panic in paradise
Bluelighter
... i thought that was the point of pranayama??
i recently purchased a Bansuri to aid in this endeavor.
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why can we conciously breathe ?
- Thread starter ninjadanslarbretabar
- Start date
... i thought that was the point of pranayama??
i recently purchased a Bansuri to aid in this endeavor.
Sure, pranayama practice is designed to activate the parasympathetic nervous system. Pranayama involves the willed, conscious control of breath.
But I think pranayama is different to the conscious attention on the breath in Zen meditation, in which the breath is not controlled by will (at least not in the way I was taught Zen), but is just left to ebb and flow naturally (autonomically). So Zen is a different technique to pranayama, but I wonder if it also acts to activate the parasympathetic?
Or could Zen breathing be more subtle than that? Could Zen involve a subtle, conscious control of breathing, overlaid on the natural autonomic ebb and flow? When you focus that intensely on your breath, it is hard to know if it is purely autonomic, or whether there is some conscious control involved.
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panic in paradise
Bluelighter
^... interesting, i personally feel the point after rigorous controlled breathing, is to gather the "prana" charge to attain what you have trained yourself to do. after practicing pranayama techniques to breath through the left or right nostril individually, i can do it with out closing off either consciously.
rangrz
Bluelighter
Urinary and anal sphincter? Both seem to have some level of conscious control, but WILL dilate at some point autonomously.
Ejaculation? One can exercise some, limited conscious control over it.
blink? If I toss sand in your eyes, automatic blink. But you can blink voluntary as well, and resist blinking despite noxious stimuli to a point.
Paul Muad Dib
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2009
- Messages
- 55
SPOILER ALERT:
We can controll our breath in order to... talk.
SPOILER ALERT:
The mechanisms are explanable by science.
SPOILER ALERT:
Hope this helps.
We can controll our breath in order to... talk.
SPOILER ALERT:
The mechanisms are explanable by science.
SPOILER ALERT:
Hope this helps.
Very good suggestions. I just did some research now, and apparently the anal canal and the urinary (urethral) canal both have a pair of sphincters each. The outer anal sphincter is under conscious voluntary control, but the inner sphincter is under involuntary autonomic control. The same is true of the urethral sphincters.
So in fact you don't have both conscious voluntary control and autonomic control over the same sphincter; technically, you have two different sphincter muscles in the anus, and in the urethra.
Note that:
Voluntary sphincter muscles are wired into the somatic nervous system.
Involuntary sphincter muscles are wired into a different nervous system: the autonomic nervous system (ref: here).
Voluntary muscles are generally made from skeletal muscle tissue; and involuntary muscles are generally made from smooth muscle tissue —a different tissue type.
As far I am aware, you don't get a situation where both somatic (voluntary) and autonomic (involuntary) nerves supply the same muscle, except for the breathing muscles, where there are two sets of nervous system wiring – somatic and autonomic — supplying the same breathing muscles.
Interestingly, whilst we know it is possible for us to override the involuntary breathing reflex with willful voluntary control, the reverse is also true: the involuntary breathing reflex is capable of overriding conscious control, when we are very short of oxygen (ref: control of respiration). This is why you cannot kill yourself just by voluntarily holding your breath; the involuntary (autonomic) breathing reflex will eventually override your conscious will.
Most reflexes go through autonomic nerves to control smooth muscle, organs, or bodlily functions (like blood pressure).
For example, the accommodation reflex (focusing your eye lens) is done with the ciliary muscle (a smooth muscle) in the eye, and this reflex goes through the autonomic nervous system. The accommodation reflex is coordinated by your brain.
Some reflex actions go through somatic nerves to skeletal muscle. The knee-jerk reflex, for example, goes through the somatic nerves to activate the skeletal muscles in your legs, that give that kicking action. These somatic reflexes are coordinated by nerves in your spine; the brain is either not involved, or may be partially involved, so these somatic reflexes are pretty mechanical and basic.
The blinking reflex may be an example of a muscle action that can be performed both voluntarily and autonomically. Blinking is performed with the orbicularis oculi muscle and the levator palpebrae muscle. These are both skeletal muscles, and are innervated by the somatic nervous system. However, attached to the levator palpebrae muscle is the superior tarsal muscle, which is a smooth muscle innervated by the autonomic nervous system. So it is not entirely clear to me whether conscious voluntary blinking and autonomic blinking are routed through the same nervous systems, or use the same muscles. Perhaps someone can enlighten us on this matter.
As for erections, I don't think there is any direct voluntary control over these. Sure, you may be able to generate an erection by imagining erotic scenarios, but that is not direct voluntary control. Similarly, you may be able to make you heart beat faster by imagining something very scary, or make is beat more slowly by thinking relaxing thoughts, but again, that is not direct voluntary control. You are just creating a mental state, and the autonomic responses are just reacting to that mental state.
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The aquatic ape theory of how we developed conscious breath control is a scientific theory (albeit one that was propsed by an independent thinker).
Apes themselves do not have conscious control over their breathing, so some time during the evolution from ape to homo sapien conscious breathing appeared. Did conscious breath control appear in evolutionary history due a pressing need of our ape-like ancestors to dive underwater for food, as the aquatic ape theory posits — and then only after did this ability to consciously control breath later help improve our abilities to communicate audibly?
Or did conscious breath control emerge directly from a pressing need to communicate?
My view is that the need for food, and the ability to obtain it, is usually a much stronger driver of evolutionary change. Hence the aquatic ape theory is a pretty plausible explanation for the evolutionary development of conscious breathing.
Unfortunately, a lot of mainstream science has not taken the aquatic ape theory seriously enough.
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ninjadanslarbretabar
Bluelighter
very interesting stuff you have being posting hip
thanks for posting then
spoiler alert : i like your name
and yes it seems like talking might be why we can consciously breath, which is pretty interesting because thats where all our organized culture came from, from our ability to make sense via language, via sharing ideas, creating a abstraction of what is using sound
why did we became what we are now, isnt it related to our ability to have this internal dialogue within ourself ?
we made sense of the world using speech
using our breath we gave birth to this abstraction, to all those ideas, to all that internal dialogue we entertain within
which seems to be what meditation deals with, you focus on the breathing because the breathing influence the mind world you live in, your state of consciousness is related to how you express the world to yourself via your breathing, its like how computer will use 1 and 0 to created 1010101 codes, we create codes via breathing, we breath in and out like 1 and 0 to create our conscious reality
i think that might be part of a explanation as to what i was trying to understand
thanks for posting then
spoiler alert : i like your name
and yes it seems like talking might be why we can consciously breath, which is pretty interesting because thats where all our organized culture came from, from our ability to make sense via language, via sharing ideas, creating a abstraction of what is using sound
why did we became what we are now, isnt it related to our ability to have this internal dialogue within ourself ?
we made sense of the world using speech
using our breath we gave birth to this abstraction, to all those ideas, to all that internal dialogue we entertain within
which seems to be what meditation deals with, you focus on the breathing because the breathing influence the mind world you live in, your state of consciousness is related to how you express the world to yourself via your breathing, its like how computer will use 1 and 0 to created 1010101 codes, we create codes via breathing, we breath in and out like 1 and 0 to create our conscious reality
i think that might be part of a explanation as to what i was trying to understand
panic in paradise
Bluelighter
practicing controlling this while meditating is called Knotting.
there are three-sets of "knots''.
very good point about speaking and breathing...!
all animals all communicate via the breath one way or another -
breathing to build up energy though, in order to chase to hunt, or run to survive is necessary. controlling the breath does assist in building, reserving, or releasing body-heat -
and to make music.
panic in paradise
Bluelighter
You'd need ingenuity AND conscious control of your lungs to hold your breath under water in a willful, planned fashion. The ingenuity just comes from learning, like learning any skill.
When you learn to swim, it take time to learn to coordinate your breathing and movements.
Very young human babies, of course, do possess a diving reflex, which works unconsciously.
If you throw a very young baby in the water, it has a muscular reflex that blocks the throat to stop water going down, and they automatically start moving their arms an legs. This reflex disappears after around 6 months of age.
This is a funny story: one mother I know took her baby to a swimming pool in its first few months of life, and the baby swam perfectly, just using its built-in reflex actions. Then some time later, the father decided to take the baby to the poolh. The mother said it's all very easy: "all you have to do is just place the baby in the water". So off went father and baby to the pool. The father placed the baby in the water and .... it sunk straight to the bottom! After some moments of sheer panic, having retrieved the baby, he realized that the baby had grown out of the natural diving reflex action, and so now could no longer swim. Quite amazing.
This is a good example that illustrates the difference between autonomic, pre-programmed actions, and learnt, conscious and willful actions.
In general, I don't think any land mammals have conscious control over their breath. At best they may have some diving reflex. I will see if I can find some proper references to this.
Mating calls themselves may be reflex actions, like a dog's bark is a reflex action.
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Pegasus
Ex-Bluelighter
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- Aug 15, 2006
- Messages
- 8,073
^Yeah, the diving reflex is exactly what inspired me to make the post. It's present in all mammals and is activated by cold water pressed against the face. If a mammal dives in the water and holds its breath, how can we possibly say that the animal isn't consciously holding its breath? Mammals breathe to survive, regardless of whether it is due to being underwater or due to mind games.
Lost Ego
Bluelighter
"why is it that we can consciously do it tho?"
because we were blessed with sentiousness. consciousness is the most curious thing i've come across. thats why im taking hella psych courses right now.
because we were blessed with sentiousness. consciousness is the most curious thing i've come across. thats why im taking hella psych courses right now.
I guess the way to be certain of whether an animal is consciously holding its breath when immersed in water, or just holding its breath by an autonomic diving reflex response, is to look at its anatomy. If, anatomically, the muscles involved are not wired into the somatic nervous system of the animal, then there can be no conscious control, since only the somatic nervous system mediates conscious action.
The trigger for the diving reflex in animals is quite basic: contact with cold water on the face of the animal triggers it. So you can trigger this response just by splashing some cold water on the face of the animal.
Even in adult humans, the diving reflex still operates to a degree, and if you put cold water on your face, your heart beat will slow down, as part of this diving reflex.
You mean, how or why do we have consciousness itself? That's a different question, though a related one.
One thing to ponder on: consciousness is not the same as intelligence or perception.
If you are put under an anesthetic at sufficient dosage, this will entirely remove consciousness from your brain/mind, but it will leave the rest of you brain more or less unaltered (apart from the lack of consciousness).
For example, people having operations will often hear and unconsciously remember things that are said by surgeon during the operation (which is why surgeons are told not to say anything bad like "I don't think this guy is going to survive much longer" — this would plant a bad unconscious memory into the patient). So the brain still operates to a degree without consciousness, showing that consciousness is a separate faculty of the mind, separate to intelligence and perception.
I like to think of these automatic, unconscious parts of the mind's intelligence and perception as a bit like a sophisticated digital computer, that functions blindly and automatically according to its programming — like when you drive a car without really being aware of it. But then consciousness is like an over-arching higher level of functioning that (in my view) no digital computer will ever attain, because consciousness is something different to an automatic process; consciousness works on a different level, and is most likely a transcendental phenomenon, arising from a soul, and so not entirely based in the physical world.
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panic in paradise
Bluelighter
... breath is hot.
;-)
i cant think of anything, that is not man made, that does not exchange gasses such as oxygen and carbondioxide. these materials are also difficult to burn and melt-down.
seems along any progression in the cycle of life, or chain of life what have you, breathing becomes more and more about free-will...
many cities are now building, and 're-facing' buildings in congested areas with porous air-abrasive-scrubbing type materials.
Lost Ego
Bluelighter
"i cant think of anything, that is not man made, that does not exchange gasses such as oxygen and carbondioxide. these materials are also difficult to burn and melt-down." if ur trying to derive that oxygen and carbondioxide have a play in our soul, our being. mayyyybe. i was thinking about how we all came from stardust and how poetic that is. isnt oxygen a byproduct of stars? i mean it all came from the big bang, and i believe that the energy of stars are what make us who we are. everything is holy but only we are concious lol.
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panic in paradise
Bluelighter
No, it's not directly related to the burning of oxygen; oxygen's just to supply energy. Nobody knows for sure where or how consciousness is hosted in the brain, and also nobody knows for sure how anesthetics can so easily switch off consciousness for a short while. Though there are some intriguing theories about this now.