached? Are you telling me you constantly say "it's none of your business" or do you share out of a knee jerk reaction even if you don't really care what they think? Are you particular about the language used? Do you say "girlfriend" or "wife" around men especially because "partner" is very gender neutral with a gay connotation.

Note - If you do say "it's none of your business" enough times, people think you're gay!

Coming out is not about seeking someone's approval; you don't tell someone you're gay because it greatly helps them, often it's better they don't see you in a different light... but you do it because it's the truth; to say you are not afraid and that you are not ashamed.

 

[wesmdow]

^most of those sound like arguments for not coming out?

im not saying its necessary to decieve, but rather a non-issue. if your sexuality is affecting your relationships with your friends, then you need new friends.

your example of a wedding is perfect: seems to me, that if you were gay it would only be logical to keep it under wraps around the older crowd, just like one wouldnt talk about shooting up at a wedding its prolly ill-advised to talk about gay sex. go figure. who is to say that if a gay guy brought is S/O that they arent platonic friends, so long as, like i said, they arent making a big deal out of it?

...and i say this because my uncle is gay. and my family is pretty conservative. he recently attended a wedding with his parter. there were no problems, and the question of his sexuality didnt even come up. he has never come out. i know hes gay because its FUCKING OBVIOUS!!! i mean hes lived with a flamingly gay man for 15 years & wears a ring, but around me his sexuality is a non-issue. theres no need to discuss it so we dont.

 

[Jamshyd]

Although you have some good points AMTK, I am of the opinion that one shouldn't come out unless absolutely necessary - and even then, I think twice before I do so. Why?

- Saying "I am gay" is basically saying "I like to fuck men" (in my case, guy here). Is this something I'd normally say, for no reason at all?

The idea of coming out for the sake of coming out is the idea of making this public for no reason. I might as well "come out" about other things, such as: "I clip the nails of my right hand first, then the left" or "My favourite drug is Heroin" or "I always sit on the toilet seat when urinating - never while standing." You get the idea. Most people do not really need to know these things, your bedroom activities included.

- This concerns parents mostly: do not underestimate the power of cultural-conditioning. Some parents have spent 60+ years in the REALITY that if their daughter/son is gay, then they have done something wrong. No matter what you tell them, you will never convince them otherwise. This brings unnecessary guilt to their lives (to the point of them thinking they are a total failure), even if they accept you.

- The idea that our society is progressive is an absolute myth. People might act as if they accept your homosexuality, but behind your back, its a totally different soap-opera. That is not to mention the additional latent stigmas that people aren't even aware that they have, such as an increased unconscious fear of STDs...etc.

So unless you do not mind living in ghetto-like gay communities (which in my opinion aren't exactly pleasant when you dicover that all your partners were all inside one-another at some point in history), I suggest you do not make Coming-Out-for-the-sake-of-doing-so one of your priorities this century.

 

[Raz]

People have written some awesome posts to address this question already, and I'm pretty sure I have posted this on bl before somewhere, but it never hurts to do it again.

Here are some things to think about when you ask why it's necessary to come out, or how our sexual orientation has anything to do with our lives outside the bedroom:

Heterosexual Privelege


By Linda Ketner


Heterosexual privilege, like white privilege, seems to operate largely unconsciously, with no malice. There are everyday ways in which heterosexual people enjoy unearned privilege without even recognizing their advantages.

If I am a Heterosexual:

1. I can go into a music store and find the language of my sexual orientation represented in the lyrics.

2. Television and movies reflect my relationships in widely diverse and nonstereotypical ways.

3. My children are given texts and information at school that validates my sexual orientation.

4. Society encourages me to marry and celebrates my commitment.

5. As a responsible and loving parent, I won't lose my children in a custody battle because of my sexual orientation.

6. I can easily buy postcards, books, greeting cards, and magazines featuring relationships like mine.

7. I don't have to worry about being fired or denied housing because of my sexual orientation.

8. I can be sure that if my spouse is in the hospital and incapacities, I can visit and will be consulted about any decisions that need to be made.

9. Insurance provided by my employer covers my spouse and my children.

10. Hand holding with my love is seen as acceptable and endearing.

11. I can serve my country in the military without lying or keeping silent about my family.

12. I can keep pictures of my loved one on my desk at work without fear or reprisal.

13. I will receive all of my deceased spouse's estate, tax-free.

14. I never need to change pronouns when describing the events of my life in order to protect my job, my family, or my friendships.

15. If I'm a teenager, I can enjoy dating, first loves, and all the social approval of learning to love appropriately.

16. If I'm called to work with children or to serve God (in most denominations). I don't have to violate my integrity and lie in order to keep my job.

17. As a responsible and loving adult, I can adopt without lying about my sexual orientation.

18. I feel welcomed and accepted in my church.

19. I can be certain that my children won't be harassed because of my sexual orientation.

20. I can count on my community of friends, strangers, and institutions to celebrate my love and my family, mourn my losses, and support my relationships.

Certainly, none of the "privileges" listed for heterosexuals should be denied to the holders. Expectations that neighbors will be decent to you and that your sexual orientation will not cost you your job, your children, or your life should be the norm in any principled society.

This is why we need to come out. Because everybody deserves to see themselves as being a normal part of the world, not just the straight people.

 

[ebola?]

>>but many of the "out" gay men i know DO fit RIGHT FUCKING INTO the "fag" personality profile.... >>

If you were gay, how would you signal to potential dates that you too were in fact gay? What signs would you look for to confirm that these potential dates were also gay, rather than straights who could potentially react to advances with vitriolic homophobia?

Thus, falling into stereotypy is a useful tool in this case.

ebola

 

[Cyc]

^ Agreed DD

 

[noone1]

I am bi, but currently am in a heterosexual relationship; thus I have chosen to stay heterosexual. I guess i'm a bit of an odd duck in the sexuality department, I don't think there should be any need for coming out, sexuality should be a private personal thing. Whether I bring a man or a woman home to friends/family/whatever shouldn't matter, it's the person that counts. It get's me peeved off when people celebrate their sexuality, as if revolving your lifestyle around who you fuck makes you special. I can understand it though as some people who are of an other sexuality tend to have been abused in some way or are bitter that heterosexuality is so in your face in this society, and don't get me wrong i think it's also mentally ill that heterosexuality is so worshipped and put out into society as a thing to revolve your life around as well.

 

[Jamshyd]

>>but many of the "out" gay men i know DO fit RIGHT FUCKING INTO the "fag" personality profile.... >>

If you were gay, how would you signal to potential dates that you too were in fact gay? What signs would you look for to confirm that these potential dates were also gay, rather than straights who could potentially react to advances with vitriolic homophobia?

Thus, falling into stereotypy is a useful tool in this case.

ebola

Therein lies the utter tragedy of the futile dream of "non-stereotypical" gay men (like yours truly) of finding partners that actually ARE anything remotely similar to what one might consider a committed, long-term relationship.

It simply is an impossible situation.

That is why, in my previous posts, my message to fellow homosexuals has been the same grim one: homosexuality will not see the light of day for at least several more decades, by which time the world will have new, more pressing issues. And forcing it won't work. Don't bother. Just say "fuck it" and take drugs.

Ok, that last bit was not advise. It was just my own attitude